Ceton extender beta shipping in Sept

[bcjenkins]

I'll be sending mine back for a refund. For whatever reason, what has worked brilliantly for SageTV (Same server, network, etc.) seems to be sucking for WMC, the Echo and Xbox 360. I am sure there is a ton of optimizations I could do on a WMC system, but I am not sure I want to spend the time just yet. I also have a feeling the Echo will go through a series of price reductions as it is hard to justify when comparing it to a full blown Xbox. There are the rumors that MS is going to bring a Entertainment device to the next launch, too.

The good news is that my wife has taken back everything bad she has said about SageTV in the past and is begging me to switch back. Now if I could convince her to move to KC that would be golden.

B

[reggie14]

I'm leaning towards sending it back too. I had pretty much made up my mind about that a week ago, but over Thanksgiving my Sage boxes crashed a few times, which really makes me want to find an alternative. So, out of desperation I might keept the Echo around so I can continue to monitor Ceton's progress. But in its current state I find it completely unusable.

Apparently Ceton is sending out an email today with some sort of update in it. That might push me one way or the other.

[mbowling]

I cancelled my Echo pre-order and decided to stick with SageTV. The combination of the solid server software, my HD200 extender, plus the third-party plugins, make SageTV the best DVR system available.

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I'm leaning towards sending it back too. I had pretty much made up my mind about that a week ago, but over Thanksgiving my Sage boxes crashed a few times, which really makes me want to find an alternative. So, out of desperation I might keept the Echo around so I can continue to monitor Ceton's progress. But in its current state I find it completely unusable.

Apparently Ceton is sending out an email today with some sort of update in it. That might push me one way or the other.

To say this beta has been a train wreck would be a complement. I am going to hold on to the Echo just to see where it goes.

Today is Tuesday, Newegg charging credit cards for the released units, and there is still no 1080 anything that is watchable and no AC-3 or above anything. TOS isn't even enabled yet. How much testing do they think there is going to be done even if they release new FW right now.

I mean are they going to send out emails on Friday saying units shipped and actually send themm next week and push new FW then??? That wouldn't be unheard of but not much in th eway of added support if thats the case. JMO.

[cncb]

I cancelled my pre-order yesterday when I saw the Amazon listing worrying that they might ship the Newegg units early and look what happened today (I was lucky for once). So many basic issues left unresolved and Newegg has hefty restocking fees. I'm not really sure why they even had a beta since the outstanding issues should have been obvious to Ceton and they're not even giving beta users a chance to "test" the fixes?

[Skybolt]

Nope no chance to test the issues, maybe over the weekend.

1080 and a settings menu (with plugin) within the next 24hrs ...

They even mention adding Android ICS in the next month. Not quite sure why they beta tested the Echo. Newegg orders have already shipped...

And my Echo is unplugged, while I watch tv with the xbox.

[reggie14]

I imagine they felt like they had to have some sort of beta testing program after publicly saying they were going to have one. It would look pretty suspicious otherwise. I'm sure Ceton wanted a longer beta, but they clearly ran into development difficulties along the way. The beta itself seems like a joke. Based on the number of problems, the Ceton developers easily would have had their hands full just fixing stuff their own testers and users could find.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I'm sure Ceton wanted a longer beta, but they clearly ran into development difficulties along the way.

Yeah, like trying to dual boot Android. Seriously? Maybe you should get the fundamentals working before you start "playing" with fun stuff.

Frankly I'm amazed they managed to get the InfiniTV developed from what I've seen/heard with the Echo beta. Unless they hired all noobs to do the Echo.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yeah, like trying to dual boot Android. Seriously? Maybe you should get the fundamentals working before you start "playing" with fun stuff.

Dual booting?

If you think about it putting it on there makes a lot of sense, WMC extenders are very limited devices. Android (browser + apps) is an end-run around many of those limitations.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Frankly I'm amazed they managed to get the InfiniTV developed from what I've seen/heard with the Echo beta. Unless they hired all noobs to do the Echo.

It's easy to make blind assertions when you don't understand how WMC works. These are incomparable things.

I can agree that the beta needs more time, and won't equal the HD300* at least at launch, but that's not the goal. All they have to do is match the 360 and for every non-gamer that uses WMC it's a <5W, passively cooled no-brainer. It's looking likely that they will get there before launch (later today), the problem isn't w/ the device but your expectations around it.

More importantly we as a community need to decide how we process pre-release results. The crap that you all are giving Ceton is only known because they ran a public beta process w/o NDAs. While this could be a case study in why most companies don't do that, I'd rather have an open process like this than the alternative. Punishing companies for openness encourages less disclosure.

* To provide some perspective the HD300 isn't perfect either. Even now it's not possible for me to run the latest beta FW (which fixes many issues that I have w/ it, including one where it can't WOL my HTPC because it assumes every MAC address starts w/ 00) because DTS-MA bit streaming is broken.

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by babgvant

... The crap that you all are giving Ceton is only known because they ran a public beta process w/o NDAs. While this could be a case study in why most companies don't do that, I'd rather have an open process like this than the alternative. Punishing companies for openness encourages less disclosure. ...

I guess I should stand up and be counted as I am probably the biggest offender, not stanger by far.

Your are part of the beta, and I know you also know all of the hipe Ceton put forth including getting other companies involved (DTS) with press releases. I think with all of the whispering of promises over the past 6+ months over at AVS, by Ceton, this is to be expected and some poor choices on Ceton's part allowed this to happen.

I am not sure when you received your beta unit, but I received mine in the 2nd week, and not much has changed since that point. Very few people are calling the kettle black, but are sticking up for poor planning, I just don't get it.

I fully understand what most likely happended, but that has not been acknowladged in any form. I also understand that I may have been a little rough on them, but when pretty much all is ignored or unacknowladged what do you expect, thanks for a great job? If this were handled differantly I think most people that are negitive now, would have been positive posters instead, I know that to be true for me.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Dual booting?

If you think about it putting it on there makes a lot of sense, WMC extenders are very limited devices. Android (browser + apps) is an end-run around many of those limitations.

Except I'd rather have two devices that I can switch between via automation on my remote than have to manually restart and wait for booting a single device.

It's easy to make blind assertions when you don't understand how WMC works. These are incomparable things.

To be clear, I'm disappointed the Echo's limitations, but not surprised given it's WMC foundations (I was somewhat expecting it).

What my comment you quoted is referring to is the way Ceton has handled the pre-beta and beta, the lack of solid information, the vagueries of what they've said, and the sorry state of the device when they finally did get it into the hands of beta testers.

I never really followed the InfiniTV, but with what I'd heard about Ceton I thought they were a lot like SageTV, but what I've seen from the Echo beta, they are completely the opposite.

I can agree that the beta needs more time, and won't equal the HD300* at least at launch, but that's not the goal.

I will just point out that, intentionally or not, we were lead to be believe in the months leading up to the beta (specifically the time right around CES) that the Echo would be a lot more than a regular MCX when it is in fact, nothing more than a standard MCX.

All they have to do is match the 360 and for every non-gamer that uses WMC it's a <5W, passively cooled no-brainer. It's looking likely that they will get there before launch (later today), the problem isn't w/ the device but your expectations around it.

Except it costs as much as a 360, so even if you're not a gamer you're still missing out on Netflix and Amazon and all the other stuff the Xbox can do. <5W and passive cooling will be good enough for some, but probably not a lot.

More importantly we as a community need to decide how we process pre-release results. The crap that you all are giving Ceton is only known because they ran a public beta process w/o NDAs. While this could be a case study in why most companies don't do that, I'd rather have an open process like this than the alternative. Punishing companies for openness encourages less disclosure.

I agree they should have had an NDA process. That said, the SageTV HDxxx betas that were private and NDA'd were much, much smoother than this and we had a lot better support from SageTV than Ceton seems to be giving the Echo beta participans.

* To provide some perspective the HD300 isn't perfect either. Even now it's not possible for me to run the latest beta FW (which fixes many issues that I have w/ it, including one where it can't WOL my HTPC because it assumes every MAC address starts w/ 00) because DTS-MA bit streaming is broken.

Yup, one of the reasons I was excited by the Echo. But it's pretty clear it will never be an acceptable solution for that (given WMC's limitations) so I'll keep plugging along with my HD300 and maybe get a Dune or something someday.

FWIW, to contrast, IIRC the HD100, SageTV's first attempt at an extender arrived with selectable output resolutions, DD/DTS passthrough, DD decoding, very basic things that I think would be the first thing you'd want to get working on an Extender for any platform.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Skybolt

Your are part of the beta, and I know you also know all of the hipe Ceton put forth including getting other companies involved (DTS) with press releases. I think with all of the whispering of promises over the past 6+ months over at AVS, by Ceton, this is to be expected and some poor choices on Ceton's part allowed this to happen.

Allowed what to happen? That we know things about a beta product?

Originally Posted by Skybolt

I fully understand what most likely happended, but that has not been acknowladged in any form. I also understand that I may have been a little rough on them, but when pretty much all is ignored or unacknowladged what do you expect, thanks for a great job? If this were handled differantly I think most people that are negitive now, would have been positive posters instead, I know that to be true for me.

External circumstances are just excuses, if the product doesn't deliver that's all that will matter. My point isn't that we shouldn't judge, or even judge harshly, when the appropriate time comes - just that the time for that hasn't arrived yet and when we do, it needs to be in the appropriate context.

In many areas WMC is a huge step backwards in functionality compared to what SageTV can offer so while I understand the desire for SageTV users to examine exit strategies, I don't understand why anyone who still uses it as their primary/preferred DVR would participate in the Echo beta. Obviously the hope is that one day it will be good enough (either offering the same features or via feature set offset), but the device was never going to be a perfect replacement for the HD300 day one.

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Allowed what to happen? That we know things about a beta product?

Negitive comments, not having NDA's

External circumstances are just excuses, if the product doesn't deliver that's all that will matter. My point isn't that we shouldn't judge, or even judge harshly, when the appropriate time comes - just that the time for that hasn't arrived yet and when we do, it needs to be in the appropriate context.

I agree that that in the end a good working product is all that matters, but two people already received there Newegg orders today and have posted Q's on AVS. So wouldn't that be now?

In many areas WMC is a huge step backwards in functionality compared to what SageTV can offer so while I understand the desire for SageTV users to examine exit strategies, I don't understand why anyone who still uses it as their primary/preferred DVR would participate in the Echo beta. ...

WMC wil never be what Sage is/was, it can't, not even Sage can be with the the addition of CC, as you know. And it is because of CC that I don't use sage that much anymore, and 7MC is my primary DVR for Tv at this pont. As for participating in the beta, I think even with negative outlook on the Echo, gave more to the beta than most. Your on the Ceton forum/tracker.

If you run 7MC from an HTPC, 7MC can be more than Sage is/was, baring menu layout etc. It's the extender side of things which really suck, and thats where the Echo should be able to shine. And why most of us Sage users are interested in it.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Except I'd rather have two devices that I can switch between via automation on my remote than have to manually restart and wait for booting a single device.

That's a pretty big assumption about how it will work.

Originally Posted by stanger89

What my comment you quoted is referring to is the way Ceton has handled the pre-beta and beta, the lack of solid information, the vagueries of what they've said, and the sorry state of the device when they finally did get it into the hands of beta testers.

Beta is beta. We've gotten too used to beta = done but I don't want to support it yet. Remember that this was opt in.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I never really followed the InfiniTV, but with what I'd heard about Ceton I thought they were a lot like SageTV, but what I've seen from the Echo beta, they are completely the opposite.

I don't agree with that, but very different for sure.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I will just point out that, intentionally or not, we were lead to be believe in the months leading up to the beta (specifically the time right around CES) that the Echo would be a lot more than a regular MCX when it is in fact, nothing more than a standard MCX.

I think you need to add an "at launch" to the end of that.

I agree that the launch feature set is not consistent with what I wanted from the device, but most (if not all) of the MCX+ feature required a Q - they were always clear about that (even at CES when I met w/ them).

Originally Posted by stanger89

Except it costs as much as a 360, so even if you're not a gamer you're still missing out on Netflix and Amazon and all the other stuff the Xbox can do. <5W and passive cooling will be good enough for some, but probably not a lot.

Isn't the 360 $200? If you want Netflix you need a Live sub (IIRC $50/yr), for the difference you could easily add a OTT streamer and still take up less space/electricity than the 360.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I agree they should have had an NDA process. That said, the SageTV HDxxx betas that were private and NDA'd were much, much smoother than this and we had a lot better support from SageTV than Ceton seems to be giving the Echo beta participans.

I don't agree that they should have NDA'd just that an NDA would slow the flow of information and create better spin around the device.

In my experience SageTV's betas were run better, but by the time I came here it was several versions old. AFAIK, this is the first major public beta Ceton's undertaken, I certainly agree that it could have been better but ultimately it only matters what the device can do in the end - something it is still to early to judge.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yup, one of the reasons I was excited by the Echo. But it's pretty clear it will never be an acceptable solution for that (given WMC's limitations) so I'll keep plugging along with my HD300 and maybe get a Dune or something someday.

The biggest limitation in WMC's MCX experience is its dependance on server side MF container support. Fix that, and many of the file limitations go away - so I wouldn't say never .

Originally Posted by stanger89

FWIW, to contrast, IIRC the HD100, SageTV's first attempt at an extender arrived with selectable output resolutions, DD/DTS passthrough, DD decoding, very basic things that I think would be the first thing you'd want to get working on an Extender for any platform.

AFAIK the 360 doesn't support any of those features except DD pass-through/decoding. So your expectations aren't consistent w/ what the ecosystem currently delivers.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Skybolt

Negitive comments, not having NDA's

An NDA would have helped Ceton control messaging, but it's up to us to decide how to interpret the information we have available.

Originally Posted by Skybolt

I agree that that in the end a good working product is all that matters, but two people already received there Newegg orders today and have posted Q's on AVS. So wouldn't that be now?

Sounds like Newegg messed up. Launch is 11/30.

Originally Posted by Skybolt

If you run 7MC from an HTPC, 7MC can be more than Sage is/was, baring menu layout etc. It's the extender side of things which really suck, and thats where the Echo should be able to shine. And why most of us Sage users are interested in it.

1) Live TV doesn't work right if you use more than one PC client.

2) I don't agree with that. SageTV was more, only reason I don't use it anymore is because when it died there were blocking, outstanding bugs that will never get fixed. Only so long I could ignore them.

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by babgvant

... but it's up to us to decide how to interpret the information we have available.

Agreed, being the beter person is not always that easy.

1) Live TV doesn't work right if you use more than one PC client.

Totally agree with you, thats why I said extenders, 7MC by itself is fine, DRM isn't. Extenders are limited to say the least.

2) I don't agree with that. SageTV was more, only reason I don't use it anymore is because when it died there were blocking, outstanding bugs that will never get fixed. Only so long I could ignore them.

Yeah, that's a tough one isn't it. The fanart, customizing etc, but direct paly back PC vs PC, 7MC will at least match sage and also add more support, Netflix for one. But the extras like this comunity, the customizing capabilities etc. and people like your self who have contributed so much, are probably the best reason to like sage.

But the "never going to get fixed" part is why I am switching. Should Jeff and team bring there new baby public, outside of KC, I will most likely be all over that.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by babgvant

That's a pretty big assumption about how it will work.

I don't think it's that big. It doesn't run Android today, which means that the MCX software runs in it's own OS of sorts. And I don't think you'd be able to (want to) run Android on top of the MCX OS, so that leaves dual booting, rebooting into MCX mode.

But even if it's less clear cut than that, the HD200/HD300 have to "reboot" into standalone mode, and that was enough of a pain that very few ever did that.

I'd be surprised if it was seamless to switch from MCX to Android.

I agree that the launch feature set is not consistent with what I wanted from the device, but most (if not all) of the MCX+ feature required a Q - they were always clear about that (even at CES when I met w/ them).

That's not how I remember it. I remember them saying some stuff (skinning is the only thing I remember called out specifically) would require the Q, but I remember asking a number of times and looking all over trying to figure out if the Echo would need the Q for MCX+ funcitonality. If they'd just said at the outset, that anything MCX+ would require the Q it would have reduced confusion greatly.

Though it would have reduced excitement greatly too.

I don't agree that they should have NDA'd just that an NDA would slow the flow of information and create better spin around the device.

With the state the Echo is still in, IMO it's not ready for a public beta.

In my experience SageTV's betas were run better, but by the time I came here it was several versions old. AFAIK, this is the first major public beta Ceton's undertaken, I certainly agree that it could have been better but ultimately it only matters what the device can do in the end - something it is still to early to judge.

Is it, people have retail versions already.

The biggest limitation in WMC's MCX experience is its dependance on server side MF container support. Fix that, and many of the file limitations go away - so I wouldn't say never .

But no splitter can add subtite, or chapter support? Audio selection?

AFAIK the 360 doesn't support any of those features except DD pass-through/decoding. So your expectations aren't consistent w/ what the ecosystem currently delivers.

Which is why I don't use WMC (despite having a 360 in my HT since launch) and why I was so excited by the Echo and the implication it would do a lot more.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I don't think it's that big. It doesn't run Android today, which means that the MCX software runs in it's own OS of sorts.

MCX can run any OS that supports RDP. IIRC the early ones ran Linux.

Originally Posted by stanger89

And I don't think you'd be able to (want to) run Android on top of the MCX OS, so that leaves dual booting, rebooting into MCX mode.

But even if it's less clear cut than that, the HD200/HD300 have to "reboot" into standalone mode, and that was enough of a pain that very few ever did that.

I'd be surprised if it was seamless to switch from MCX to Android.

It's possible, but the point here is that we don't know. If you want to speculate wildly about how awful it will be, that's fine I guess...

Originally Posted by stanger89

That's not how I remember it. I remember them saying some stuff (skinning is the only thing I remember called out specifically) would require the Q, but I remember asking a number of times and looking all over trying to figure out if the Echo would need the Q for MCX+ funcitonality. If they'd just said at the outset, that anything MCX+ would require the Q it would have reduced confusion greatly.

It isn't that clear cut, some of the HW specific features like CEC should make it in (although not by launch).

I can't speak to your recollection, but I was there... And a lot has changed since then (no Q, different SOC, etc).

Originally Posted by stanger89

With the state the Echo is still in, IMO it's not ready for a public beta.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is that opt-in = opt-in, and beta = unfinished.

That said, the release FW will probably be a bit rough around the edges.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Is it, people have retail versions already.

I'm not sure that they should have it, and that doesn't shift the context (360 comparison not HD300).

Originally Posted by stanger89

But no splitter can add subtite, or chapter support? Audio selection?

Splitters generally implement subtitle (output) and chapter support, at least in DS. The app needs to support the implementation, but if there are interfaces for that defined (there are in DS) it isn't hard.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Which is why I don't use WMC (despite having a 360 in my HT since launch) and why I was so excited by the Echo and the implication it would do a lot more.

I understand that people are disappointed, but I'm not sure that the disappointment is warranted in most cases.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

That's not how I remember it. I remember them saying some stuff (skinning is the only thing I remember called out specifically) would require the Q, but I remember asking a number of times and looking all over trying to figure out if the Echo would need the Q for MCX+ funcitonality. If they'd just said at the outset, that anything MCX+ would require the Q it would have reduced confusion greatly.

So I went back to what I wrote about the Echo last Jan:

In addition to the Q, they also announced an extender device named "Echo"; which besides [finally] providing an alternative to the Xbox 360 to those who prefer TV without fan-based accompaniment for Windows Media Center PCs also enhances the current extender experience with additional media features when used with the Q.

and

Ceton Echo:
- Based on Intel CE4100, so plenty of CPU, GPU (i.e. full BD video), and support for HBR audio at the hardware level
- Operates in two modes: standard Windows Media Extender or as a Q Extender which offers a more enhanced feature set
- Currently planned as a passively cooled device
- HDMI CEC support
- Container support in Q Extender mode is unknown at this time, Media Center mode works like a [quiet] 360
...

The SOC changed (I need to find out if it supports HBR), but two things should be clear: they were unwilling to commit to features like HBR support, codecs, etc., and a lot was unknown.

Maybe you should start getting your HTPC news from Missing Remote :P

[reggie14]

I'm trying to create some test files to see what the Echo can and can't play back. Do you know of a good way to create some H.264 and VC-1 test files in a container format natively supported by WMC? I'm having trouble finding a VC-1 encoder and remuxers to WTV or MPG.