VCD Window Size

[LPC]

Hello,

I've recorded using VCD mode and noticed that it does so with a window size of 320x240. I checked the Sage.properties file in the Sage directory and there's a line of code that contains "VCD" and lists the size as 352x240.

Does anyone know how to get it to record at 352x240 as opposed to 320x240?

Thanks.

[kny3twalker]

the window size has nothing to do with the file's resolution
and I wondered why you thought this

I think the recording is fine and you can make the playback window as large or small as you want

[LPC]

Originally Posted by kny3twalker

the window size has nothing to do with the file's resolution
and I wondered why you thought this

I think the recording is fine and you can make the playback window as large or small as you want

I meant to "resolution" as opposed to "window size." Sorry about that.

The quality of the recordings is fine, but for various reasons I really want to record at 352x240 and not 320x240. I checked the Sage.properties file in the Sage directory and in it there is:

mmc/python2_encoding/VCD=videobitrate\=1150000|vbr\=0|width\=352|height\=240|audiobitrate\=224|outputstreamtype\=11|audiosampling\=44100

I'm not a programmer, but I'm assuming that this is the line responsible for VCD recording. If so, why is the width listed at 352 yet it records at 320?

I added another line just below the one above in Sage.properties file with the same settings but a different name (VCDtest). I then re-opened Sage TV and looked for it in the listing of recording formats but it wasn't there. I then closed the program and re-opened Sage.properites and the line that I had inserted wasn't there. I figured it might record at 352x240 with the additional format but I can't find out until it makes it to the list. Is there any way I can make the additional line stay in Sage.properties? I closed Sage TV and saved the changes to the file so I don't know why it's being deleted once the program reopens.

Is there anything else I can try to get it to record at a width of 352 as opposed to 320?

[LPC]

I went back to the Sage.properties file and deleted the line below and saved the changes but VCD still shows up as a recording option when I reopen the program.

mmc/python2_encoding/VCD=videobitrate\=1150000|vbr\=0|width\=352|height\=240|audiobitrate\=224|outputstreamtype\=11|audio sampling\=44100

Whatever changes I make to the Sage.properties file seem to become undone when Sage TV is reopened. I made some changes to the file when getting the Canadian EPG going but for some reason any changes I made at this point don't last. I tried restarting my computer after making one change but when I reopened Sage.properties it was back to how it was.

Any idea as to what's going on?

[gplasky]

If you're running Sage TV as a service you need to stop the service. If you're just running Sage you can't just put it to sleep, you need to exit the application. Then your changes will stay.

Gerry

[LPC]

Originally Posted by gplasky

If you're running Sage TV as a service you need to stop the service. If you're just running Sage you can't just put it to sleep, you need to exit the application. Then your changes will stay.

Gerry

gplasky,

Last night I actually checked Processes under Task Manager and noticed that it was running as a service but for some strange reason I didn't stop it. However, after reading your posting I did just that and went back to the Sage.properties file and added another recording option:

mmc/python2_encoding/VCD-1=videobitrate\=1150000|vbr\=0|width\=352|height\=240|audiobitrate\=224|outputstreamtype\=11|audiosampling\=44100

This time it showed up when Sage was reopened, but even though the resolution is set at 352x240 it still records at 320x240 as does the default VCD option that is also set at 352x240.

Is anyone else recording with the VCD option at 352x240 getting a 320x240 output or is it just me?

[kny3twalker]

what makes you think it is recording at the wrong resolution?
is there some tool that you are using that is telling you the recording's resolution?

[LPC]

Originally Posted by kny3twalker

what makes you think it is recording at the wrong resolution?
is there some tool that you are using that is telling you the recording's resolution?

kny3twalker,

Yes. When I open a VCD recording from Sage TV in Womble (an mpg editor) and right click on the file and select "clip properties" next to size it says "320x240."

Can you do me a favour and record something in VCD and then open it in a similar program that reveals the resloution size? I would really like to know whether there's something quirky going on at my end or whether the program simply cannot record at 352x240. I suspect that's just the way the program is designed but I hope I'm wrong. If anyone else wants to try it please be my guest.

[mls]

352 x 240 is the encoding resolution. It will be flagged to playback at 320 x 240 because that is the proper 4:3 aspect of the video.

The same is true for the other encoding settings. 720 x 480 is the encoding resolution, but the flag for playback at 4:3 aspect will be 620 x 480 (not 720 x 480 as some others think it should be).

This is the same way DVD's work. Although everything is encoded at 720 x 480 the playback resolution/aspect is determined by a flag in the encoding for whether it should playback in a 16:9 or a 4:3 aspect resolution. Unfortunately, very few people seem to understand how the encoding and decoding for playback operate.

In any case, it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. Are you having some other problem with playback or burning to a CD that this bothers you?

[LPC]

mls,

Thank you for solving the msytery.

I'm working on a media project and I have thousands of short vcd files with a 352x240 resolution. I also have a bunch at 320x240 that I recorded with WinTV2000 (I recently updated the program so now it's recoding at 352x240).

Merging files takes much longer when they have different resolutions and besides the extra time there is also a slight reduction in quality when a file is saved with a different resolution. Using Womble MPEG editor, I recently saved a 30 second VCD 320x240 file at 352x240 and it took 39 seconds. I then saved it at 320x240 and it took all of two seconds. It's the same with the resolutions are reversed (when a 352x240 is saved at 320x240).

Otherwise there is no problem with both playback and DVD burning.

I was hoping to record at 352x240 with Sage TV but it doesn't look at as if that's going to happen. It's not the end of the world, but it would have been really nice.

Another solution is to encode all of my VCD files into something like DivX and then merge them after they have the same window size (I'm assuming the quality would also be improved). I'm not even sure how to do this and whether it's even feasible, but I am willing to learn.

Thanks for your reply.

[mls]

I can see where you are going to have some problems mixing/combining 352x240 files with your 320x240 files. Somewhere along the line the 320x240 files will end up having to be converted to 352x240 for making a VCD. Either the burning software will have to do the conversion (in order to make a proper VCD), or you will have to convert them yourself ahead of time.

The VCD, SVCD, and DVD recording settings in SageTV all use the proper settings to allow easy, fast burning to each disk type without the burning software having to re-encode the video into the proper format.

I guess the confusion comes from the fact that one set of numbers (like 352x240 or 720x480) is how the files are stored internally. However, those numbers do not actually have anything to do with what the source resolution was, or the playback resolution is supposed to be. The files are flagged for which scaling to use on playback.

As I had mentioned, this is how DVD's end up always being 720x480 internally, but yet on playback the flag tells the player to scale the video back to either a 16:9 or a 4:3 resolution. And there's the klinker... one set of numbers is how the video is stored internally, while the other set of numbers is going to be for the playback resolution.

If you were working with AVI files to convert to VCD/SVCD/DVD and wanted the highest quality possible you would record at the highest resolution possible. Then after editing do the conversion down to the standard MPEG format. That conversion can take quite a bit of extra time though, but it is how high quality videos are done.

However, when capturing directly in MPEG format, it's a lot quicker to do the recording in the proper format right away to avoid the extra re-conversion required when burning to disk.

I know it sounds all rather confusing, but I think you did get the general idea since you mentioned having gotten an upgrade for your WinTV2000 software to capture 352x240 now.

Good luck with your project. Hope the extra conversion of your previous files doesn't take to long and everything turns out ok in the end when burnt to disk(s).

[nielm]

I hate to throw a spanner in the conversation, but Sage for me records VCD quality at 352x288 (I am in pal country, hence the 288 lines) ... The problem was to find a program that would tell me this accuratly (VideoRedo) as most others told me wierd numbers such as 512x288 (Wmp) ..

In fact 320 is not a valid width for the vcd standard MPEG1 stream...

[mls]

You didn't throw a wrench into things at all nielm. If anything, you just helped show how easily people can become confused about MPEG encoding and what resulotions are used/required.

As you pointed out, there are a lot of pieces of software that don't give you accurate information, or don't word things correctly about the info they do give.

You are also correct that 320 is not valid for the VCD MPEG1 standard. For VCD there is only one "standard" for NTSC and that is 352x240. I'll assume for PAL your 352x288 is correct also.

The stock settings in SageTV for VCD, SVCD, and DVD are all correct for each of those types. Trying to use any other width, height, or bitrate will usually go outside the "standards" for any of those modes and end up requiring the burning software to re-encode back to one of the true standards in order to make the final disk(s) playable in DVD players.

This brings up another interesting point. For use on a computer, MPEG video files can be made any many different settings and be played back. However, when making disks to be played in other outside (and more standard) devices, the files do need to be converted to one of the appropriate standards for that type of disk.

The VCD spec if very narrow. For SVCD, one can make some slight alterations to the bitrate, but that's about all. The DVD standard does allow quite a lot of other variations, but one still must stay within the DVD specs.

What I've been trying to point out here though is that the numbers we've been talking about (such as 352x240 or 720x480) are simply the way the files are encoded and stored internally within the MPEG. They have absolutely nothing to do with what the source resolution may have been, and only a limited amount of use as for what the playback display resolution and/or aspect ratio is supposed to be.

If we stay with a 4:3 aspect ratio (as SageTV uses), then for VCD the video will be stored as 352x240 with an intended playback resolution of 320x240 (which easilly can be scaled up double to 640x480). For the DVD recordings, they will be internally stored as 720x480 with an intended playback display of 640x480.

There are a large number of small nit picky things that I'm avoiding throwing into the conversasion here, but these are really the only important things to consider (since none of us are making "professional" type/grade video products anyway, if we were we would have started out in AVI format and not MPEG).

[75th Trombone]

I had this problem, too. I had zillions of different problems at first, VCD recording chief among 'em. At first I was getting all 320x240, then I reinstalled Sage and the drivers, and did some jiggery-pokery, and some other things happened, and they started recording at 352x240.

Sorry I can't be more help, but I think this maybe isn't as innocuous as some are making it sound?

[LPC]

I ran a 320x240 VCD file recorded with Sage TV through Ulead DVD Movie Factory 2.0 (it's an older version) and it produced something that appears to be playable on an external DVD player (it outputted VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS files). I was also able to play it on my computer and it actually looked pretty good.

Ulead Movie Factory 2.0 also has a feature that converts files to VCD so I took another 320x240 VCD file that was recorded with Sage TV and ran it though. I then opened it in Womble and checked the properties and it was now 352x240. I played it and it looked pretty good (no visible loss of quality). I then merged it with another 352x240 VCD file and not only did it go very quickly, but the finished product also looked pretty good.

Although Womble is an excellent mpeg editor, it doesn't seem to do very well when changing a file's resolution (i.e., saving a 320x240 to 352x240 or vice versa) or merging files with different resolutions.

I guess the solution for me re: merging files is to run the 320x240 files through a conversion program such as Ulead or TEMPGenc and then use Womble to merge them with those that have a 352x240 resolution. It would be really nice to avoid the time and hassle of converting the 320x240 files, but at least I seem to have found a solution that doesn't compromise the quality.

Interestingly, I also ran a couple of VCD files that I recorded with WinTV2000 (Hauppauge's software) that are 352x240 and Ulead also converted them. The program doesn't convert existing VCD files (I tried running through a few that I recorded with my Leadtek card but they didn't show up in the conversion folder) so I guess the files VCD files recorded with 150MCE cards are not authentic VCD's (is this because they're actually mp2's?).

[mls]

Unless something has gotten mixed up with the drivers and hardware between the older PVR-250 and the newer 150MCE, any files recorded by SageTV with the VCD quality setting should be MPEG-1.

[LPC]

It took a while, but I finally found an application that can record at 352x240 with the Hauppague 150MCE. It's a command line called WinTVCap and it's nothing fancy but it does EXACTLY what I want it to do.

Thank you to those who posted.