Xbox 360

[SHS]

Well if MS didn't gives a crap about the RIAA or MPAA then why in HELL are they using dvr-ms file format and not a reg MPEG2 format which they have make it a lot hard to do any with.

[mayamaniac]

I'm sure they have their reasons and it might or might not have anything to do with the MPAA. Give me some links or info on this MS and MPAA alliance if you have more info. But for one reason MS to use their own DVR format instead of regular mpeg2, it allows meta data to be included in the file, instead of separate file for each recording or wiz.bin to store movie info along with the mpeg2 stream.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Besides, have you learn nothing from all these years concerning piracy? Anything the RIAA or MPAA do to protect their assets (more money) can be reversed or hacked.

Wait for Longhorn and the Trusted Computing Platform Architecture, where DRM is integrated into both the software *and* hardware!

You will no longer be able to play back DRM'ed files unless you use a signed and approved player, through signed decoders, to devices with signed drivers, and devices/drivers that bypass DRM will not get signed... Nice.

Still leaves the analogue path for audio (recording from the soundcard's line out) but for video (especially HDTV) you will be out of luck.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

[phenixdragon]

Originally Posted by SHS

Mayamaniac I hate say it but I fell sorry the foolish people buy in to this MCE carp after all the MPAA and RIAA is backing MCE 100%.
Rigth now some Premium channel like HBO, Showtime and Cinemax all ready have (CGMS-A) Content Generation Management System for Analog and if MPAA has it way you be SOL not just Premium channel but all channels as long you used Windows Media Center with it DRM carp.

Microsoft will do what it takes to have it work with MCE. I wouldn't worry about and along with MSFT pushing MCE and having ALL channels able to work with the encryption other companies will be able to also. It is just only a issue for users like ourselves who want to be able to have the media files decryoted so we can do what we want with them and their will be cracks, just takes time. But I don;t by into HBO and others stopping DVRs from recording. It is liek the whole VCR thing all over again and the VCR won jut like DVRs will win. So be thankful MSFT is on our side. Just makes us work more to crack.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by nielm

Wait for Longhorn and the Trusted Computing Platform Architecture, where DRM is integrated into both the software *and* hardware!

Yeah, sorta like the winXP activation process where its tied to the hardware and software. We all know how successful that was.

Anyway, this thread is going off topic from the Xbox 360. Let see what the SageTV MC Extender have to offer in comparison.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Yeah, sorta like the winXP activation process where its tied to the hardware and software. We all know how successful that was.

Anyway, this thread is going off topic from the Xbox 360. Let see what the SageTV MC Extender have to offer in comparison.

Sadly (for the first one at least - MVP based) nothing.

[SHS]

That one reason why I hate WinXP is it windows product activation carp or Phone Home BS and if and when I can no longer used Win2000 that be the day I switch over to Linux or as a 2nd option and I hate say it but buy a Apple (MAC) system as long I don't put with BS like that or MS need come up with some better I don't mind the fact of type in my Product key but I damm if I going put with Phone Home BS.

[mlbdude]

Will the DRM in the HD MCE be any different form my perspective than what I am getting with my cable companies HD DVR? With that I don't get any limitations on what I watch and record. Are the limitations only in what I can make copies of? If MCE is more limited than the cable companies own box I don't think it would be successfull. This leads me to believe it will behave the same.

[phenixdragon]

Originally Posted by SHS

That one reason why I hate WinXP is it windows product activation carp or Phone Home BS and if and when I can no longer used Win2000 that be the day I switch over to Linux or as a 2nd option and I hate say it but buy a Apple (MAC) system as long I don't put with BS like that or MS need come up with some better I don't mind the fact of type in my Product key but I damm if I going put with Phone Home BS.

Hehehe, I don't mind it since I have many friends who work at MSFT and I just have them buy me what I need/want from the MSFT store. And I am not having to call them maybe mroe then twice a year when I upgrade. No biggy to me but a smart move by them. Makes more people buy their own copies. Just wait until products are web based like I think the new Office is suppose to be or was going to be.

[stanger89]

My feeling for where DRM is going:

We'll be able to record anything into a protected format (eg MS-DRM), except Pay-Per-View, and probably VOD.
We'll be able to view it on other devices on the same local network (ie Xbox 360).
We'll be able to burn to CPRM media (BD/HD-DVD should have this, DVD may get it also).
We won't be able to share it on the internet (duh).

Now if the BF restrictions are anything to go on:
We'll be able to send it over the internet to a friend, provided it's protected there too (the BF ruling specifically allowed this).

[Crazedz]

Arrrgh i hate all this DRM talk this is/was supposed to be about the 360 and on that note.

Did anybody watch the E3 special on G4 last night? They had sony's first looks at the PS3 and (despite being a Xbox user and supporter though not a fanatic about it) i liked some of the things i saw but i'm kinda wondering what everybody thinks the pricing next spring will be for it when it's released?

Given all the stuff that's going into it and the cost of some of that stuff im finding it hard to imagine it's going to have a price low enough to make the average consumer pay that much for the console? I mean right off the bat 2 Nvidia RSX chips at $500 (retail) each according to Nvidia. Then the wifi, Blue tooth, gigabit eathernet, blueray and the cell proccessor (which had to cost quite a bundle in R&D) the rest of the chips and boards etc... I can see how Sony might be able to swallow the cost of the cell but can anybody see Nvidia wanting less than $350 each for the RSX chips? Even given that the PS3 looks at least to me like it will run around $850 to $900 at the lowest even if sony eats the cost of the cell and blueray it doesn't look like it will be much if any lower, but then im not a great judge of what sony or anybody else is going to charge.

Also given that MS wasn't able to keep Nvidia from jacking up it's prices for it's chips for the xbox how many think that sony will be able to get them to not do the same to them? I could see Nvidia easily raising the price for their chips if their pc sales of the chips don't go their way.

Anyway it did make the 360 look weak by comparison even though the 360 is much better than most pc's i don't see MS being able to compete this go around on power though given the lower specs i'm thinking MS will be easily able to undercut sony in price by $300 or more. Man the PS3 does look great and i'd love to get one but with everything thats in it i don't see it selling within my price range.

I kinda wanted to hear what the rest of you guys thought about it i mean now that even Nintendo has announced their new Revolution console at E3 as well and MS did their E3 360 announcement since the 360 was being disccused here i'd thought i would pose the question.

BTW my nephew wasn't impressed (then again he hates sony i guess you would say with a passion) he thought the real time fly through of the unreal 3 engine was unimpressive noting the fire looked like a cardboard cut out (which it clearly didn't at least i didn't think so) He started inventing things wrong with the demos that to me just weren't based in reality. He's been living in Egypt these days right next to the Denial river. Ok so he was right that the console looks tacky more like a fax machine and the funky Bat a rang or new cylon rader looking contoller doesn't look to appealing but i think he was delude himself on the rest of the showing.

I know this post may get some enflamed but that isn't my intent im just trying to find out what the rest of you think about it. If it does come out at a cheap enough or affordable price i seriously would want to get one though i was quite impressed by the demos.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Crazedz

Arrrgh i hate all this DRM talk this is/was supposed to be about the 360 and on that note.

Did anybody watch the E3 special on G4 last night? They had sony's first looks at the PS3 and (despite being a Xbox user and supporter though not a fanatic about it) i liked some of the things i saw but i'm kinda wondering what everybody thinks the pricing next spring will be for it when it's released?

Not yet but I'm thinking I should check out the PS3 press conference.

Given all the stuff that's going into it and the cost of some of that stuff im finding it hard to imagine it's going to have a price low enough to make the average consumer pay that much for the console? I mean right off the bat 2 Nvidia RSX chips at $500 (retail) each according to Nvidia. Then the wifi, Blue tooth, gigabit eathernet, blueray and the cell proccessor (which had to cost quite a bundle in R&D) the rest of the chips and boards etc... I can see how Sony might be able to swallow the cost of the cell but can anybody see Nvidia wanting less than $350 each for the RSX chips? Even given that the PS3 looks at least to me like it will run around $850 to $900 at the lowest even if sony eats the cost of the cell and blueray it doesn't look like it will be much if any lower, but then im not a great judge of what sony or anybody else is going to charge.

First I would be surprised if either was over $400, gamers won't buy it otherwise. I'd gues the 360 will be $299 (maybe $349), and I've see (although I don't recall if it was rumor or not) that the PS3 would be $299 at launch with a later BD-R/RW version at the ~$450 mark. Remember these are subsidized by by software sales, and Retail prices are far higher than manufacturing prices.

Also given that MS wasn't able to keep Nvidia from jacking up it's prices for it's chips for the xbox how many think that sony will be able to get them to not do the same to them? I could see Nvidia easily raising the price for their chips if their pc sales of the chips don't go their way.

We'll have to wait and see, I've seen it said that MS says 360 was designed to be profitable from the get-go.

Anyway it did make the 360 look weak by comparison even though the 360 is much better than most pc's i don't see MS being able to compete this go around on power though given the lower specs i'm thinking MS will be easily able to undercut sony in price by $300 or more. Man the PS3 does look great and i'd love to get one but with everything thats in it i don't see it selling within my price range.

It's really hard to tell, Sony made some really grandiose claims for the PS2, and they went very much unfulfilled. Further, nVidia does not have a great track record lately of living up to promises, hype, the Geforce 5800 was supposed to blow away the Radeon 9800 but didn't come close. (This is from a definite nVidia fan).

I kinda wanted to hear what the rest of you guys thought about it i mean now that even Nintendo has announced their new Revolution console at E3 as well and MS did their E3 360 announcement since the 360 was being disccused here i'd thought i would pose the question.

BTW my nephew wasn't impressed (then again he hates sony i guess you would say with a passion) he thought the real time fly through of the unreal 3 engine was unimpressive noting the fire looked like a cardboard cut out (which it clearly didn't at least i didn't think so) He started inventing things wrong with the demos that to me just weren't based in reality. He's been living in Egypt these days right next to the Denial river. Ok so he was right that the console looks tacky more like a fax machine and the funky Bat a rang or new cylon rader looking contoller doesn't look to appealing but i think he was delude himself on the rest of the showing.

I know this post may get some enflamed but that isn't my intent im just trying to find out what the rest of you think about it. If it does come out at a cheap enough or affordable price i seriously would want to get one though i was quite impressed by the demos.

Like I said, I haven't checked out the PS3 press conference, but there's one pretty undeniable advantage the 360 has over the PS3, and that's Live, MS is hitting the online/connected idea hard, the 360 out of the box comes with Live Silver for free, and they're talking free online games (like Atari-type games), buying music (Napster et-all), movies, trailers, full MCE extender support, all that plus the awesome, integrated across all games, Live system. I'm rather surprised Sony didn't have anything to compare to. Watching the 360 press conference, it's clear that MS has planed the whole 360+Live thing out.

That plus, it sounds like the 360 will be 6-12 Months ahead of the PS3. Now what I've heard was that the PS3 demos were quite impressive, but I have to wonder if any of it will materialize. The Cell is a rather specialized processor, suited to vector processing, how will it deal with AI/physics?

And one last thing, one thing MS is pretty incredible at, is providing great development environments, XNA sounds like it's about as close to a programmer's dream as anything yet, contrast that with the PS, I've heard the PS2 was a nightmare to progam for, how will the PS3 be?

Of course, I'm somewhat biased, I've been looking forward to the Halo3, DOA4, PGR3 since I got their Xbox versions.

It will be interesting, that's for sure.

[fieldeffect]

It'll be interesting watching Sony try to come close to the 360 for price, since Microsoft are quite open about the fact that they're willing to make very little (or in the case of XBox actually lose) money on hardware in order to get the market share and make a killing on software.

I think Sony are crapping themselves in the knowledge that their current biggest asset, their huge software catalogue, is going to mean nothing if the 360 gets to market months before they do and has a lot of launch titles.

As for claims about performance, i'm going to wait and see for two reasons:

1. At the moment Sony will quite happily say that the PS3 will fly / cook your dinner / improve your sex life if they think it will steal some of the spotlight that the XBox 360 currently has, and as someone else mentioned above they have a track record for hinting at more than they actually deliver

2. Even if the PS3 is "twice as powerful as the XBox 360" which seems to be Sony's marketing line this week, the difference this is likely to have in operation (especially considering the phenomenal power that all three consoles are going to have) will make little difference. Case in point, there are quite wide performance difference differences between XBox/PS2/Gamecube, but if you see a game that is available on all three consoles, could you really say in a blind test with confidence which one you were looking at? The only difference you would be likely to see would be between the PS2 and the other two and this is really only because there are a lot of "free" graphics effects that can be used on the XBox/GC without stressing the CPU much. With the 360/PS3 games are likely to be indistinguishable.

What I think is interesting is that with the 360 Microsoft seem to be switching their hardware strategy from having a tiny CPU with a meaty graphics engine to having more modest dedicated graphics hardware but stonking great CPUs.

I wonder if this is so that the graphics engine is more flexible for upgrade over the lifecycle of the console (i.e. with new software rather than reaching the limit of the hardware graphics engine).

Either way it is good for adapting to being a PVR box (just so i've mentioned PVRs somewhere in this post ) that the power is in the CPUs.

Nick

[fieldeffect]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Of course, I'm somewhat biased, I've been looking forward to the Halo3, DOA4, PGR3 since I got their Xbox versions.

I'd buy the 360 just on the basis of Halo 3. Would also donate a kidney for Halo 2.5 to be ready in time for the 360 launch. I wonder if they'll sell a cheaper version of the xBox 360 that doesn't have a DVD drive and just has Halo on the hard drive

*makes a mental note to make the hostname of his next Sage box Cortana*

Come to think of it I did actually buy my Playstation purely on the strength of Gran Turismo and my PS2 purely on the strength of Gran Turismo 3

Just adds to the argument that hardware means little and it's all about well designed games.

Nick.

[PGPfan]

I for one find the hardware of the Xbox 360 impressive, but the fact that it needs a host powered by MCE eliminates it from my shopping list. There are just way too many architectural limitations in MCE to make it long term viable for giving people TV the way "they" want it. More like TV the way Microsoft (and partners) allow it.

What we should be concentrating on (especially Jeff, Dan and company) is to find a way to 'lie' to the Xbox 360 so that it believes that it is hooked to an MCE box when in reality it is talking to Sage. Then, we'd have a usable product in the Xbox 360.

-PGPfan

[mayamaniac]

by the specs on these machines, expect xbox360 and PS3 to be at least $300 each, and that's selling at a loss for them, as it was for the first xbox and PS2. And as usual they make up the loss in game sales. Nintendo revolution might be the only system under $300 whenever it debuts, and much like with the gamecube, its the weakest one between the three brands. If you have to choose one system to buy, get the xbox360. This time around, it has backing from all the major game developers unlike the first xbox. Unless the PS3 is clearly a better product, I doubt it will out selling the xbox360 as Microsoft has nearly unlimited budget they can throw at sony until they dominate the console market.

PS, I'll be attending E3 today (Thurs).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by fieldeffect

2. Even if the PS3 is "twice as powerful as the XBox 360" which seems to be Sony's marketing line this week, the difference this is likely to have in operation (especially considering the phenomenal power that all three consoles are going to have) will make little difference. Case in point, there are quite wide performance difference differences between XBox/PS2/Gamecube, but if you see a game that is available on all three consoles, could you really say in a blind test with confidence which one you were looking at? The only difference you would be likely to see would be between the PS2 and the other two and this is really only because there are a lot of "free" graphics effects that can be used on the XBox/GC without stressing the CPU much. With the 360/PS3 games are likely to be indistinguishable.

FWIW, that's largely due to lazy (not that I blame them) developers. If you look at the Xbox exclusives, many of them are much better than anything on any other console (Ninja Gaiden, DOA*, PGR*).

What I think is interesting is that with the 360 Microsoft seem to be switching their hardware strategy from having a tiny CPU with a meaty graphics engine to having more modest dedicated graphics hardware but stonking great CPUs.

The interview at ET was rather interesting, he (can't remember the name but the Xbox hardware lead) stated numerous times that they carefully designed the 360 to be balanced, so that no one part would ever be a bottleneck, and no part would ever be starved.

[zoundz]

Originally Posted by fieldeffect

2. Even if the PS3 is "twice as powerful as the XBox 360" which seems to be Sony's marketing line this week, the difference this is likely to have in operation (especially considering the phenomenal power that all three consoles are going to have) will make little difference. Case in point, there are quite wide performance difference differences between XBox/PS2/Gamecube, but if you see a game that is available on all three consoles, could you really say in a blind test with confidence which one you were looking at? The only difference you would be likely to see would be between the PS2 and the other two and this is really only because there are a lot of "free" graphics effects that can be used on the XBox/GC without stressing the CPU much. With the 360/PS3 games are likely to be indistinguishable.

I can't speak about the PS3 at this point, but at least a couple of the games that are being demo'd on the XBox 360 at E3 are having frame rate problems. No matter how much power they put in these boxes, the game designers are going to end up using all of it and then some for the games. There's just no such thing as too much compute power in this environment. FWIW, the stuff looked absolutely incredible, but there were frame crocks.

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

What we should be concentrating on (especially Jeff, Dan and company) is to find a way to 'lie' to the Xbox 360 so that it believes that it is hooked to an MCE box when in reality it is talking to Sage. Then, we'd have a usable product in the Xbox 360.

This is why I want someone to buy me that linksys media extender.

I suppose I'll be getting the xbox 360 anyways so I'll be able to tinker then. Yes, I'm committed already. I have an xbox now, and don't plan on getting the ps3 simply because microsoft has Live! and sony doesn't. It's the best online gaming experience currently available, and sony hasn't given me any reason to think their service will even come close.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by zoundz

I can't speak about the PS3 at this point, but at least a couple of the games that are being demo'd on the XBox 360 at E3 are having frame rate problems.

And they were being run on Alpha Dev kits (Dual G5 + Radeon X850 boxen) with ~30-40% of what the final 360 is capable of