Big SageTV Project... need input please :-)

[meink]

Big Project.. need advice


I've been using this software for a while and love it. I'm planning a big project and wanted to get some opinions from the community before I move forward with actually purchasing the hardware etc. I have 4 rooms with TVs.. my family all want to watch digital cable tv, want to access my (currently 200GB) collection of DIVX Videos and watch DVDs out of my collection. My idea is to:

Build 4 HTPC Boxes that will access a central SageTV Server to accomplish this.

I would like to be able to watch up to 4 diff programs at one time... or play divx videos or watch any of the 200+ dvds I have in my collection from any of these 4 network machines. I know this is possible.. i'm just not sure what type of Hardware i'll need for the server. This is what I have picked out for the server..

Dual Intel EMT XEON 3.4Ghz Processors
Tyan Motherboard
4GB DDR Memory
8 x 300GB Serial ATA Drives
Dual Hauppauge PVR-500 Cards

My network is 1000mbps....

If anyone could give me any input on this that would be great. I really don't want to order all this hardware then have it no be sufficient..

Also, i'm really unsure about the DVD part... if anyone has any suggestions on how to make my entire collection available to the network clients that would be great.

[meink]

Btw, the drives will be RAID 5

[blade]

I'm not an expert, but to be honest it looks like your server is way overkill. To put it in perspective my media server is an old Celeron 366mhz with 288 mb SDRAM and 2 WD 200 gig IDE drives (non-raid setup) and dual PVR-500's. I can record 4 shows at 3.5 gigs per hour while watching a pre-recorded show and running Show Analyzer without even a hiccup from my system.

I don't think Sage can take advantage of dual cpus so you'd probably be better of spending that extra cash on your client boxes. A single cpu system at around 3ghz and 512mb - 1 gig of ram should be more than enough power for a media server. The only way I can see you needing even that much power would be if you're going to do a lot of post processing.

[meink]

thats interesting.. lol i hope it is overkill

[meink]

i've like to be able to save some money on this and still see great performance.

[IKK]

I am assuming some of these rooms are bedrooms. Unless you really need to access your movie collection I would try to make the bedroom systems media MVP's, with rebates you could get them for around 90 bucks each. The reason I say this is I tried a bedroom client and the cost to make them quiet is really to much. Even though 3.0 cant run the MVP I am sure the support will be there soon. I use the MVP in my bedroom and it is great. Just wish the MVP remote was universal learning that would make my day.

[dvd_maniac]

Just my 2 cents:

I have 4x400GB Sata-150 hard drives on a 3ware card and have encoded my entire dvd collection (almost 1200 movies) in the h.264 Nero AVC codec. The movies average 425MB a piece. I have used around 500GB so far and still have half left. I also have 2 400GB drives for TV shows and recordings. If you do not care about having the extras and just want to watch the movie then you might consider encoding your movies and storing the original DVDs for safe keeping. Also cool not to have to find the dvd, especially if you are going into 5 different rooms with them.

[meink]

dvd_maniac: thats what I want to do! :-)

How does that work with SageTV though? If encoded in the Nero format..

[meink]

dvd_maniac: what do you think about the cpu/memory specs? Overkill in your opinion too? Also, approx how long did it take to rip + encode each of those dvds?

[stanger89]

meink, unless you'll be doing encoding on that box, you don't need that much CPU power. And if you will be encoding I'd probably go with a single Athlon 64 X2, probably the 4600.

Note that ripping (not encoding) is a trivial process, takes about 20 min/disk, and it's DVD drive limited. Now if you plan on encoding, you'll want all the CPU power you can get. If you're lucky, you'll be able to encode to a good codec (VC-9 or H.264) realtime, but probably not quite. Figure probably 1-2x realtime for encodes.

FWIW, with storage prices and DVD file sizes, it's more cost and time-effective to just get more storage and store the DVDs "movie-only" without any recompression.

[meink]

i guess i could always just rip + encode the dvds on my workstation. it really does look like my server may have been overkill.. glad I asked.

If I encoded the movies in the nero H.264 codec etc. How would they be accessible to the clients running SageTV. I'd like to have it so these clients could do access everything needed without the need for a keyboard + mouse.

Is this possible?

[RandyJohnson]

meink, I have just finished my second version of a Sage server and 3 Sage Clients.

Since I have whole house distribution/switching of the video/audio inputs to any TV, I have rack mounted all of the equipment in the basement. Out of sight out of mind.

For the server I am using the following configuration:

Asus Motherboard
2GB Memory
4.0TB SataII Raid 5 (Tekram Raid Controller) leaving 3.5TB usable.
Dual Gigabyte LAN on the motherbord. (Not sure if this does much as the SageClients are pointed to only one IP address) As Sage matures it would be nice if Sage would add the capability to have two IP addresses.
I am using a cheapo video card as I am only hooking this the a central monitor and keyboard in the rack.
3 PVR500 Capture cards

Each playback client is configured:

Gigabyte Motherboard GA-K8NXP-SLI
1 GB of Memory
dual on Board GB Lan
nvidia 7800 GTX
Rack Mount enclosure with dual 500 watt power supply.

So far I have installed 2.2.8 on all Sage computers.

I also have a Sage Client license on my home computer so that I can watch whatever Sage serves while I am working/playing on the computer.

It is planned to add a couple more clients configured exactly as above.

As soon as 3.0.x stablizes with regards to HD capture. I plan on adding an additional server just to handle the HD capture cards. So far I have played with the A180 and Fusion 5 Gold. The A180 sort of works and I have yet to get the Fusion to work in 3.0. Hauppauge says that they will have their HD cards out within the year.

My understanding is that there is a documented/unsupported way of having a "master server" and a "client server". This will be my next step to figure out. I need the additional server because the main server is out of PCI slots.

Once Sage 3.0 stablizes I plan on using Sage to handle all Live TV, Recorded TV, and to manage the DVD library.

Randy

[meink]

randy, you're my hero bud. thats pretty much the setup im planning.

[SHS]

Each clients running SageTV would need to have Nero Codec install
There are lot remote you get that work with SageTV client like Streamzap PC Remote Control, Firefly and sure there are other

[RandyJohnson]

meink..

FYI... the 4.0 TB server costs less than $4K to put together. That also included the expensive rack enclosure.

What control system are you using? I am using a Crestron control system.

Currently, the Crestron controls security, HVAC, drapes, home theater, and all of the lights in the house.

Crestron has a neet little gadget that enables the control software to send keyboard "clicks" via their CrestNet wiring. By looping the keyboard and mouse wires though this box, when I touch a button on the Crestron control touch pad the Sage is seeing the corresponding keyboard click.

The main thing that is missing as far as the Crestron is some type of feedback. It would be nice if there was a way of getting the Sage Clients exact state so that a "reposition" or "restore" of that state would be possible.

At present the feedback is visual in that I have arrow keys to move around the screen. And we have programmed a few other things like BACK, SELECT, etc.

If anybody is interested I am looking for a consultant who could help me finish out the installation. I am also willing to pay for their time.

Randy

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by meink

i guess i could always just rip + encode the dvds on my workstation. it really does look like my server may have been overkill.. glad I asked.

If I encoded the movies in the nero H.264 codec etc. How would they be accessible to the clients running SageTV. I'd like to have it so these clients could do access everything needed without the need for a keyboard + mouse.

Is this possible?

If you're going to take the time to encode them, I would seriously consider not using the all-in-one encoders (specifically recode or WMEncoder). I would stick with VC-9 (WM9) or H.264, but use something else to encode them so you can end up with VC-9/H.264 video and AC3 audio, an AVI container should work fine for these. Personally I'd opt for VC-9 since it's natively supported in Sage. The primary reason I'd go this way, is VC-9, H.264, and AC3 are all mandatory codecs for upcomming HD-DVD and Bluray, that indicates (in my estimation) that these formats will have the best chance of support on the widest variety of hardware, with the least messing.

FWIW, you can encode to VC-9+AC3 with virtualdub if you download the WM9 VCM codec.

[meink]

Well, I already have a 19" rack for mounting the equipment in. Yeah, the setup wont be too bad. As far as the home automation portion.. I was looking at crestron.. but it looks a little pricey. lol. How much did that setup run you?

[dvd_maniac]

How does that work with SageTV though? If encoded in the Nero format..

Stanger is right in that it is not natively supported in Sage. If you have Recode than you already have the codec installed and have to use an external video player in sage. I use ShowTime and with a lot of help from Opus, I have a GREAT working setup using the Hauppauge 45 button remote that comes with most of the Hauppauge cards now.

dvd_maniac: what do you think about the cpu/memory specs? Overkill in your opinion too? Also, approx how long did it take to rip + encode each of those dvds?

Definitely overkill. Stanger is right, get a AMD X2 and save some money for quieter Clients.
Using AVC Standard and all the defaults it usually takes around 150 minutes for a 2-pass encode of a 90 minute movie on my p4 3.0. Using AnyDVD will eliminate the ripping process and save you the 20 minutes.

If you're going to take the time to encode them, I would seriously consider not using the all-in-one encoders (specifically recode or WMEncoder). I would stick with VC-9 (WM9) or H.264,

I have done alot of reading (Especially from Doom9 and came to the conclusion that Nero Recode is the most mature h.264 implementation around. But it is true that it will not be compatible with the upcoming blu-ray/hd-dvd. However, if you want the sizes lower than the dvd bitrate than what is the sense of keeping it compatible? Since those discs are 25-50GB each and you'll have Clients everywhere in your home anyways. I have 2 clients and will finish off with 1 more and can not even imagine going back to set top boxes.

Just my 2 cents

[Tej]

Originally Posted by stanger89

If you're going to take the time to encode them, I would seriously consider not using the all-in-one encoders (specifically recode or WMEncoder). I would stick with VC-9 (WM9) or H.264, but use something else to encode them so you can end up with VC-9/H.264 video and AC3 audio, an AVI container should work fine for these. Personally I'd opt for VC-9 since it's natively supported in Sage. The primary reason I'd go this way, is VC-9, H.264, and AC3 are all mandatory codecs for upcomming HD-DVD and Bluray, that indicates (in my estimation) that these formats will have the best chance of support on the widest variety of hardware, with the least messing.

FWIW, you can encode to VC-9+AC3 with virtualdub if you download the WM9 VCM codec.

FYI, Nero Recode 2 now allows you to encode Dolby Digital 5.1 to H.264 as an option. Pretty easy to use, although just ripping the VOB files directly to the hard drive is easier and faster, at the expense of space.

If anyone out there is looking for an easy to use compression option, it's worth looking at, especially if phrases like "demuxing and muxing streams" makes your eyes glaze over.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by dvd_maniac

However, if you want the sizes lower than the dvd bitrate than what is the sense of keeping it compatible?

It's less about compatibility with the disks, and more about compatibility with hardware. AAC (Recode) audio and WMAPro audio aren't supported by much other than computers, while AC3 is supported by about everything.