V7 UI Impressions

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

Return To V6

Upon re-installing version 6, I found that Wiz.bin had been corrupted. That was good for a hour or so of panic/head-scratching, but I finally realized what was up and restored it from last night's backup. Dunno who did it... but that's not a good sign to me.

* merged with existing old topic *

As others have said release notes are your friend no version of version 7 wiz bin is backwards compatible with v6. So it isn't really a sign that is functioning as intended

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Brent

When I read about those that have affection for the "old" V6 UI's I wonder if they realize they can simply import those UI's in V7 instead of downgrading.

I see the old V6 Standard UI as something like Windows 3.1
V6 standard is a step up - certainly not perfect, but getting there. But I don't understand the reinstalling V6 because of the UI. That's just a head scratcher for me.

Well, depends on how you look at it. If you are content with the v6 UI, and don't have a need for any of the back-end features of v7, why pay for the upgrade to v7?

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

As others have said release notes are your friend no version of version 7 wiz bin is backwards compatible with v6. So it isn't really a sign that is functioning as intended

Everybody seems tb focusing on my last (and, now I know, misplaced) gripe.

What about the loss of content in the recording group's list? Doesn't that bother anybody?

How about the flashing photographs?

Truncation of the DVD names? Non-standard highlighting of the DVD names?

What about the superfluous layer in Online?

How about the main menu flyouts not happening automatically?

What about the degraded navigation response on the Atom-based netbook?

Am I the only one?

Won't be the first time..... -)

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

Everybody seems tb focusing on my last (and, now I know, misplaced) gripe.

What about the loss of content in the recording group's list? Doesn't that bother anybody?

How about the flashing photographs?

Truncation of the DVD names? Non-standard highlighting of the DVD names?

What about the superfluous layer in Online?

How about the main menu flyouts not happening automatically?

What about the degraded navigation response on the Atom-based netbook?

Am I the only one?

Won't be the first time..... -)

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I:

- Use malore menus for recordings, which contain the same info they did previously, PLUS the ability to tag files with user Categories, improving the already very customizable Malore Recordings Scree.

- Don't really use any online content other than the occasional YouTube video.

- Have never seen any 'flashing photographs'.

- Navigate my DVD's and such in a 5 column, 3 row configuration, using Phoenix fanart to show covers, so I don't see ANY title text, and the zoomed in cover is a very natural way to highlight the currently selected item.

- Don't waste my time trying to squeeze a complex and customizable, and graphically intensive UI, on an underpowered platform with no graphics acceleration (the atom).

- Created an extremely simple, single line UI Mod that causes the flyouts to happen automatically.

- And I'd say that MOST of the themes in the plugin repository get rid of the constantly changing backgrounds. I know I use MB Diamond, personally.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Tiki

According to the release notes, the version 7.18 wiz.bin is not backwardly compatible. This means that when you install Sage 7.18 or newer, it updates wiz.bin. If you later un-install and try to go back to an earlier version, they will no longer be able to use that copy of wiz.bin.

I don't believe any V7 wiz.bin is backward compatible with V6, and I believe that note is saying it's been further changed in .18 and is no longer backward compatible with prior V7 releases.

Originally Posted by Brent

When I read about those that have affection for the "old" V6 UI's I wonder if they realize they can simply import those UI's in V7 instead of downgrading.

You don't even have to do that. AFAIK V7 ships with the "SageTV3.xml" present, you just have to select it.

Originally Posted by PeteCress

Everybody seems tb focusing on my last (and, now I know, misplaced) gripe.

What about the loss of content in the recording group's list? Doesn't that bother anybody?

Not sure what you're talking about. I used the malore menus and don't notice anything missing with the stock V7 recording menu.

How about the flashing photographs?

Truncation of the DVD names? Non-standard highlighting of the DVD names?

What about the superfluous layer in Online?

How about the main menu flyouts not happening automatically?

What about the degraded navigation response on the Atom-based netbook?

Am I the only one?

Possibly, I'm not sure what you're getting at about any of them. But I don't use a netbook, just extenders.

[pkasin]

After reading through most of the responses here, I think that I can offer some benefit to the conversation.

I really enjoy SageTV v7. I am, I guess, a techie. I like fidgeting, fixing, and improving - which I am quite sure fits 99% of the folks reading these forums. The choices given are wonderful - even if I don't (as a techie) understand all of them (yes, I should read the instructions - lazy!). Of course, it takes folks like us to setup this type of a system - but we shouldn't be the only ones that aren't afraid of it. To us, it is somewhat intuitive. To others it seems counter-intuitive.

My thoughts are that either when the system (SageTV that is) is being setup, you can configure "Simple UI". This could be a very "dumbed down" version of the UI. This would allow for fewer choices, and less flexibility.

Why? Because like some other posters mentioned, not everyone is technically inclined. If you give some folks too many choices, it gets confusing. My wife looks at it and gets confused by the UI. She sometimes gets into a menu, and doesn't understand the choices offered- even though there is no reason for her to have access to it.

So, a "SETUP UI" and a "SIMPLE UI" set of choices would be wonderful. Yes, the simple should offer "DEFAULT" choices (the average dumbed down choices), which the "SETUP UI" should be as the UI is now.

Don't flame me. I'm just looking to be helpful, as I think I understand everyones' points offered here.

For myself, I am getting to really enjoy the program. Coming from BeyondTV to SageTV was difficult, at first, but I'm solidly behind this product.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

How about the main menu flyouts not happening automatically?
)

You are using the right arrow correct? and not hitting enter/select?

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

- Have never seen any 'flashing photographs'.

Home | Setup | SageTV Plugins | Installed Plugins

Select a plugin on the list (I selected "PlayOn for SageTV: Netlflix/Hulu Queue Importer").

Click on the selection.

Observe "Options for the "PlayOn for SageTV : Netflix/Hulu Queue Importer' Plugin:" dialog.

Click "View Plugin Details"

Instead of showing the details right away, it flashes the useless photograph (the one with the Ethernet patch cords) that accompaniess the setup menu.

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

You are using the right arrow correct? and not hitting enter/select?

I was trying to say that the user should not have to press RightArrow.

When the parent item is selected, the submenu flyout should occur automatically. After all, they are flashing the photograph automatically... why not display what the user wants in the first place?

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by pkasin

My thoughts are that either when the system (SageTV that is) is being setup, you can configure "Simple UI". This could be a very "dumbed down" version of the UI. This would allow for fewer choices, and less flexibility...

Why? Because like some other posters mentioned, not everyone is technically inclined...

For myself, I am getting to really enjoy the program. Coming from BeyondTV to SageTV was difficult, at first, but I'm solidly behind this product.

+1.

Maybe I'm suffering from delusions of grandeur, but I think SageTV could be a serious contender in the home media market if they got beyond their techie/enthusiast's orientation - yet still accomodated same.

The economy is still in the toilet and even when it recovers in I-don't-know-how-many-years, people are going to have to learn to live on less income. The transition to digital TV has opened up a lot more channels and if somebody wanted to push the idea of quitting cable (and it's monthly expense) in favor of OTA - using SageTV as a Tivo substitute (without Tivo's monthly fee) - I think the idea would sell.

Right now, SageTV is strictly an enthusiast's product. I note that most of the "I don't know what's bothering you about...." responses so far have been from people who work around the issues via alternative interfaces like Malore menus.

Sage doesn't even offer a decent explaination of what SageTV/Media extenders are or how they work on their home page. I'm sure somebody has Sage set up for their aged grandparents, but am equally sure that their being available for setup/support is a crucial factor.

[OneOfMany]

I have been reading your posts on your v7 experiences, and unlike many here I tend to agree with you. I have installed the 7 beta twice in order to sell myself on the new UI. Coming originally from MCE2005, I hated the default v6 interface and immediately jumped into the comfort of SageMC, and eventually tweaked it to something my family felt comfortable with.

I guess it's just where you come from that determines your level of comfort with the UI. To me, it is no different in layout than v6 except flashier, and a more updated in appearance (backend functionality notwithsanding) menuing system. It is still unituitive (according to friends I had try it) and I find the number of steps to accomplish the simple tasks of filtering and watching media to be too high.

YES, I AM A GEEK.. unfortunately not everyone who uses my Sage setup is.

Anxiously awaitng one of the new replacement skins to lure me in once again. (and hopefully for good)

Grant

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

I was trying to say that the user should not have to press RightArrow.

When the parent item is selected, the submenu flyout should occur automatically. After all, they are flashing the photograph automatically... why not display what the user wants in the first place?

But how does it know this from the Main Menu? By default a parent item is already chosen whether you just started Sage or came back to the Home screen from a previous screen or choice. If I'm on TV I don't want a submenu flying out if my intent is to move to Music or Photos or Online. Same if I went to photos and came back to the home screen. I would always have a second menu level showing which most time doesn't make sense. It's different from v6 but that doesn't make it wrong. The SageMC UI actually made use of the right arrow from the main screen. And now you have more options-press enter to get to a screen or press right arrow to have more options to choose what screen to go to. It's something to get used to but as you start really using it becomes more natural to use. And consistent thru out the UI.

Gerry

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by gplasky

But how does it know this from the Main Menu? By default a parent item is already chosen whether you just started Sage or came back to the Home screen from a previous screen or choice. If I'm on TV I don't want a submenu flying out if my intent is to move to Music or Photos or Online. Same if I went to photos and came back to the home screen. I would always have a second menu level showing which most time doesn't make sense.

I disagree. I think you could always show the sub-menu expanded, but leave the focus on the parent menu until you use the arrows to move over.
This would be a little more intuitive for some (especially if you didn't know exactly what you were looking for), since you could see the contents of the sub-menus more easily without having to arrow over. Although, I think if they took this approach, the menus would seem cluttered and they may be a little less responsive on slower systems.
I don't really have a very strong opinion as to which method would be better (I guess I would have to try both to see which I liked better).

Personally, the only thing I don't like about the new navigation scheme is the issue where the default action for some menu items (marked with a *) changes depending on what you did last. To me this is very confusing.

[darcilicious]

I disagree. I think you could always show the sub-menu expanded, but leave the focus on the parent menu until you use the arrows to move over.

I like this suggestin. A lot.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

I was trying to say that the user should not have to press RightArrow.

When the parent item is selected, the submenu flyout should occur automatically. After all, they are flashing the photograph automatically... why not display what the user wants in the first place?

In case you missed it in fuzzies comment there is a plugin that does just that they submenu's are always opened when scrolling up and down.

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by gplasky

It's different from v6 but that doesn't make it wrong.

I agree and am not thinking of "right" vs "wrong": except for cases where the official MS UI standards are applicable it's all a matter of taste.

For my money, though, I prefer minimal keystrokes and maximum data on the screen at any given time. A developer should, IMHO, always be trying to minimize the need for the user to drill down - communsurate with reasonable screen response, of course.

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

In case you missed it in fuzzies comment there is a plugin that does just that they submenu's are always opened when scrolling up and down.

I did miss it.

Thanks. That, plus the prospect of locating those bitmaps and driving a stake through their little hearts by substituting all-black analogs might draw me back to 7.

[darcilicious]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

In case you missed it in fuzzies comment there is a plugin that does just that they submenu's are always opened when scrolling up and down.

- Created an extremely simple, single line UI Mod that causes the flyouts to happen automatically.

Where's this plugin precisely -- or what is it called? I'm looking under UI Mod, sorted by author and I only see two by Fuzzy, neither have anything with getting the submenu flyout in place. Or perhaps he hasn't shared this mod with anyone?

[nick_l]

And I utterly disagree. I dont want to see every single choice available all the time. Clean and concise. (I would like and "out of the box" solution to editing the order of the items though.)

Since I started here Ill just continue: you made another comment that, in your opinion, a developer should alway strive for the 'least amount of drill-down". My own personal opinion is that the developer should strive for clarity, consistency and usability. Having every single option available all the time is not user friendly (It's also why I find it annoying that "Configuration Wizard" is the first choice in the setup menu. How often does that really get used). I liken it to the "Ribbon" in MS Office. Most people hated it at first. But then people used it and realized that they don't need to see every single option all the time.

There is also a logical fallacy that you should be able to sit anyone down in front of the tv and they should be able to just use it immediately. We aren't talking about a toaster or a toilet. There is complexity in the system. We expect it to do a multitude of things but somehow expect that any toddler or grandmother should instantly understand. You would never pop granny in the seat of a skid loader or in the middle of a halo 3 game on the X-Box and just expect her to know what to do. Tech can take a little while to master (hell most people still have no clue how a computer works, other than click the "e" for the internet). Note that Im not saying Sage7 is perfect. There are a lot of small issues like items being named different things on different screens, default actions changing per screen, etc.

For better or for worse, eye candy is the thing. We've been clamoring for years (well, at least I have) for sage to ad some zing to its default interface, as it was a major disincentive for many people. Well, here it is. It's not perfect, but it's a damn site better than it was (in my opinion anyhow). The other major thing to keep in mind, and I don't think it's said enough: you can still use the version 6 ui, or the SageMC ui. They still work with Sage7, so you get the advances and you can sill have your familiar interface.

Nick

P.s. you keep talking about the "flashing" pictures. There are NO flashing pictures. There are background images that change per main menu category, but they do not flash. They should transition smoothly as you go from one category to the next. After they appear on screen there should be no change in them as you drill further into a particular category, such as setup, which i believe you mentioned as an example. If they are flickering of flashing they something is not right with your install or hardware (although I will say on my HD100 there can be a 2-3 second lag between moving to a category and the picture changing).

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by darcilicious

Where's this plugin precisely -- or what is it called? I'm looking under UI Mod, sorted by author and I only see two by Fuzzy, neither have anything with getting the submenu flyout in place. Or perhaps he hasn't shared this mod with anyone?

Oh it's shared... It's in there, cryptically called 'Always Show SubMenus' by Fuzzy. Not sure why you are only showing 2 plugins from me.