STB Firewire (IEEE-1394) Support

[JasonJoel]

NONE of my cable boxes have SVideo out. And Charter will NOT give you one. They make you pay an extra $10 *per box* to get their DVR, which does have SVideo out...

Gotta love Charter.

Jason Bottjen

Originally Posted by DFA

Wow. I didn't know they made digital STB's w/o S-Video!

DFA

[DFA]

Cayars:

When you get the Firewire link working, you probably want an easy way to test. CapDVHS is not too good because you can"t view real time. VLC is OK for real time viewing but if having trouble, you may wonder if it is a VLC config issue since it is very flexable.

I found that using Graphedit is quick, easy and fool proof for quick viewing and testing purposes. Assuming you have the recent nVidia codec release, I have attached the Graphedit file I am using that employs the nVidia filters. Just open the file with Graphedit and hit the old "play" button. It hangs once in while on channel change but just toggle around and it usually takes off.

Also attached is screen capture of graph in case file does not work due to being slightly different device (Scientific Atlanta).

DFA

[sleonard]

Quick update: Cox has still not d/l the FW SW to my boxes yet. I guess they don't consider weekends part of the 48 hrs. Info about my SA3250HD: ROM image 1.52.6.1, OS 3.6.5.1, SARA 1.52.6.1

How are you doing with your new box Carlo? Did it already have the FW turned on or are you going to have to wait for an SW update?

[DFA]

Hi sleonard:

I too was wondering how you and Cayers were fairing. I hope this doesn't die on the vine. According to a poll Stanger89 has had running for a while, 40 people showed interest in a Firewire addition to Sage. Third place, but not a dark horse either.

Thomas Micheline dropped a bomb today by releasing an XCard OSD. I was not aware it was in the works! Some people have been testing it for a while as well and managed to keep mum. I am hurt I was not among the chosen few but then again, I probably could not keep quiet! Oh well. Very glad it is here and now being refined.

I remain convinced that once you and Carlo see some material via the Firewire link, you will become converts and your enthusiasm will esaclate. It's one of those things you just have to see. When watching a show via FW, the wife always comments "What did you do? Keep it like that!" I have to explain that it can be for live viewing only and can not record with Sage. If desperate, I could record with CapDVHS for later viewing but is awkward.

Hope you get things going soon. Let me know if I can help.

DFA

[Cayars]

I've kind of put this on hold for a few days as I want to get a new STV version out the door. Not to mention that I need a firware update that they "promised" would happen in 48 hours. So at present I can't access the HD material yet via 1394.

I've done a lot and I mean a lot of reading (about 40 hours worth) on firewire capture so I know what we're up against. Right now, I don't see much chance of having anything that will work for everyone based on what I'm reading.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that only certain channels will be able to be recorded by firewire. Off the top of my head, this in itself is going to cause a problem for many people since there is going to be an EPG conflict in SageTV.

From what I've read, it appears that some shows on your "good" channels may still have 5C on and you won't be able to record them. This to me would be the major stumbling block! How do we know what shows can & can't be recorded?

Hopefully, once I can actually play with it I'll have more of a clue!

Carlo

[Cayars]

BTW, does anyone have a link to the Motorola 6200 manual? I know I can find it but if anyone can save me the search I'd appreciate it.

Also second question. Does anybody know of any 1394 "wire tap" devices? Something that could be added inline that only "listens" but does not interfere with the 1394 signals? Obviously with something like this inline AND a proper 5C complient device inline we could trick the STB into sending the data our way.

[DFA]

Cayars:

You are correct, peoples mileage will vary as to what is available. I figure that even at worst case, a great wealth of programming will still be available that makes it worth while since the PQ is so much improved. Once having a taste of an all-digital path, certainly one will sorely lament what is encrypted. For my case, I am all digital up to and including the display (digital cable --> digital STB --> firewire --> HTPC decode --> DVI --> DLP).

Correct me if I am wrong here since you are more knowledgable on the nuts and bolts. Ultimately, I envisioned that it might be possible to get Sage to show the FW device as another capture device that can be selected. What it takes to accomplish this while at the same time making the MPEG2TS-to-MPEG2PS real time conversion is where I am stupid. It seems that Anders was able to do this by using the Sage "Network Encoder" feature but that is nothing more than words to me.

Assuming that the FW device can be recognized as a capture device by Sage, from there Sage has all the necessary flexability including channel changing. We can assign the EPG data just like the Hauppauge PVR encoder and edit / remap the channel assignments as needed. For example, I have channels 2 - 13 assigned to the coax input on the PVR and 14 and above assigned to the S-Video input on the PVR which comes from the STB. With the inclusion of the additional FW capture device, I would delete / disable all the unencrypted channels from the PVR S-Video channel line-up and have those active on the FW capture device line-up. Even for channels that encrypted on a show-by-show basis, Sage allows for assigning a different channel number so that it can be accessed by either method / device w/o confilict. Favorites allows for setting speciific channel numbers so for channels that encrypt a particular show of interest, the favorites would be directed towards the S-Video source while if not encrypted, favorites would be directed toward the FW channel source.

As I see it, Sage has all the flexability to configue it to get what we can on FW on an individual case-by-case basis. Some will do better than others as far as what's free and clear and things will change as time marches on as well. Sadly, probably for the worse. Again, I maintain that no small amount of programming will always be available free and clear. We will always grumble and rail against what is not.

As far as an FW tap, not a clue. I understand what you are driving at though. However, for material flagged even "record once", remember that it is already encrypted when leaving the STB and is unencrypted by the 5C compliant device that has the matching and ever changing key. So, I am not sure that intercepting the signal being sent to a 5C compliant TV or DVCR would help.

EDIT: I had not looked at the way devices, channels and EPG is configured in Sage for some time now and on review of things, perhaps more creativity is needed than I first thought. Perhaps it may be needed to choose an EPG source from a "different" CableCo head end but essentially has the same lineup and/or a lot of remapping.

DFA

[DFA]

Some more to add:

As a proof of concept, I did the following:

I reside in Bakersfield, CA and have cable service from Brighthouse Networks, Bakersfield. I went to Brighthouse's local website and found three lineups in my immediate area: Besides my own, there is Brighthouse Networks Digital - Avenal and Brighthouse Networks Digital - Tehachipi (independent head ends I assume). The Avenal lineup was completly different. However, the Tehachipi lineup at first glance appeared identical including the non-digital channels. If any descrepencies existed I could remap anyway to achieve complete parity.

I have a Rage Theater capture chip integrated on my Asus 9600XT video card. Sage recognizes this capture device even though not a HW encoder and shows it in the encoder selection list in addition to the PVR-250. PRETENDING that the Rage Theater device is actually my "FW capture device", I went ahead and configured it the same as the PVR-250 S-Video (channel control and all) but for the EPG I used a zip code for Tehachipi and selected "Brighthouse Networks Digital - Tehachipi". Voila. When done configuring I now have another digital channel lineup that can be edited that is a match to the one I am using for the S-Video input. Now I can create an inverse mirror image of enabled and disabled channels for the digital lineups based on encrypted / sometimes encrypted OR no encryption. In other words, I have two capture devices with indedpent but identical EPG data such that I can edit them independently for enabled and disabled channels opposite of each other. The channel changing configuration remains common between the two devices. It is transparent to me which capture device is being used for any particular channel although the same STB is used for each device. I would think most others could do the same. If all else fails, I suppose an independent but identical lineup can be achieved by falling back to the XML plugin like I originally used when I first purchased Sage back at 1.4.

Where things get a little messy is for channels that might be encrypting show by show and it is desired to be able to tune that same channel from the STB with either device (conventional HW encoder or FW capture device depending on encryption status). My immediate thinking is that I would remap the those channel assignments in the FW channel lineup by adding 1000 to it (the SA STB stops at 999). With a little Girder work, I would subtract 1000 from anything that comes through greater than 999. Hence, I would still have tuning control of the STB for the same channel for either device and could set up my favorites channel assignment based on whether that show is encrypted or not, i.e. 1700 vs. 700.

The last part (handling show-by-show encryption) is not something that would be for everyone that's for sure. But the first part for setting up identical but independent EPG's that are inverse mirrors should not be over the top.

I don't know how much show-by-show encryption is going on in the wild. Here, I am not seeing any. In fact, I have everything flagged "free and clear" all the time.

Anyway, am I making any sense with my explanation? I'm not sure that I'm doing a good job of presenting what is able to be done.

At this point if I actually had the FW capture device in the Sage list, I believe I would be able to make it fly.

EDIT: How are you guys handling multiple encoder cards and multiple STB's
but one EPG lineup? I've never considered that before until now.

DFA

[indigo]

This is probably irrelevant, but can you use these nice new boxes with just SDTV as I don't have an HD set this would be very nice. Also will they have a digital out for non-HD but "digital" channels? If so, it might be worth calling Comcast

[DFA]

In general, the answer to your questions is "yes". Even with an SD TV, you will see improved PQ with digital service. You need at least a composite input and preferably S-Video input on your set to take reasonable advantage of the improved signal quality. The lower channels are analog and essentially passed through by the digital STB (my digital channels start at 30 and above). But above a given channel number, the balance are delivered digitally to the STB where the STB decodes them and delivers the signal via various outputs. It is the digitally delivered channels to the STB that have the improved PQ even for SD.

This thread discussion deals with taking as yet a still encoded digital signal from the STB to the HTPC whether SD or HD for direct recording. The signal is then decoded once in the HTPC at the time of playback.

DFA

[AndersNolberger]

Hello

I am sorry I have not commented on this until now but I have been away for the weekend so I have not had the chance until now.

My network encoder for DVB is based on a dll called DVBCore. This dll can control the dvb card and convert the TS stream to a PS all by itself. All I have to do is to save the result to disk.

In the current version the network protocol is not entirely implemented but in the next version that will be corrected. Cayars probably can implement something else since he might have access to Studio and is able to add stuff to the core program.

Either way the problem that exists is the TS to PS conversion. I am looking at making a BDA version for DVB and the problem is to get a good PS stream. One way is to purchase Showshifter and use their ps dump filter. In the graph posted erlier in this thread you can connect that filter after the demux and save a PS stream to file. The next step is probably to test if that works. If someone knows about any other filters that solves this please let me know.

If the TS to PS is solved it is not very complicated to make a network encoder that sets up the graph and saves the files that Sage want.

Now that the holidays is over I will continue to look at BDA and if someone knowledgable in Borland Delphi is interested please contact me to get the source to my project (after I clean it up a bit).

[DFA]

Thanks for the input Anders.

That was one of the questions I had: what, where and how were you making the TS to PS real time conversion.

I thought there were more of these filters around than apparently exist. One of the requirements is that the TS to PS filter be able to handle 720p and 1080i HD bit rates. I will see what I can do to get a hold of the ShowShifter filter so that it can be tested against this application.

Anyone?

DFA

[lovingHDTV]

Not sure if this will help but:

TSPlayer seems like it does quite a lot with TS streams,

http://www.coolstf.com/

[DFA]

Thanks lovingHDTV:

I know that site. No real time filters of the type I'm looking for there.

I did try the ShowShifter filter and it works!!! Real time TS to PS and writes streaming conversion to disk. Downside is the filter requires other SS files in its environment to register and work.

I am going to try a filter from a KWorld SW package that a little bird told me about. This one is supposed to be stand alone filter. The KWorld FTP site download is very slow and will take hours; should have package tommorrow AM.

So, another step closer. I can record HD direct to HDD (Sage Library folder) in MPEG2PS. I recorded some HBO-HD (ch 791) and played back in Sage.

SageHDTV ..... It's coming into view for me!

Next will be to get the network encoder aspect of it done.

DFA

[sleonard]

Checking in. Sounds like your making some progress, DFA. That's good because Cox has STILL not updated my STB's w/ the FW update. Apparently, their update server was waiting for me to make this request and promptly went down. Their techs have been working on it for 3-4 days.

[DFA]

sleonard:

So very typical. I thought that kind of stuff only happened to me! Judging by the AVSForum thread, many have had their share of problems getting the CableCos to get things right with the STB in terms of hardware and software. Once crossing that bridge, quite a few have had difficulty getting the drivers put in properly because of the slight work around procedure. But I assure you, it will and does work.

Now that I have worked out how to handle the EPG, have got real time conversion of MPEG2TS to MPEG2PS and recording to disk and the encouraging comment from Anders, I am starting to be convinced that this is actually doable and without anything from Frey in terms of new programming.

I hope others will begin to share some enthusiasm. I will need help for setting up the network encoder side of this or some other scheme that achieves the end result.

Dane

[samgreco]

Enthusiasm...

I am soooo hopeful. I will be glad to do some testing when the time comes.

[sleonard]

Got home last night and plugged the FW cable into the server...nothing! Called Cox to ask if the server had come back up and if my updates had been sent. Nope. Apparently, my updates went down with the server. The tech started a new request for another update in, you guessed it, another 48 hrs

I'm now waiting for Fri to get my updates.

[Narflex]

If you want into to help on this, you got it.

I'd recommend doing a network encoder for the capture. The protocol's pretty easy to manage.

You can use the MPEG2Dump filter from SageTV to write the TS stream to disk...that code's still in there.

Sage should also playback the TS file (the demux was updated to do this)....that code was put in there awhile ago, but there's problems with it apparently. The fixes might be minimal though to make it work.

Last I heard was that it played back TS files OK if they didn't have any subchannels, but if they did it would playback one of the subchannel streams instead. Is this still the case?

[lakeman]

Originally Posted by Cayars

BTW, does anyone have a link to the Motorola 6200 manual? I know I can find it but if anyone can save me the search I'd appreciate it.

Here is the link to the 6200:

http://broadband.motorola.com/consum..._UserGuide.pdf

I started looking at it, but haven't had much time as of late.