Opera vs. Firefox (LONG post)

[mbrown3]

I've been checking out Opera for the last couple of weeks, and it seems like pretty good stuff. However, I do prefer Firefox, for a number of reasons. There are some features that each has that the other doesn't, but overall Firefox just gives me a better overall browsing experience.

Things that both browsers do (just about) equally:
1. Mouse gestures. Opera is a little better at this, and Firefox only does it through extensions, but they both do it functionally enough.
2. Tabbed browsing. I'll give Firefox the edge here, particularly with the tabbrowser preferences extension, which gives you more options and control over tabs than Opera does.
3. Password and forms management. Opera does both of these quite a bit better than Firefox, but I'll put these in the "equal" column since they both do what they're supposed to - Opera just gives more options and is a bit easier to use.
4. Favorites management that can be customized. Again, Firefox only through extensions.
5. Panels. Firefox only through extensions.
6. Sessions management. Again, Opera is a bit better at this, and Firefox can do it only through an extension.
7. Security. Opera gets a bit of an edge, though both are WAY safer than IE, and both have their own bugs.
8. Poor rendering of IE optimized pages. This is a negative aspect, but both are poor at it. Firefox renders IE pages a little bit better than Opera.
9. Both start up (from dead start) slower than IE, at least on my machine (which is pretty fast). Page to page (after up and running) are both faster than IE. Opera gets a slight edge since Firefox is the slowest starter of all.

Things that Opera has over Firefox:
1. Integrated mail. This is great if you're on a high speed connection. If not, don't bother.
2. Size of program (ENTIRE, integrated program) is really small compared to all other browsers. (Opera = 3.2MB, Firefox = 4.7MB withOUT extensions OR mail client)
3. Opera was/is the FIRST to offer most innovative web features that others are now copying (mouse gestures, panels, notes, etc.), and thus most are integrated much better than in Firefox or other browsers).
4. Notes - the ability to add notes to pages, so that you can go back and read comments on pages to remember things, point things out, etc.
5. "Appear as" - Opera can appear to the requested URL's server like Opera, Firefox, or Internet Explorer, which helps for pages that don't seem to show up properly.
6. MDI tabs - this doesn't matter near as much when you have a fast computer and/or fast internet connection.
7. Search functions. Opera has a customizable search function that has 15 options for search engines. I only use Google, though, so for me this is a wash.
8. Full-screen mode. This is actually very cool in Opera, which has the only "true" full-screen mode. I'm not sure exactly why it's a better experience in Opera, but it definitely is.

Things that Firefox has over Opera (note: Firefox can do most things that Opera can do, through extensions, plus some more things):
1. Adblock - this extension is one of the greates things on Firefox. Not only can you block individual ads, you can block entire frames. This can "sort of" be done in Opera through URL filters, a complicated process, and it doesn't work as well, nor does it collapse the empty frames, so you're left with a bunch of holes in ad-blocked pages.
2. gmail notifier extension - Opera doesn't have any built-in way to get notifications of gmail messages (unless you use the integrated mail program for gmail through pop).
3. Foxytunes - allows operation of media players from directly in the browser. Opera has nothing like this.
4. Firefox is FREE (Opera has a fully-functioning version for free, but you have ads running at the top as you use it. The non-ad version is $40US).
5. Firefox has a lot more (and better, IMO) skins at this point (my current favorite is someorbityellow 0.2.2).
6. Firefox is open source, and I'm always up for supporting open source efforts.

YES, there are more "pros" for Opera than Firefox. YES, I also realize that Firefox is a much larger program overall and certainly takes up more space, especially with extensions needed to do the same things that Opera does built-in (and even more mind-boggling is the fact that Opera includes the MAIL client and is STILL smaller!). YES I still prefer Firefox.

Why? For two reasons. One, I have plenty of space and would rather have a program that gives me the better experience, even if it's larger and more "bloated" (which is, surprisingly, a common complaint about Opera, even though it's the much smaller program!). Two, those three extensions in Firefox are things I use ALL the time and would not give up for anything. I listen to tunes ALL the time when I browse, and it's so nice to have the capability built right into the browser. I adblock stuff ALL the time, giving me a much cleaner and more efficent browsing experience. I use gmail as my exclusive non-work email, so the notifier in Firefox is essential. This wouldn't be an issue if I used Opera's mail program, but since I'm on dial-up at home (I know, I know), it's a no-brainer.

The full-screen in Opera, as well as the mail program, and the usually seamless integration of everythign together, would be STRONG reasons for me to consider Opera. I could even live without the gmail notifier, since you can get system tray ones that do the same thing. But without the built in media support and the adblock capability, I just can't do it. Firefox just gives me the better overall browsing experience, and the fact that it's free just sweetens the deal. IF those things were possible in Opera, would I switch? Definitely. I'd even pay for the non-ad version. It's a great app that integrates so many things well, and has some features that nobody else has. But for me, there are a few things in Firefox that I can't get anywhere else, and I'm willing to sacrifice a few other things to get them.

Just my opinion based on my experience, but anyone else used both, and/or have any thoughts to share?

[korben_dallas]

My buddy got me on FireFox. He moved into a programming and development position, and their office is heavy on Mac. He swears by Safari now. I've never tried out Opera or Safari. I was just happy to be off of IE and bloated Navigator.

[Outvit]

In my opinion Opera has always been bloatware.

As for your comparison of mail and other integrated features its an entirely unfair comparison. Firefox was never built to be everything and the kitchen sink. It was built to be an open source, cross platform, lean, mean browsing machine alternative to the clunky old and antiquated Internet Explorer that Microsoft simply refused to update and fix and/or completely disable all of these ActiveX security holes.

It was to be fast, light on the disk usage and highly configurable and extendable. Firefox accomplishes all of these goals flawlessly and is getting better. It accomplishes its intended purpose so much so that Microsoft only now is starting to develop an IE7 with things like tabbed browsing which they always refused to add. Again, Opera was built to be the entire package. Firefox was not. That’s where Thunderbird and Sunbird come in. I hope the Mozilla Foundation eventually does replace their old Mozilla Suite with Firefox, Sunbird and Thunderbird bundled together. That would be a great thing and only then can you truly compare Opera and its bloated feature set.

[mbrown3]

Originally Posted by Outvit

In my opinion Opera has always been bloatware.

As for your comparison of mail and other integrated features its an entirely unfair comparison. Firefox was never built to be everything and the kitchen sink. It was built to be an open source, cross platform, lean, mean browsing machine alternative to the clunky old and antiquated Internet Explorer that Microsoft simply refused to update and fix and/or completely disable all of these ActiveX security holes.

It was to be fast, light on the disk usage and highly configurable and extendable. Firefox accomplishes all of these goals flawlessly and is getting better. It accomplishes its intended purpose so much so that Microsoft only now is starting to develop an IE7 with things like tabbed browsing which they always refused to add. Again, Opera was built to be the entire package. Firefox was not. That’s where Thunderbird and Sunbird come in. I hope the Mozilla Foundation eventually does replace their old Mozilla Suite with Firefox, Sunbird and Thunderbird bundled together. That would be a great thing and only then can you truly compare Opera and its bloated feature set.

That's exactly the point of a lot of my post...Firefox is FAR more bloated than Opera...its installation package is much larger, and it uses much more space on your hard disk...and that's WITHOUT extensions or mail. Intended or not, without mail or extensions, Firefox is still MUCH more "bloated" than Opera. Opera's all-inclusive suite is far more "lean and mean" than Firefox, right out of the box. My comparison is the BASE Firefox to the "bloated" Opera, and Opera is still smaller, faster, and quicker on startup. Even still, I prefer Firefox for the reasons above.

[Gog]

I prefer Opera for tab browsing for one simple reason: you can minimize a tab. With Firefox it always seem that I'm on the wrong tab when I ctrl-f4 out of one. In opera there is a "stack" of tabs that fir better with the way I think.

And Opera gives better control over file types. I can tell him to open .torrent with azureus without input from me. I just open the link in a new tab and everything happens in the background. saves a few clicks.

That said, I use Firefox because I think it's a bit more compatible and it crashes less often than opera

Gog

[heffe2001]

I do the same torrent thing on my linux box at work with Firefox, for that matter, you can make it even easier, just download the .torrent file, and if you're using Azureus, tell it to scan your download directory for new .torrent files, and you're good to go.

[Gog]

Originally Posted by heffe2001

I do the same torrent thing on my linux box at work with Firefox, for that matter, you can make it even easier, just download the .torrent file, and if you're using Azureus, tell it to scan your download directory for new .torrent files, and you're good to go.

Of course I started playing with that AFTER I posted and I was able to do it too... Thanks anyway

Gog

[Outvit]

The reason Opera is so much smaller is it contains no Java or Javascript support in the small package. Opera may also be using a better compression for its installation package. I'm not sure what the Firefox installer uses, whether its zlib or bzip2 or some other compression with little overhead. But oh well. I'm not going to argue this over and over. Firefox is a great browser and I personally do not believe Opera is worth the money. It just isn't.

Quick Addendum: Opera is only available in crappy, older versions unless your on Windows. That's one of the primary advantages of Firefox. It does not care what platform it is on. It's built to operate on everything whether it’s Windows, Linux/Unix, MacOS or even Solaris and QNX. I’ve also seen it running on enthusiast operating systems such as SkyOS flawlessly.

[mbrown3]

Originally Posted by Outvit

The reason Opera is so much smaller is it contains no Java or Javascript support in the small package. Opera may also be using a better compression for its installation package. I'm not sure what the Firefox installer uses, whether its zlib or bzip2 or some other compression with little overhead.

What difference does it make? Opera is smaller in installation package, and smaller on your hard disk (which contradicts your earlier post about Firefox being designed to be "light on the disk space" versus Opera), and the fact that it doesn't contain Javascript makes it MUCH more safe/secure than other browsers.

Originally Posted by Outvit

Quick Addendum: Opera is only available in crappy, older versions unless your on Windows. That's one of the primary advantages of Firefox. It does not care what platform it is on. It's built to operate on everything whether it’s Windows, Linux/Unix, MacOS or even Solaris and QNX. I’ve also seen it running on enthusiast operating systems such as SkyOS flawlessly.

What a shame for 2% of the population. You're right, though, that is one of the boons of Firefox, and I missed it in my earlier post.

[Outvit]

Originally Posted by mbrown3

What difference does it make? Opera is smaller in installation package, and smaller on your hard disk (which contradicts your earlier post about Firefox being designed to be "light on the disk space" versus Opera), and the fact that it doesn't contain Javascript makes it MUCH more safe/secure than other browsers.

Actually, Opera is larger in Non-Java form by 3MB in fully installed form.
And to put it bluntly... If you're using the new JRE 1.5. You've got no issues.

Originally Posted by mbrown3

What a shame for 2% of the population. You're right, though, that is one of the boons of Firefox, and I missed it in my earlier post.

Hmm, well you don't have to care but every Linux guy in the world certainly cares because they now have a standards compliant browser that’s up to date with the rest of the world’s browsers. Plus, Safari is an absolute joke. Most of the people I know use Firefox or Camino in its place.

[mbrown3]

Originally Posted by Outvit

Actually, Opera is larger in Non-Java form by 3MB in fully installed form.
And to put it bluntly... If you're using the new JRE 1.5. You've got no issues.

What are you comparing? Opera (both 7.54u2 AND the new beta, which is even smaller still) is smaller on my hard disk than Firefox with both in bare form. WITH Java, Opera is only a bit larger, and with extensions installed for Firefox it's no contest.

[Outvit]

Originally Posted by mbrown3

What are you comparing? Opera (both 7.54u2 AND the new beta, which is even smaller still) is smaller on my hard disk than Firefox with both in bare form. WITH Java, Opera is only a bit larger, and with extensions installed for Firefox it's no contest.

The only way that's possible is if they're compressing their DLLs and EXEs. I just installed 7.54u2 to see what you're saying and like I said. Opera is larger by 3MB. Now 3MB is not a huge deal and I really never wished to get into an argument about this sort of issue as its infantile and generally I don't wish to engage in it. So, let's leave it at that.

[mbrown3]

Originally Posted by Outvit

The only way that's possible is if they're compressing their DLLs and EXEs. I just installed 7.54u2 to see what you're saying and like I said. Opera is larger by 3MB. Now 3MB is not a huge deal and I really never wished to get into an argument about this sort of issue as its infantile and generally I don't wish to engage in it. So, let's leave it at that.

Not sure why it has to be an argument. Can't it just be a discussion? I really am interested in how you're getting those figures...not because I want to argue about it, but just because I'm getting totally different figures. On my drive, Firefox is 13.8MB without extensions/plugins/themes, 15.3 with them. Opera 7.54u2 is 5.68MB (which, of course, includes the mail client) and the 8 beta is 4.9MB.

Are you talking about installation packages? In that case, I get 3.5MB install package for Opera 7.54u2, 3.57MB install package for Opera beta 8, and 4.7MB for Firefox.

In any case, it seems Opera is always smaller. Is there something I'm missing? Again, really not trying to argue, I really do want to know where these figures are coming from, since I'm getting totally different results.

[mostlyfodder]

here's an interesting little browser i used to use when i was in the market for a new one:

http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/

right now, i'm using avant browser, which redirects a 'page not found' error to their own search page. i'm pretty strongly anti-adware, but i think that technically qualifies. although it's certainly not an 'evil' product, imo.. but i almost never see the page/.. anyhow, it's a great tabbed browser that i like better than firefox. (i was a long time mozilla and phoenix fan until avant came along.) btw, avant doesn't offer a shareware version. but they will accept donations..


http://www.avantbrowser.com/

-fodder

[zoundz]

Originally Posted by mostlyfodder

here's an interesting little browser i used to use when i was in the market for a new one:
http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/

right now, i'm using avant browser, which redirects a 'page not found' error to their own search page. i'm pretty strongly anti-adware, but i think that technically qualifies. although it's certainly not an 'evil' product, imo.. but i almost never see the page/.. anyhow, it's a great tabbed browser that i like better than firefox. (i was a long time mozilla and phoenix fan until avant came along.) btw, avant doesn't offer a shareware version. but they will accept donations..

http://www.avantbrowser.com/
-fodder

Just remember that Avantbrowser is just a front end for MSIE, so you still have all the security crocks that go along with IE. FWIW, after a bit of pissing around with Firefox, I was able to get the tabbed browsing pretty much as civilized as Avant.

[mostlyfodder]

you're right about that. at the same time, compatibility is one of the reasons i like it. i still use mozilla firefox, but much less often. i really like firefox's automatic text-searching.