V7 UI Impressions

[David G]

Yes. It's like we're in an Apple forum or something.

[bastafidli]

I would like to turn this discussion in positive direction. v7 is undisputably great progress. The speed enhacement, the flashiness, the internal changes shows that Sage knows how to innovate and write great software. The lack of polish, consistency and usability throughout is not anything new, it was there before and it just didn't change. I write/design/support/manage software for living and it is completely understandable. Sage had finite time and resources and did their best they could to deliver platform anybody can build on. Remember people this is just first beta. There will be more of these and this is out opportunity to point things we would like to change/improve and let Sage consider it. The best thing you can do is write about it and discuss it and have faith in Sage that it will adopt these. The format in which this is happening is not the best, since discussion forum is not proper way to track feature requests, bugs, usability issues, etc. I really hope Sage one day opens up a real bug tracking system for users which can be used for tracking these. Without it we have repeated discussions, go off topic, mix topics, etc. which is not very helpful.
But until that happens we can just discuss (unless you would think it would be hepful to open Sage bug tracker ourselves (sourforge, google) regardless of what Frey wants and suggest to users to track their problems there). So please use this discussion in a positive way. Clearly cocument what you don't like, see as a problem or would like to improve. If you have suggestions how to improve them, document them as well. I know that it feels like shouting in a empty theater since you often don't get direct response from Sage but in the current situation this is best you can do.

[samgreco]

I just want Dynamic Menus. Then I'll be happy. My old setup was so simple. One click to almost everything I used on a daily basis. DM would give that back to me. I may have to go back to SageMC until then.

So as you can guess, I like the overall LOOK of the UI, but there are still far to many clicks/layers to go through to get almost anywhere.

My original menu was
Recorded TV
Program Guide
Schedule
Movies and Videos
Online Video
Pictures
PlayDVD (Called ArcSoft for BluRay)
Tools and Settings (Everything else I couldn't get to with the above).

Simple and fast.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by samgreco

I just want Dynamic Menus. Then I'll be happy.

I agree with you on Dynamic Menus. I won't be satisfied until they are back in some form. In the childrems room, my HD200 had only 3 choices on the SageTV main menu: TV Shows, Movies and Music. My HD200 was the only one with full menus.

But this is the first public beta, and I don't mind running it the way it comes out of the box. I've already discovered some mouse issues and they've been reported.

I just prefer that people say things like "This isn't working they way I think it should" or "I'm having a problem with this".... Instead of saying things like "This sucks"

It's a beta, let's try to contribute in a constructive manner as samgreco did.

So as you can guess, I like the overall LOOK of the UI, but there are still far to many clicks/layers to go through to get almost anywhere.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by David G

Stating that Sage doesn't understand UI design is not disrespectful. Stating that they won't hire a professional to fix their UI is a fact.

Yes, I don't see how this would be disrespectful to Sage or the person who has been re-working the UI for months .

[tedson]

Your menu isn't so strange samgreco. My current SageMC based menu is almost exactly like that, very simple.

Guide
Recordings
Movies
Home Videos
Photos
Music
Settings

I can't do this under 7 yet because I can't split import directories and put the one with all the dvds in under one menu and the one with all the home videos under another. Well that and I can't adjust the menus at all without using studio. But I'm not worried. Many people want the dynamic menus. Either Sage will add that or someone will port / build a new dynamic menu plug-in. The other thing that was very important was the ability to set a pin number for a menu item. If I don't do that my enterprising kids will go into the settings section and mess everything up. Guaranteed.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by David G

Show me where I have been disrespectful. Stating that Sage doesn't understand UI design is not disrespectful. Stating that they won't hire a professional to fix their UI is a fact. Have they? No, because they think it doesn't need fixing, which is part of the problem.

I agree the UI needs a bit of tweaking -- but, if you want your criticisms to sink in enough to see actual change, broad statements like "Sage doesn't understand UI design" may not be the best way to get there. Pointing out enough specific areas that should be refined, with constructive ideas on how to refine it, may help them come to that conclusion on their own.

[samgreco]

I know I'm not worried in the least. My guess is that in a very short time most of the issues people see will be "fixed" by someone. And with the new plugin manager, we shouldn't be hearing ANY complaints about how difficult it is to install those "fixes". The plugin manager rocks!

[David G]

Originally Posted by cncb

Yes, I don't see how this would be disrespectful to Sage or the person who has been re-working the UI for months .

That person is clearly not a professional UI designer. I'm just pointing out the obvious, I don't see how that's disrespectful. If you were asked to do something that is not your area of expertise, what kind of job would you do? Would it then hurt your feelings if someone pointed out that clearly, you're not a pro in this area? If Sage crashed constantly, would you have any qualms about telling Sage to hire a better programmer? What you're saying that the UI is an area where they should get a pass for some reason, no matter the results.

[David G]

Originally Posted by brainbone

I agree the UI needs a bit of tweaking -- but, if you want your criticisms to sink in enough to see actual change, broad statements like "Sage doesn't understand UI design" may not be the best way to get there. Pointing out enough specific areas that should be refined, with constructive ideas on how to refine it, may help them come to that conclusion on their own.

I'm far from the first one to point this out to them. The UI (and resulting WAF) has been an area of controversy for years. You'd think this opportunity would have been used for a real redesign, not a coat of paint. And I've pointed out specific things, and will keep at it, but apparently when I point out an element that doesn't belong "I can't understand any viewpoint but mine."

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by osburnfamily

Tone of the question aside... It's an incredibly fair question. If SageTV Studio has the ability to re-arrange the default sage menus, the same way MCS does... Then I'd be willing to take another look a S7. I honestly don't know what STS's capabilies are. But only if it's all within the original STV resources.

Studio can do anything, it's the "IDE" that's used to create the SageTV interface. If you can see it, Studio did it.

MCS, Backup, etc... they all do the things mentioned. But it's all within the original SDK framework. Guide Logos is the only thing that actually "adds" data to to the original programming. But even that is only the actual images.

And this brings up something I really don't think you understand about SageTV, Studio, or SageMC. SageMC isn't something that's loaded on top of the stock SageTV UI, it completely replaces it. SageMC (and now Ortus and Phoenix) are developed in Studio, exactly the same way the stock STV is. The only difference is who "wrote" them.

Originally Posted by David G

Show me where I have been disrespectful. Stating that Sage doesn't understand UI design is not disrespectful.

But it's certainly not helpful. If I tell you you suck at baseball (and you're trying to play it), that doesn't help you. To be constructive I need to be able to tell you what's wrong.

Stating that they won't hire a professional to fix their UI is a fact. Have they? No....

Actually for SageTV 2 they did.

...because they think it doesn't need fixing, which is part of the problem.

Nobody seems able to actually say what's really wrong with it. Or I should say none of the people who tend to say "it's horrible" or other overly-broad, non-specific comments can distill their dislike down to constructive comments.

Originally Posted by David G

I'm far from the first one to point this out to them. The UI (and resulting WAF) has been an area of controversy for years. You'd think this opportunity would have been used for a real redesign, not a coat of paint.

I'm still at a loss for what's really wanted, what makes it so bad. I go use WMC or XBMC or Boxee and I don't see any fundamental differences. I mean they've all got main menus, and video menus, and music menus, settings menus. The one concrete thing that constantly came up was that it was bad because it looked dated (this is what I see most often on other forums) and they definitely addressed that in this version.

And I've pointed out specific things, and will keep at it, but apparently when I point out an element that doesn't belong "I can't understand any viewpoint but mine."

Maybe we need a new thread that's just for suggestions, and without the "it's horrible" rhetoric that's non constructive and distracting.

[HelenWeathers]

David G: Maybe you should consider making some concrete suggestions, i.e.

If your default for the TV submenu was "Recorded TV" then the Focused line of the Main Menu would show two choices: (Right Arrow) TV SubMenu (OK) Recorded TV. When you arrow down, the first line would change back to TV and the second line might change from Videos to two choices: (Right Arrow) Videos Submenu (OK) BD/DVD (if that was your default for Videos).
You have to invision that (Right Arrow) and (OK) would be replaced with icons of course.

That would be making a suggestion, which is not what you are currently doing.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by David G

I'm far from the first one to point this out to them. The UI (and resulting WAF) has been an area of controversy for years. You'd think this opportunity would have been used for a real redesign, not a coat of paint. And I've pointed out specific things, and will keep at it, but apparently when I point out an element that doesn't belong "I can't understand any viewpoint but mine."

I know you've made some specific points, but there are interspersed with other arguments and broad statements that, while you may not intend them to be, could be interpreted as insulting.

Many will agree that the new UI falls short of expectation -- but remember, this is a beta, you still have a change to have your voice heard.

I suggest gathering your specific recommendations in a new, clean and clear, thread, making sure that for each point you state a) the current method used, b) your understanding of its intention, c) where the current method falls short, and d) a clear vision of what can be done to improve it. Then be prepared to argue your points with those that prefer the current method.

Just as you and others suggest that SageTV pay attention to visual design, not having elements that distract from the use of the UI, I'd suggest that you keep distracting editorials to a minimum. My guess is that you want to argue about the benefits your recommendations will bring to SageTV, not if SageTV is an expert in UI design, or if a comment was insulting or not.

Remember that SageTV's resources are limited and they simply may not have the budget to bring in the design talent you suggest. While I would have liked a more polished UI out of the gates, I'm happy that they have focused on improving some of the core technology. I believe that constructive feedback will fix the UI issues over time.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by brainbone

Many will agree that the new UI falls short of expectation

Personally I don't think there's any possible way it could have actually met expectations. Many were hoping it would fix everything and that's simply not possible. Fix all the things the vocal "dislikers" want and they'd probably annoy others. For instance if they'd have just used SageMC as a starting point, they'd have ticked off a lot of us who don't really like SageMC.

IMO they did a commendable job of threading the needle.

but remember, this is a beta, you still have a change to have your voice heard.

Exactly, concrete ideas on how to increase usability, the first beta of a major version is the time to air those ideas and maybe get them incorporated.

[scoful]

Here's the facts:

We can argue until the cows come home about where what should go in the menus. My garage isn't organized like your garage and my office isn't organized like your office. My spice rack isn't alphabetized - but rather organized by what spices go with other spices.

I like bold colors on my walls - you may prefer plain white.

The fact is that with a DVR from your cable company, or some of the other systems you get what you get.

My opinion is that the foundation that Sage gives us has a LOT of functionality and even more potential.

I'm not saying something that's over here may need to be over there (although I don't have a problem with where they are). It really boils down to opinion.

I'd suggest if you've got a great idea for how this should all be done, prepare menu snapshots of how you think it should be and post them here - we'll all be happy to give you some constructive criticism of why your arrangement is better or worse.

The fact is that at least with Sage we've got opportunity to be listened to and even more so take matters into our own hands if we want to.

If you think you can do it better then I suggest you do it. If you don't think you should have to and it should be custom made for you out of the box then I'd suggest you talk to your cable or satellite provider about customizing it to exactly as you see fit and see how that goes for you.

The fact is that providing more and more content and control options produces more and more menus to utilize and configure those options.

I'm not really sure where this is going. Is what you're really looking for the ability to have 'Novice' and 'Advanced' menus?

Please illustrate how you think the menus should be - even if it's a text based example. Please be specific.

[TwistedMelon]

It's obvious that whenever someone in the forums makes any type of honest critique of SageTV they immediately get trounced upon. I can see a good quip coming from someone who spouts off about something inane or for lack of consulting even the most early pages in the manual, but this thread has really taken it over the edge.

Look, I pretty much agree with the sentiment David G has expressed. The new UI is lack-lustre. It is both non-intuitive and not elegantly implemented. I actually intensely dislike it. Whatever the root cause, I'm entitled to this opinion and so is David. If you don't agree, that's fine too. But there's no denying a certain lack of polish when compared to some other products and visual designs out there.

It pains me to see "explanations" for this icon or that icon or this element or that. Everything can be explained. Everything can be rationalized. That doesn't really change anything however. I assume that everything in the current UI is there for a reason. No arguments there. It's not the reasoning that's the problem, it's the execution of the solution, IMO.

The manual for Sage has always been behind the development of the UI. It's also been a pain to get through and itself not very intuitive nor easy to navigate. However, if you have to consult a manual with this type of product to achieve a basic level of proficiency, then that's a clear indication that the design is flawed. Documentation is important, but the UI designer's goal should be to make the need for it practically non-existant.

At the end of the day the Sage guys can put in place whatever design they want. I'm using the older UI because the new one isn't my cup of tea. I've already expressed a number of concerns elsewhere about this and I'm not about to get into specifics of the design here.

SageTV is still the best option for an HTPC in my opinion and that's not likely to change any time soon. It's been over a month since I paid to upgrade to version 7 and I'm not sorry about that because Sage has been a good value over the past six years. I don't use every aspect of the product since it doesn't all meet my needs. But what does, TV recording and watching the recorded TV, meets it quite well. There are other products to handle the other stuff like file playback and music in a more elegant manner and that's what I've been doing and will continue to do.

[David G]

Originally Posted by bastafidli

I would like to turn this discussion in positive direction. v7 is undisputably great progress. The speed enhacement, the flashiness, the internal changes shows that Sage knows how to innovate and write great software. The lack of polish, consistency and usability throughout is not anything new, it was there before and it just didn't change. I write/design/support/manage software for living and it is completely understandable. Sage had finite time and resources and did their best they could to deliver platform anybody can build on. Remember people this is just first beta. There will be more of these and this is out opportunity to point things we would like to change/improve and let Sage consider it. The best thing you can do is write about it and discuss it and have faith in Sage that it will adopt these. The format in which this is happening is not the best, since discussion forum is not proper way to track feature requests, bugs, usability issues, etc. I really hope Sage one day opens up a real bug tracking system for users which can be used for tracking these. Without it we have repeated discussions, go off topic, mix topics, etc. which is not very helpful.
But until that happens we can just discuss (unless you would think it would be hepful to open Sage bug tracker ourselves (sourforge, google) regardless of what Frey wants and suggest to users to track their problems there). So please use this discussion in a positive way. Clearly cocument what you don't like, see as a problem or would like to improve. If you have suggestions how to improve them, document them as well. I know that it feels like shouting in a empty theater since you often don't get direct response from Sage but in the current situation this is best you can do.

Fair enough. Here's something that's been bugging me for years, and wouldn't be too hard to fix: the delete function. When you hit Delete on your remote (remember, my use case is an extender, not a PC), you are then asked to confirm the deletion. The problem here is that the 'No' is highlighted by default. So you navigate to the Yes, and click Ok. That's 3 clicks to delete a program, with 3 different keys. Ugh.

Good solution, preserve the workflow but make it more palatable:
- the confirmation popup accepts another click of the Delete key as a Yes (and could indicate so with a small Delete button icon next to the Yes). Now it's just two clicks of the same button for the same workflow!

Better solution, make deletions undo-able:
- do not display a confirmation dialog. Instead, as soon as you hit the Delete key, clearly mark the program as deleted, but also give an Undo option (bound to Ok key for example). However, as soon as I navigate away, the deletion actually takes place and the program disappears. One click deletion with undo!

An alternative would be to make the deletions truly undo-able, i.e. have some place where you could unerase shows and files that you've deleted, kinda like the windows trashcan. Of course these files would be erased to make room if needed in a first in, first out basis. (Ok so I lied this one would be a lot more work by Sage.)

I think I like the second solution better.

It's worse for folder deletions, where you have to select watched or all programs, and then confirm (5 clicks, 5 different keys). For folders here's how I would adapt the second solution; click Delete once, mark watched programs as deleted, click Delete again mark all programs as deleted. If there are no watched programs in the folder, one click is enough. Again, navigating away confirms the deletion while Ok (or any other key) would undo it.

Thoughts?

[TwistedMelon]

Originally Posted by stanger89

first beta of a major version is the time to air those ideas and maybe get them incorporated.

Actually, that's not the time to air design ideas. In fact it's far too late in the process. A good PVR and media player UI can take months to design and prototype. A beta cycle is a time to find last minute bugs for something that is already (essentially) feature and design complete.

This forum is also not an adequate place to design anything. A concrete design should come from one or a small few people working for Sage and in a visual manner. It needs to be planned out and tested. Taking a suggestion or comment from the forum and then slapping it into the current design is a recipe for disaster as far as the UI goes.

It can be seen in the old UI and it can be seen in the new UI. A lot of compromises and last minute changes, making the whole thing jumbled and unintuitive.

I'm happy if Sage wraps this one up on their own and then just promises to hire a professional UI designer (or any professional designer with UI experience) for version 7.5 to implement a brand new UI. From the couple of days I spent with the new UI, it really needs to all be laid out again from the top down. And again, that's not something that's going to be hashed out in this forum nor this thread. That would be a disservice to SageTV and to all its customers.

[planetc]

I believe that in reality it doesn't matter what UI is released it will not please everybody. The flexibility that Sage offers us has enabled many infinitely customisable variations to be developed over the years and as a result an awful lot of us have a different visual experience, and different priorities in our systems.
Sage provide a solid basis from which to build an impressive kit including the tools to change it as we see fit at a reasonable cost. That is why I, among many others have stuck with it and never wandered elsewhere. We have an update which will never ever meet everyones taste nor needs, but we have the tools and the support to customise it to suit most of us.

[david1234]

Originally Posted by David G

wouldn't be too hard to fix: the delete function. When you hit Delete on your remote (remember, my use case is an extender, not a PC), you are then asked to confirm the deletion. The problem here is that the 'No' is highlighted by default. So you navigate to the Yes, and click Ok. That's 3 clicks to delete a program, with 3 different keys. Ugh.

I'd argue with you about whether this needs "fixing."

This is actually a pretty standard UI paradigm. The "non-destructive" option should always be the default. If you clicked delete by accident, it gives you an opportunity to stop before you make a change you can't undo.