Cayars missing, SageMC dead, 2.2.7 with no bug fix.. my oh my..

[Stuntman]

What is going on here? There seems to be an undercurrent happening.. is everybody moving on to something else? Is Sage going the way of Tivo and losing it's competitive edge? Will lack of HD support do it in? Will Microsoft MCE run over everybody else?

Will we have to go to Freevo or some such open source product to further development...


Question, concerns... and oddly, very little time to watch anything I actually do record!

[Crashless]

The good thing about user-supported add-ins is that you can get lots of functionality that might take the software developer longer to make.

The bad thing is that if the users who are developing popular add-ins get side-tracked with other projects, the users relying on those add-ins become discontent.

It's a double-edged sword that Frey is playing with, but to be honest - I'd MUCH rather have user-developed add-ins rather than not.

I wonder what will happen in the next few months as 3.0 is developed. I'm sure Frey is currently talking about the very same thing, and if they aren't - they should be.

I think they should consider a developer's network similar to Meedio's, which has flourished since it went commercial. But that's my 2 cents - it might not work with this type of software.

SageTV has greatly been improved over the last year by user development, and I'm sure it will continue to do so. But I too wish there was a better contingency plan when plugin writers go AWOL.

Is it time to release Studio? I don't know - but I think it should be considered.

[kayoti]

I am not familiar with Meedio's user contributions - but I think Sage MC 16x9 is a good start for Sage. Users can now (as I am currently working on) build their own skins and contribute it to the community. Simple stuff like this ability is what users thrive on and what software needs to live on (imho), hopefully soon we will be able to tweak much more than just the graphics of a skin.

[Crashless]

Actually, you've always been able to replace the graphics in a skin. You just place your graphics over the old ones in the STV directory.

It's not really talked a lot about, but you can do it.

[bhageman]

First, I am, in one sense, completely content with Sage and Cayars as they both stand today. I was also happy with 2.1 and Nielm. And plain-old 2.0 before that.

On the other hand, the difference the quality of the user experience between 2.0 with the standard STV and the current Sage beta with Cayars is amazing. For example, I initially thought ComSkip was an "interesting" development, now I couldn't imagine living without it. I can't even imagine what a HTPC/PVR will be able to do a year from now.

Sadly, I've definitely noticed that this type of aggressive external development seems to have really died off lately. I remember not to long ago when I was trying out three different STVs that were each being updated weekly if not more often. This concerns me because I would expect the developer community for a successful software application to grow, not shrink. I think that the developer community is the pulse of product and it seems that Sage's pulse is pretty weak right now.

I'll keep contentedly using Sage for the forseeable future, but for the first time I could imagine another application (and maybe even an open source one at that) replacing Sage. Lead, follow, or get run over....

[dbfresh23]

Originally Posted by Crashless

Actually, you've always been able to replace the graphics in a skin. You just place your graphics over the old ones in the STV directory.

It's not really talked a lot about, but you can do it.

Sure we can replace graphics, but we are still very limited. It's pretty much impossible to make a skin by just replacing pictures. In the thread i started about changing text color, Opus let me know that it's only possible if the function was built into the stv. Well not being able to change the text color, I may as well just give up.

Yes, I believe it is time to release Studio. Of course what I believe means S**T

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by dbfresh23

Sure we can replace graphics, but we are still very limited. It's pretty much impossible to make a skin by just replacing pictures. In the thread i started about changing text color, Opus let me know that it's only possible if the function was built into the stv. Well not being able to change the text color, I may as well just give up.

Yes, I believe it is time to release Studio. Of course what I believe means S**T

FWIW, Studio is NOT just a skinning program. It's an entire programming interface, and not for the faint of heart. I don't know this first hand, rather 2nd or 3rd. But either way, it makes sense if it's a tough program, for Frey to be hanging onto it tightly.

So basically, if you're hoping for a winamp-esq skinner, Studio ISN'T it.

[BerrantRyke]

I really just want the media extener to be available. *sigh*

[JasonJoel]

Bah, it already IS. It is called a Media MVP and Matt's Media MVP client for Sage.

The ONLY thing I can think of that the Sage one could possibly add is transcoding support.

It WON'T be any faster on screen updates. It WON'T support STVs differently. At best it will be as good as Matt's, but add a couple of SMALL features.

Now what I'm interested in is the 'future/unannounced' extenders. Who knows what devices those will run on or when (if) they will ever be available though.

Jason

Originally Posted by BerrantRyke

I really just want the media extener to be available. *sigh*

[dbfresh23]

Originally Posted by Crashless

FWIW, Studio is NOT just a skinning program. It's an entire programming interface, and not for the faint of heart. I don't know this first hand, rather 2nd or 3rd. But either way, it makes sense if it's a tough program, for Frey to be hanging onto it tightly.

So basically, if you're hoping for a winamp-esq skinner, Studio ISN'T it.

I think most of us that have been hanging around here for a while and have heard of studio realize that it's going to be a programing interface and not just some easy gui, if that were the case we'd probably already have it. My main point is that Windows MCE and BeyondTV both have SDKs available, heck even Roku HD STB has an SDK available, with VideoLan already ported to it. Having 5-6 main "skin" developers isn't the best way to grow a user base, especially since these developers are pretty much just doing this for fun and not as a job.

I just don't see how it could hurt to make some sort of developers toolkit more widely available, be it Studio or something else. There's obviously enough people that would like to try their hand at it, some of us may even create something productive. Sage, at least up to version 2.x seems to be very reliant on 3rd parties to make their product better, I for one would not have purchased it were it not for the cayars stv. I'd probably have just stayed with MythTV otherwise. Basically Sage can thank Cayars for my purchase

[abasu2003]

I havent' been here that long but I was here for the "good ole days" of multiple STV's and even then, that couldnt' compete with Myth Developers. Now you have a situation where the leading STV developers are realizing that this ridiculously engrossing hobby is taking away from their ability to make money. And you have some just doing it less and some trying to make money off of it, but even that has its limitations.

As the biggest proponent of progress, I would ask Frey to at least increase the number of users who have access to Studio, since there has been a noticeable lag in software creation. I can see not releasing it to the faint of heart, or even anybody who doesnt' ahve enough time to make it useful, but as it stands now, I don't htink enough people have it. Maybe even consider that some of the developers that had it before probably don't have their hearts in it the way they used to, for whatever reason. I don't want this to sound like an indictment of the people who currently have Studio, but clearly we can see that there is a need for others to get a hold of it. There are more than a few areas that the competition is gaining a foothold in and I would think Frey would want to take advantage of the free and very willing client base that wants to extend their software.

[PGPfan]

Personally, I think Frey should be looking seriously into splitting Sage firmly into 2 seperate pieces. I understand that Studio is hard to use, and maintaining control over the secrets that lay within wiz.bin should stay that way but for users to really climb on board Frey needs to fully open up the 'frontend' section.

The PVR part (which as we know is already the best out there) doesn't need to be 'open' any more than it is today to those that have Studio. It does need to have "hooks" externally available so that the 'frontend' section can have control and share UI graphics between the 'apps'.

Frey can then publish the API for the frontend (still keeping their IP protected in wiz.bin) and the user base will take the frontend API and "let her rip". Again, no matter what the UI looks like graphically as long as the 'hooks' in the PVR section function correctly the entire presentation will be one unified interface. We need OPEN FLEXIBILITY for music archiving and playback, weather, comic strips, movie times, etc., etc. This is the POWER that Meedio has. Sage can EASILY trump everyone again considering that true "client/server" is only available in Sage. If it weren't for this fact (and the existance of the beloved Hauppauge MVP) then I'd have long since switched over to Meedio as a frontend and Sage as PVR and I bet I'm not alone on this.

Bottom line, Sage can keep Studio and wiz.bin manipulation. Give the masses an alternative tool to create the dream front end! (hint: flash support would really be nice here )

-PGPfan

[JasonJoel]

Honestly, without more media format support (windows media, etc) and a user accessible SDK/Configuration program (Studio) I believe Frey is <1 year away from being essentially out of this market. EDIT: Oh yewah, and HD support.. But I beleive that to be on its away already eithe by supporting certain cards in 3.0 or piggy-backing on MCE's work.

They will NEVER be able to add all of the things the competition is without user support. And while the competition might not be as stable on core PVR functions today, but I think it is a certainty that they will be 'tomorrow'.

Can argue all day long about this, but it is just my opinion. I love the program, but unless things change course quickly I really believe this product (and Frey Technologies) are a sinking ship. This is taking into account both the user impression, and seeing what the competition is doing.

Jason

[cmaffia]

I hope this is not the case.
Can someone tell me what other competitive applications are out there that is as stable as SageTV? I mean..... I don't reboot unless I want to. One of my boxes hasn't been rebooted since July!

Originally Posted by JasonJoel

Honestly, without more media format support (windows media, etc) and a user accessible SDK/Configuration program (Studio) I believe Frey is <1 year away from being essentially out of this market.

They will NEVER be able to add all of the things the competition is without user support. And while the competition might not be as stable on core PVR functions today, but I think it is a certainty that they will be 'tomorrow'.

Can argue all day long about this, but it is just my opinion. I love the program, but unless things change course quickly I really believe this product (and Frey Technologies) are a sinking ship. This is taking into account both the user impression, and seeing what the competition is doing.

Jason

[ajuhawk]

I'm not sure if anyone of "importance" is actually reading these or not, but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in the bucket as well.

SageTV originally grabbed me because of the user support and development out there. The fact that end users had developed a way to incorporate commercial skipping was just awesome. Then custom STVs caught my attention, beginning with Malore's, Nielm's, and finally Cayars. Cayars caught me so much that I started giving back to the community as much as I could (the user's guide I wrote). But like has been mentioned, lately, due to circumstances beyond any of our's control, the development has basically dropped off a cliff.

That said, I'm pretty content with were things stand. I can set up recordings over the web, I have a customizable frontend, I can stream TV over the web, I can skip commercials and cut them out...burn DVDs...check the weather...turn off the kitchen faucet... the only thing I REALLY want is HD support! Ok, I also want the community to keep coming up with really great ideas on how to improve things and if Frey doesn't do something to make it so more people have studio (or the equivilent), I agree with the afore mentioned - Frey will cease to exist.

As for studio not being a nice easy gui interface - who cares? This community is full of coders. Everything from batch files to directory monitoring sw has been developed. Give it to us, we will learn. More hands make light work.

But that's just what I think...

-Adam

[dbfresh23]

Yeah, I just don't get it. Sage has tons of people that want to work to help make their product better for FREE! Turning down free labor - that's always a great business move!

Granted some of the people that want to help will find out that it's harder then they thought, but there will be some people that turn out some useful stuff.

[night]

well this isnt a thread i wanted to see.
ive barely had my tv card a week and got the beyond tv and sage demos. was digging around the forums on both. was basing my decision entirely on which was most active. i found cayars and del beyond last week. been waiting for the demo time to run out before i buy sage, but now yall have me wondering...
i havent been in this long and dont really know much between the main 4. other than mce tv quality sux a$$ and only god knows when meedio tv might show.
would also like the latest cayars, but it seems i couldnt even get the test if i donated right now.

[dbfresh23]

Night,

Even with Sage 3rd party development seemingly stalled, it is still much much better then BeyondTV hands down. BeyondTV is easily the most crash prone PVR program I have tried. Don't get us wrong, most of us in this thread are very happy with sage, we just want more abilities. I like SageTV a lot and would even pay for major version upgrades if they made us, which they havn't. They aren't Microsoft afterall

[samgreco]

night,

I have to say that I have had Sage server running for 6 months and the only reboots (4) I've done were planned.

The client has been just as stable for me.

So I would still recommend it.

Also, I am using Cayars 16 and haven't had the guts to change. Everything has been working so well

[Blue]

Originally Posted by ajuhawk

But like has been mentioned, lately, due to circumstances beyond any of our's control, the development has basically dropped off a cliff.

With the imminent release of 3.0, maybe there's a good reason why development has stopped, which many of us are unaware of. At least, that would be a positive way to look at it...