Poor TV out Quality

[Mav]

Hello;
I am a new SageTV user and about a month or so ago I started working on a HTPC to replace my Tivo box. I setup a system and it has been working just fine in my basement-the 250 remote works and both cards seem to be working without any problems. I then decided to move it off my computer monitor and connect it up to my 32" Sony CRT in my living room. The problem is that the video quality is very poor. I can't read any text in windows (on the icons, etc.) and When I run SageTV 2.2 the picture quality looks fuzzy, soft and a little dark. Also the info displays (name of program, the timeshifter thingy at the bottom, etc.) are partly off the screen at the top and bottom when I have SageTV in Full Screen Mode. I figured out how to adjust the display using the overscan settings feature in detailed setup so now everything seems to be fitting in the screen, but again the picture quality is bad. I tried adjusting the picture with the Nvidia software, but really couldn't get it that much better. I tried different resolutions and color bits-again no improvement. I also tried increasing my capture quality to MPEG2 Max Quality, again didnt notice any improvements (just large files sizes-yikes!). I have tried looking in the FAQ's and searching on this site to get more information, but I was unable to find out any specific info to help me. My system is as follows:

Abit NF7-S2
Athlon XP 2400+
512MB PC3200 DDR
Nvidia GeForce 5200FX with Svideo Out to TV
Onboard Sound connected to TV via 3.5mm to RCA Jack
Hauppage pvr250 (recording analog cable via RG6 Coax Cable)
Hauppage PVR500MCE (recording analog cable via RG6 Coax Cable)
20GB IDE-OS and SageTV2.2.8
400GB IDE (formatted w/ 64K Clusters) for Captured shows

Video Source-Comcast Analog Cable only (not trying to record anything digital from STB at this time)

I am using the latest drives from Hauppage's site for my cards, and the latest version of the Nvidia Nforce Drivers software from nvidia.com. As far as SageTV settings go:

Video Renderer-Video Overlay Renderer
The only other choice I have is DirectX9 VMR9. I tried it, and it introduced a studdering effect or pausing effect every couple of seconds in the capture and again I could'nt see any improvement in picture quality.

MPEG2 Video Decoder Filter
only option I have is SageTV MPEG Video Decoder

DXVA MPEG Mode
Default

DXVA Deinterlacing
Default

DScaler Deinterlacing Filter
Disabled (I can't change this)

For all other sections (Multimedia, Audio, DVD, Commands, etc.) I didn't change anything (except for meddling with the overscan settings as mentioned above)so they are set to SageTV defaults.

I have read about things like NVidia Codecs, Dscaler, Power Strip, etc. but I do not know what any of this stuff is. I am starting to wonder if it is that video card just not being up to snuff, or my 4 year old 32" Sony TV being a CRT and not newer technology. Am I kidding myself using this video card? I have read about many using DVI to connect to their TV but obviously my Sony doesn't have anything like that and either does the video card. It does have Component Video Inputs, but I am not sure how I could utilize those with that Nvidia card-do they make a Svideo to Component Video Adapter? If so would it even help? I am sorry about the long winded post-I just want to provide as much info as possible. Thanks for your help,
Maverick

[michelkenny]

A lot of people here use a Geforce FX 5200 without any problems. First of all, how does the Sage menu itself look on your TV? If it is only the recordings that look poor then it is becuase you are using the Sage default decoder. I use the Nvidia PureVideo decoder and the recordings look great on my old 27" SDTV. You can buy it from Nvidia's site.

[Enormous]

I have almost the same setup that you do, and I can tell you it is NOT your hardward (motherboard, CPU, video card, or TV). I would suggest researching the NVidia PureVideo decoder, as that is what use. In my opinion, you won't regret spending the $20 (or whatever its current cost is). Also, try playing with the settings for your video card (under display properties->settings->advanced).

When I first started using Sage, I thought my PQ was pretty bad too. But after a little while tweaking, I was very happy with it.

[blade]

I agree, the Sage Decoder is horrible. I get much better results with the nvidia. They have a free trial so you can try it out before you buy.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/dvd_dec...150-trial.html

All you should have to do is install it then choose default decoder. When you playback a recording you should see the nvidia decoder icon in the tray. Click on the icon to adjust the settings.

Also are you certain your TV has component and not composite inputs? If your set is a HDTV then going with component and running at higher resolutions would make a huge difference.

[Enormous]

I connect to my 32" Sony SDTV via S-Video. I don't believe the hassle of trying to go from S-Video to component would be worth it, since from what I understand S-Video is able to deliver slightly better quality than component video.

[michelkenny]

I believe he was talking about component. From worst to best it goes composite -> svideo -> component. If your video card had component outputs it would be better than using svideo, but even if your TV does have component inputs you wouldn't be gaining anything by getting an svideo to component adapter (if that even exists) since the original output signal is still svideo.

[Enormous]

Originally Posted by michelkenny

I believe he was talking about component.

Gah! I always get those 2 mixed up. I even started writing my post saying 'component', but then confused myself and wrote 'composite' instead.

Original post has been changed to be un-confuzzled.

[Mav]

Guys;
First off I want to say thank you all for your responses! I am glad to hear that others are using a setup similar to mine and there is still some hope of me getting this resolved. I will use the link that Blade gave and download the trial of the Nvidia Purevideo Decoder and hopefully that will help me improve things. I definately don't mind spending another 20$-30$ if it fixes my problem!

To answer michelkenny's question-when SageTV is in full screen the text is readable. After my initial post I found out that Windows desktop, icons, text, etc. will look like crap on any SDTV. I just didn't know about this, so I am sorry about that.

To answer Blade's question-Yes I have them along with Svideo and composite. Currently my standalone DVD player is utilizing the component video inputs with a monster cable component Video cable (ends are yb, rg, and rb or something like that). I remember that monster cable costing me like $60 or $70. I didn't understand then why it was so expensive, but I do now.

Since my initial post, I have come up with some more questions that are related to my problem. It looks like the refresh rate gets locked in at 60hz by the nvidia software, but When it comes to the resolution of windows, what resolution should I be running? 800x600-32bit? 720X480? 480x600? I know I mentioned I changed my capture quality up to max, but is it necessary for me to have it up that high? I do plan on eventually moving some of these recording to DVD (once I have this problem resolved), but at that setting my captured shows are really huge (4-7GB/show!). What quality settings do you guys recommend for good enough quality for archiving off to DVD later? I have also read about a tool for hauppage cards from www.cask-of-amontillado.com/pvr_tweak.html. Have any of you used this tool to tweak your cards?

I also forgot to ask in my original post about Coaxial splitters-such as how many are ok to use and what type etc. Like in my situation, I currently have the comcast coax cable line coming into my basement and it goes into a 4 way splitter that is rated 5-2000(I think). From that splitter I have 1 end going to my cable modem, one end going upstairs to my small TV in my bedroom, one going upstairs to my living room TV where I want to put the HTPC, and the fourth one is not being used. The third line that goes to the living room comes out of the wall and goes into a 3 way splitter where I have 2 of the lines going to the 2 capture cards (the 250 and 500) and the third going to my Comcast STB for Digital cable channels. I don't think the rating on the second splitter is as good as the first (maybe something like 5-1000 or something like that-I don't remember at this time). Am I affecting my signal by using so many splitters?

Last question (I promise). In my gaming pc, I have an ATI9600XT card which I think has Svideo Out on it (I would have to check this to be for sure). If it does, would I get better results using it as opposed to the 5200 card? It would give me an excuse to get a better video card for gaming!
From what others have said, it sounds like I should be just fine with using the 5200 card, but this was just a thought that came to mind.

Sorry again for another long post. Thanks again for all of your help and advice!
Thanks,
Maverick

[salsbst]

I think you're likely to find, if you try it, that calibrating the capture card is a lot more important than choosing a decoder:

http://www.sage-community.org/index....ki/Calibration

[Enormous]

I run at 720x480, and for a long time I've been using DVD Standard capture quality.

I try to minimize the number of splits with my coax cable, as I have noticed quite a bit of signal degradation from splitting too much.

I agree with salsbst on the calibration too. It'll make a big difference.

[michelkenny]

Originally Posted by Mav

Guys;
I also forgot to ask in my original post about Coaxial splitters-such as how many are ok to use and what type etc. Like in my situation, I currently have the comcast coax cable line coming into my basement and it goes into a 4 way splitter that is rated 5-2000(I think). From that splitter I have 1 end going to my cable modem, one end going upstairs to my small TV in my bedroom, one going upstairs to my living room TV where I want to put the HTPC, and the fourth one is not being used. The third line that goes to the living room comes out of the wall and goes into a 3 way splitter where I have 2 of the lines going to the 2 capture cards (the 250 and 500) and the third going to my Comcast STB for Digital cable channels. I don't think the rating on the second splitter is as good as the first (maybe something like 5-1000 or something like that-I don't remember at this time). Am I affecting my signal by using so many splitters?

When it comes to coaxial splitters, the more you split the weaker the signal gets. The way I have mine setup is the coaxial cable from the cable company goes into a 4-way splitter/amplifier, which then goes to my TVs and Sage Server. Before when I was using a normal 4-way splitter I noticed that the picture quality on the TV itself (not going through the PVR) wasn't that great because the signal was too weak. So I got the 4-way splitter/amplifier and it made a big difference. If the picture quality on your TV (when plugged directly to the coaxial cable) is poor, then you'll need an amplifier. If it is fine then you'll have to tweak some settings/get a better decoder to improve the quality on your Sage Server.

[nielm]

Source quality is important, but also note that when using SVideo out (not VGA/component/DVI), good deinterlacing is also important to avoid deinter

See this post for my setup (also using an Nvidia 5200FX), and reasons why deinterlacing is important.

Originally Posted by blade

I agree, the Sage Decoder is horrible.

But with Dscaler deinterlacing switched on the PQ is pretty good...

Note: You need to install an import module (see customisation links in my sig) to enable Dscaler deinterlacing with Sage decoder in 2.2.

Also make sure in the Nvidia control panel applet that the Advanced Timings and Refresh Rate match the video standard in use.

[Enormous]

Originally Posted by nielm

Also make sure in the Nvidia control panel applet that the Advanced Timings and Refresh Rate match the video standard in use.

Can you expand on this a little more? Which NVidia control panel are you referring to (the decoder one, or the display settings one)? I'd like to know more about this because it sounds like something I may have been missing all this time!

[blade]

Originally Posted by nielm

But with Dscaler deinterlacing switched on the PQ is pretty good...

I'm sure you're much better at tweaking things than I am, but with my setup even with Dscaler and the Greedy2Frame plugin PQ is still vastly worse than with the nvidia decoder.

I'm still learning about tweaking this stuff so I try just about everything you guys suggest at least once.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by Enormous

Can you expand on this a little more? Which NVidia control panel are you referring to (the decoder one, or the display settings one)? I'd like to know more about this because it sounds like something I may have been missing all this time!

display settings/settings/advanced/GeForce5200 tab/Screen resolutions+refresh rates/advanced timing

blade: I have not tried Nvidia decoder for a while, maybe it's time for another look (it broke my system last time!). The advantage of sage+dscaler is that it is free...

[Enormous]

Originally Posted by nielm

display settings/settings/advanced/GeForce5200 tab/Screen resolutions+refresh rates/advanced timing

Thanks. I also found your other post on this here.

I changed mine to the 720x480@59.94, but now I get black borders around the whole screen (running an older Sony 32" SDTV). Any hints as to what needs tweaked? I think that my PQ is a little better, but the borders are eating up a lot of screen real estate.

Also, any idea how to go back to the original settings? I tried changing resolutions and switching back, but the advanced timings still stay set. Thanks again.

[Enormous]

Doh! I realized that I just need to go back in and re-adjust the output size under TV Settings. No more black bars. Disregard the previous message!

[heckheck]

Once you go component, you'll never go back. The setup I use is a tad expensive, but I wouldn't go any other way, having compared SVideo output against Component using two different TV inputs and switching back and forth with the same Sage content and settings. A lot of the low quality of SVideo has to do with the crappy design of most video cards' SVideo cicuitry. I have a stand alone DVD player that gives a much better picture into the same SVideo input on the TV, so I know it is the computer side that introduces the soft sometimes grainy picture that is so universal among computer video cards.

Here is the setup I use for my Sage TV setup, which works VERY well. I use a Sony XBR 32 inch TV with first generation component video input, in conjunction with a component video converter. This setup makes my TV essentially a VGA resolution 640x480 interlaced monitor. One of the reasons the SVideo output on cards is so bad, is that an additional conversion is made on the video to drive this output, thus losing qulaity and suffering a usually bad interlace job. I am using an ATI 9600 SE card in conjunction with a Key Digital KD-VTCA3 VGA to Component Video Adapter. I run the VGA input into the converter, which is setup for SCART composite sync on H. I then use PowerStrip to carefully setup the video card for compatiblity with the TV. The following are the settings

640x480 resolution
29Hz Custom Timing
Composite Sync
Interlaced
+ Horizontal Sync
+ Vertical Sync
12.937MHz Pixel Clock

Horizontal settings
15.549 KHz
Active 640 49.471
FP 41 3.169
SW 64 4.947
BP 87 6.725
Total 832 64.312

Vertical settings
29.902 Hz
Active 480 30.870
FP 0 0.00
SW 28 1.801
BP 12 0.772
Total 520 33.442

Before setting the PowerStrip settings, I had also gone into the Sony internal menus ([PWR OFF] [DISP] [5] [VOL+] [PWR ON]) on the TV and done some modifications, tuning it using the Video Essentials DVD.

heckheck