Ceton extender beta shipping in Sept

[reggie14]

I'm a little surprised there aren't very many reviews of the Echo yet. Andy's review is pretty much the only one.

The user reviews on Amazon are pretty brutal. Newegg's are more positive. I expected to see more complaints about 1080i playback.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I'm a little surprised there aren't very many reviews of the Echo yet.

When you like a product and know that it just needs more time in the oven it's hard to write a review that you know will reflect poorly on it. I was surprised that no one else published when the review embargo date passed, had I known I wouldn't have stayed up to 1:30AM to get it done .

Originally Posted by reggie14

Andy's review is pretty much the only one.

Are there questions that you think it doesn't answer?

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Are there questions that you think it doesn't answer?

I think your review hits most of the major points, but I can't help but feel like it glosses over some of the major issues. I figured you were probably biting your tongue a bit because you didn't want to come down too hard on Ceton.

I'm starting to think that maybe I'm crazy, but it really seems like the Echo's currently handling of 1080i material is a killer. I can't stand watching 1080i material on the thing. Until that's fixed I don't see how anyone could actually use the Echo on a daily basis. Your review mentions the problem, but discussion of that problem is limited to a half a sentence. It almost seems hidden in your review. In contract, the remote control (which I agree is terrible) gets a whole paragraph. I'm really starting to wonder if the effect is worse on my TV than other folks' TVs.

Also, you quickly glossed over container/decoder support. This probably made sense for some type of "first look" style of review, but I think a full review of the Echo should more clearly spell out what it can and can't do. It's a pretty complicated situation right now. There's only a limited number of containers directly supported by WMC. Even if you use a natively supported container, the Echo still struggles when bitrates on supported codecs get high. I haven't tried it myself yet, but other people appear to be saying combinations of containers and A/V codecs are problematic. Even though wtv, H.264 and AC-3 are all individually supported, when you put them together you get choppy playback. Also, I think given your knowledge of WMC, MediaFoundation and splitters, you're in a good position to comment on the long-term prospects of better container support.

I think most of us still find menu performance to be a little jerky. Personally I don't find it terrible, although I probably wouldn't call it smooth either. Speed of navigation is a related, but slightly different, issue. I liked how you included the video of the Echo in action, although these are things that are a little hard to see in an Youtube video without actually using it first-hand.

Also, I think color balance is still a little off in the post recent firmware. It's gotten better over time, but things still look a little over-saturated and red to my eye. I didn't notice the black level clipping until you mentioned it, but now I definitely see it.

[babgvant]

Thanks for the feedback. I've tried to explain why I made the decisions that I did below.

This would have been a great conversation to have in the comments section of the review .

Originally Posted by reggie14

I'm starting to think that maybe I'm crazy, but it really seems like the Echo's currently handling of 1080i material is a killer. I can't stand watching 1080i material on the thing. Until that's fixed I don't see how anyone could actually use the Echo on a daily basis. Your review mentions the problem, but discussion of that problem is limited to a half a sentence. It almost seems hidden in your review. In contract, the remote control (which I agree is terrible) gets a whole paragraph. I'm really starting to wonder if the effect is worse on my TV than other folks' TVs.

It's not just you.

Cadence detection is broken so DI can't work. Un-DI'd video will be horrible to watch because of the shredding, other than to spell out exactly what that entails (which should be beyond the scope of a review) I struggled to find something else to say about DI performance (besides that it doesn't work and a significant amount of the stuff it's supposed to be good at is interlaced) that wouldn't come off as me beating a dead horse. I think it's important to be fair to everyone in a review.

Originally Posted by reggie14

Also, you quickly glossed over container/decoder support. This probably made sense for some type of "first look" style of review, but I think a full review of the Echo should more clearly spell out what it can and can't do. It's a pretty complicated situation right now. There's only a limited number of containers directly supported by WMC. Even if you use a natively supported container, the Echo still struggles when bitrates on supported codecs get high. I haven't tried it myself yet, but other people appear to be saying combinations of containers and A/V codecs are problematic. Even though wtv, H.264 and AC-3 are all individually supported, when you put them together you get choppy playback. Also, I think given your knowledge of WMC, MediaFoundation and splitters, you're in a good position to comment on the long-term prospects of better container support.

I left it out because it's not specific to the Echo. IMO, it belongs in a review of WMC. It's a fair criticism, but I didn't want to review WMC.

Defining the scope of a review is sometimes difficult, especially when it is so tightly linked to another product. Also in general I prefer not to spend too much time on things that aren't definitive, in this case it's too difficult to nail down what works (unless you go straight OOTB, which is somewhat impractical) to "write the book" on it like you can with the HD300 or similar devices.

Originally Posted by reggie14

Also, I think color balance is still a little off in the post recent firmware. It's gotten better over time, but things still look a little over-saturated and red to my eye. I didn't notice the black level clipping until you mentioned it, but now I definitely see it.

I think video on the Echo is too warm as well, but I wasn't able to prove that with a test pattern. Also, I think it's possible that the source of the over saturation observation is really the incorrect handling of brightness (luma).

Black is definitely wrong, but if you look at the colorspace screenshots white is showing over 235. Now this isn't a problem per se (why I didn't highlight it) since 235+ has been found in real content, but it's possible that it indicates a shift in luma; similar to how pumping brightness on a TV produces a blown out picture.

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by reggie14

... I'm starting to think that maybe I'm crazy, but it really seems like the Echo's currently handling of 1080i material is a killer. I can't stand watching 1080i material on the thing. Until that's fixed I don't see how anyone could actually use the Echo on a daily basis. Your review mentions the problem, but discussion of that problem is limited to a half a sentence. It almost seems hidden in your review. In contract, the remote control (which I agree is terrible) gets a whole paragraph. I'm really starting to wonder if the effect is worse on my TV than other folks' TVs. ...

I have a 70" Sharp which makes the Echo unwatchable in every vodeo mode.
I have to put the Echo in the bedroom and restricted the video to 720p, where there is a 42" screen. This isn't bad when your going to sleep, it kinda helps.

Your not alone with this issue. I started this issue in the but tracker and it was closed, then I reopeneded it and it was shuffled off to another 1080 bug that is still listed.

I am not sure that the prototype chips which are in the beta units are printed wrong as Motz states over at AVS or these are correct and this is what we're stuck with on the beta units. You never know, but Freescales chipps are in released production now acording to a few post's over at AVS, so who knows. *This of course is only my opinion.*

If you ask me, the Echo is truly in public beta now ...

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Un-DI'd video will be horrible to watch because of the shredding, other than to spell out exactly what that entails (which should be beyond the scope of a review) I struggled to find something else to say about DI performance (besides that it doesn't work and a significant amount of the stuff it's supposed to be good at is interlaced) that wouldn't come off as me beating a dead horse. I think it's important to be fair to everyone in a review.

Yeah, I can certainly understand that. There's a balance to try to find there. I'm inclined to characterize your handling of the 1080i issue as "burying the lead."

Originally Posted by babgvant

I left it out because it's not specific to the Echo. IMO, it belongs in a review of WMC. It's a fair criticism, but I didn't want to review WMC.

I understand this as well, although I'm not sure I fully agree. Let me use a more extreme example from unRAID. The unRAID developer seems to be really struggling to get unRAID v5 out the door due to bugs in the linux kernel. Should someone ignore the Linux bugs in an unRAID review, or point out how it impacts the operation of unRAID?

I'll admit this isn't the same thing. Still, I think issues with WMC are fair game for products that rely on WMC. Certainly it doesn't make sense do a full WMC review within an Echo review, but I think things around media playback ought to be fair game. For one, people might not realize that container support is restricted by WMC, as opposed to be the Echo itself. And two, the situation in WMC with extenders is rather complicated (e.g., the apparent problems in getting MKVs to play nicely both on the WMC box and the extender). These problems aren't unique to the Echo, but they are WMC extender issues (and its not like there are ton of WMC extenders out there).

Anyways, I'd understand if you didn't want to get too keep into non-supported-container territory. The issues with videos in supported containers weren't well described in the review either. As far as I know, there's no WMC limitation that should restrict H.264 playback on the Echo to around 10mbps. And there's no reason wtv containers should work with H.264 video, but not H.264 video with AC3 audio. I'm not sure how many issues like that there are with the Echo in the current firmware, but it would be potentially interesting to find out.

[reggie14]

I'm listening to the Engadget podcast right now, and Ben is explaining why Engadget hasn't posted a review of the Echo yet. I always sort of thought he was a WMC fanboy, and I can't help but think this confirms it. Engadget didn't post their review because they didn't want to post a critical review. Citing the 1080i problem, black levels, jittery frame rates and exaggerated compression artifacts, he said the Echo isn't usable in its current form. How is that not completely legitimate information to put in a review of a product with much hype and little performance? It seems like that's information people thinking about buying the Echo would want to hear. Not everyone follows the AVS thread.

Ben referenced your review, Andy, and he said it was pretty ugly (not that he was disagreeing).

I'd understand if he actually had some reason to think that the issues were going to get resolved quickly, but these are all bugs that have been known to Ceton for a long time. Most of those things they must have known about before the public beta.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Yeah, I can certainly understand that. There's a balance to try to find there. I'm inclined to characterize your handling of the 1080i issue as "burying the lead."

Because of where it is located, the verbiage, or something else?

If it's the location, that's my standard review format (hardware, user experience, performance).

Originally Posted by reggie14

I understand this as well, although I'm not sure I fully agree. Let me use a more extreme example from unRAID. The unRAID developer seems to be really struggling to get unRAID v5 out the door due to bugs in the linux kernel. Should someone ignore the Linux bugs in an unRAID review, or point out how it impacts the operation of unRAID?

I would probably handle it in much the same way that I did w/ the Echo. Point it out, note the impact briefly, move on. If the impact affected core functionality it would be covered in the performance section.

Originally Posted by reggie14

I'll admit this isn't the same thing. Still, I think issues with WMC are fair game for products that rely on WMC. Certainly it doesn't make sense do a full WMC review within an Echo review, but I think things around media playback ought to be fair game. For one, people might not realize that container support is restricted by WMC, as opposed to be the Echo itself. And two, the situation in WMC with extenders is rather complicated (e.g., the apparent problems in getting MKVs to play nicely both on the WMC box and the extender). These problems aren't unique to the Echo, but they are WMC extender issues (and its not like there are ton of WMC extenders out there).

But it's not really an issue per se. Things that aren't TV, music or pictures are a crapshoot on MCX.

As an MCX, support for WMC TV containers (DVR-MS/WTV), photos and music is good, but other file formats (e.g. M2TS, TS, MKV, etc.) is highly dependent on the host home theater PC’s (HTPC) configuration...

Also, I don't see how that is fundamentally different from what I wrote?

Originally Posted by reggie14

Anyways, I'd understand if you didn't want to get too keep into non-supported-container territory. The issues with videos in supported containers weren't well described in the review either. As far as I know, there's no WMC limitation that should restrict H.264 playback on the Echo to around 10mbps. And there's no reason wtv containers should work with H.264 video, but not H.264 video with AC3 audio. I'm not sure how many issues like that there are with the Echo in the current firmware, but it would be potentially interesting to find out.

Actually there is a reason why TV files play (even those w/ h.264), the codepath is completely different. The StreamBufferEngine (SBE) is a DS only component (pull only AFAIK), MF and the streaming (push) weirdness isn't involved.

I didn't have any trouble (VP issues aside) w/ TV files (which was noted), and I don't have a large suite of WMV files (DVRMStoWMVHD was a design exercise that I never really used personally). Everything else is limited by the MF design compromises noted previously. Because of the design it's very difficult to truly isolate the Echo from the PC to determine if the issue is w/ how it handle HBR content, or whether WMC assumes that it can't and transcodes because the 360 can't (in which case the experience is CPU limited on the PC). Also, if because I don't install codec packs on my PC something works (or doesn't), how do I (given the semi-black box nature of WMC's file streaming) isolate the bits that are working and those that aren't. I understand that the section was vague, but I'm not sure how else to handle it practically. While it's true that every review requires some conjecture based on experience, IMO if the results aren't reached w/ confidence they shouldn't be published.

Complicate this with the fact that the state required to make non-TV files work properly isn't a state that I find acceptable on my main PC (i.e. M2TS files don't play right in WMC), so I choose to break playback on the Echo to maintain this. Some nuance in a review is good, too much weighs it down.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Because of where it is located, the verbiage, or something else?

If it's the location, that's my standard review format (hardware, user experience, performance).

Oh, I thought the general organization was good. I guess I would say it was more a tone issue. And I think size matters too. As I said before, you spent a full paragraph railing on the remote control, but a half a sentence referring to some problem with interlaced video. If I wasn't already aware of the issue, I would have no idea what "inability to deal with interlaced video" means. The issue justifies more than half a sentence. You could better described the problem without coming off like you were beating a dead horse, and it also would have helped to call attention to the issue.

Originally Posted by babgvant

But it's not really an issue per se. Things that aren't TV, music or pictures are a crapshoot on MCX.
...
Also, I don't see how that is fundamentally different from what I wrote?
...
Actually there is a reason why TV files play (even those w/ h.264), the codepath is completely different.

I wonder if this is indicative of the vast difference in understanding of WMC between us. You know a ton more about WMC- its capabilities and inner workings- than I do. Things that might seem relatively obvious to you are far from obvious to me.

And while a fair number of these issues are partly or fully issues with WMC, and not the Echo itself, "typical" discussions of WMC aren't going to address those issues (as they generally focus on WMC on a PC). Discussions/reviews of WMC extenders are the only time some of those issues are going to come up.

I'm still completely baffled by WMC. You've been trying to enlighten me in this thread, which I greatly appreciate, but to be honest I think its making me more confused than anything. I guess I assumed if WMC supports wtv, and the Echo supports H.264 video and AC3 audio, then the combination of the three should work. And, I'd assume if the Echo supports H.264 video, then, given current chips, the Echo should be able to play high bitrate files (which it apparently cannot, and this doesn't seem to be a transcoding issue).

I'm not really sure what the best way to deal with this would be. But I can tell you I didn't find the statement that support for "other file formats (e.g. M2TS, TS, MKV, etc.) is highly dependent on the host home theater PC’s (HTPC) configuration" to be particularly helpful. I understand you didn't want to go on and on about those issues, but I think you could have expanded the sections around media playback without ending up with a novel. It was a fairly short review, at least when measured in number of words.

[cncb]

Maybe I don't understand the problem but can't you set the Echo to output 1080i and let your tv do the deinterlacing to avoid the playback issues?

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Oh, I thought the general organization was good. I guess I would say it was more a tone issue. And I think size matters too. As I said before, you spent a full paragraph railing on the remote control, but a half a sentence referring to some problem with interlaced video.

Well I really hated the remote .

And they can't fix that.

Originally Posted by reggie14

If I wasn't already aware of the issue, I would have no idea what "inability to deal with interlaced video" means.

Hmm. I'll have to think about this, I did assume that most MR readers understand the different b/w interlaced and progressive video (and in my defense I did point out that most TV is interlaced ). Pretty sure we have a primer on the site somewhere - maybe a link out to that?

Originally Posted by reggie14

I wonder if this is indicative of the vast difference in understanding of WMC between us. You know a ton more about WMC- its capabilities and inner workings- than I do. Things that might seem relatively obvious to you are far from obvious to me.

This is a valid criticism.

Originally Posted by reggie14

I'm still completely baffled by WMC.

Me too .

Originally Posted by reggie14

It was a fairly short review, at least when measured in number of words.

1563 words (plus a few more since I added an update), puts in solidly in the middle .

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by cncb

Maybe I don't understand the problem but can't you set the Echo to output 1080i and let your tv do the deinterlacing to avoid the playback issues?

That doesn't work. The Echo appears to be outputting in 1080p when you select 1080i, although I haven't checked that.

Originally Posted by babgvant

Hmm. I'll have to think about this, I did assume that most MR readers understand the different b/w interlaced and progressive video (and in my defense I did point out that most TV is interlaced ). Pretty sure we have a primer on the site somewhere - maybe a link out to that?

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest I didn't know what interlaced video was. I was saying I wouldn't have known what you meant by "inability to deal with interlaced video" unless I was following what was going on. Does the Echo crash? Does it not play at all? I definitely wouldn't have guessed it meant it plays it back but it looks terrible. And I would have been rather confused when I saw people claiming 1080i playback is fine on AVS.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I definitely wouldn't have guessed it meant it plays it back but it looks terrible.

But if you look at the supporting screenshots in the gallery above it should be clear that it plays and looks terrible.

Originally Posted by reggie14

And I would have been rather confused when I saw people claiming 1080i playback is fine on AVS.

That baffles me too. Maybe they're the same set who look at a TV in torch mode and think it looks awesome .

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by babgvant

But if you look at the supporting screenshots in the gallery above it should be clear that it plays and looks terrible.

You know, I honestly had no idea what those screen shots meant until you said that... Things didn't quite look right, but screenshots of a video often don't look right.

Originally Posted by babgvant

That baffles me too. Maybe they're the same set who look at a TV in torch mode and think it looks awesome .

Actually, I think some of it is just people that don't want to say anything bad about the Echo publicly.

[reggie14]

Ceton posted a blog entry giving a status update on the Echo. Notably, they say they're working with a "key component partner" to address the 1080i problems. I'm sure Ceton isn't real happy with their "key component partner" right now. If Freescale had their act together the Echo launch would have gone much smoother.

Though, I'm a bit confused why Ceton had so much faith in Freescale. The 1080i problem was obvious from the start. Ceton's internal alpha testing should have revealed it at least a couple months ago.

I'll add this is the first time they've fully acknowledged the 1080i issue. I wonder if Ben calling them out in the Engadget HD podcast helped push them along. He also noted that Ceton never confirmed the problem.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Though, I'm a bit confused why Ceton had so much faith in Freescale. The 1080i problem was obvious from the start. Ceton's internal alpha testing should have revealed it at least a couple months ago.

I think this is the downfall of the Echo. Maybe Freescale gave them a really good deal on the SOC, but even so it's generally believed that ARM SOC's cost less than $25. Even if Freescale sold the SOC's to them for half that cost, we are talking about device that costs almost $200, what is $12? Why didn't they choose something that was more tried and true? Look what the Roku and AppleTV can do at price points below $100. Both companies do not sell their hardware below cost, so that can't be an argument. If you are trying to build a device that will allow you to branch out of your current offerings, why are you taking chances on the very first device of its kind that you release? If you want to take a chance on Echo 2, go for it. You at least have the revenue from the Echo 1 to fall back on. Whether you like Apple as a company or not, they figured out this out long ago: 1st version, make it "good enough" on the hardware and make the interface rock solid and on v2+ is where you get creative with the hardware.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

I think this is the downfall of the Echo. Maybe Freescale gave them a really good deal on the SOC, but even so it's generally believed that ARM SOC's cost less than $25. Even if Freescale sold the SOC's to them for half that cost, we are talking about device that costs almost $200, what is $12?

$12 per unit is actually quite a bit. I've had vendors balk at much, much less and much, much more expensive things (although they deal in larger volumes).

I'm starting to think Ceton was always planning on putting Android on the Echo. After Intel shut down their Digital Home Group, and MS said they weren't putting WMC in Win8, I think Ceton saw the writing on the wall. They were and are too invested in WMC to pull out entirely, but they surely must be trying to figure out what they're going to do when MS kills off WMC entirely.

So, that probably necessitated a more powerful SOC than they might have otherwise used. it seems like a dual core ARM Cortex A9 is a pretty powerful CPU for just an extender. I'm not sure why they didn't just go with a more tried and true SOC, like a Tegra 2/3, except perhaps they figured they didn't need that beefy of a GPU (I'm making an assumption there, but I imagine the GPU on the i.MX6 is significantly less powerful than a Tegra2).

Roku uses a much slower SOC, which is fine given how the Roku works (although its still a little laggy). Apple has the advantage of having their own SOC. Apple's probably also not making much on each AppleTV sale- instead they're making the money in their store. Still, I think Ceton priced the Echo too high, given the current cost and capabilities of the Xbox 360. I'm sure the price will drop, I just don't know how much. The InfiniTV tuners started really high too.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

Look what the Roku and AppleTV can do at price points below $100. Both companies do not sell their hardware below cost, so that can't be an argument.

Economies of scale is an important concept to keep in mind in any discussion around BOM and component selection.

Another important aspect of any comparison is digesting the intended use case and requirements of the items being compared. In this case the pool is fallacious because even though they look similar, the what-it-needs-to-do is too different to make it valid.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by reggie14

So, that probably necessitated a more powerful SOC than they might have otherwise used. it seems like a dual core ARM Cortex A9 is a pretty powerful CPU for just an extender. I'm not sure why they didn't just go with a more tried and true SOC, like a Tegra 2/3, except perhaps they figured they didn't need that beefy of a GPU (I'm making an assumption there, but I imagine the GPU on the i.MX6 is significantly less powerful than a Tegra2).

Technically, Tegra2 is an A9 while Tegra 3 is two A9's on single package. I'm sure the GPU's are different, but in what way they are different is hard to tell. Video processing wise they "should' be similar. I wonder what GPU they used, or if they designed one in-house? I glanced over their PDF, but couldn't find any mention of a specific GPU. It sounds as if the SOC they used is very similar to Tegra 2 and the other basic A9 SOC's from other vendors. The exception seems to be the GPU.

[MattHelm]

On the GPU, from what I read, they are using a Vivante core or 3, depending on which i.MX 6 chip they are using. This should be a reasonably mature GPU.