R5000-HD capture via USB2 & SageTV

[MarkV]

After minimal futzing, I was able to get SageTV up and running on my R5000-HD recording system and a single client. It's pretty dang cool.

Couple of questions (of course)

Since everything one watches gets recorded as a file (at least it appears to be creating files in addition to the mpegbuffer file), what's the best way to automate cleanup?

Does setting the recording quality matter? I definitely want the native ts stream. Is that default or "max"?

thx

[roxy99]

Just wanted to post a quick warning to users of r5000 and prospective users to check out this thread:
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22543

If your satelite provider ever implements the 5C flag then you'll be SOL. For a $500 R5000 hack, that would'nt be pretty. R5000 does NOT bypass 5C or else the company would be in a lot of legal trouble. That means that 5C would restrict the channels where the flag is activated.

Please don't flame me just passing along the info.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by MarkV

Since everything one watches gets recorded as a file (at least it appears to be creating files in addition to the mpegbuffer file), what's the best way to automate cleanup?

Does setting the recording quality matter? I definitely want the native ts stream. Is that default or "max"?

There's a setting under Customize called "Delete Live TV files when not using Intelligent Recording" or something like that. Enable that for automatic cleanup.

Recording quality settings are for SD encoders only. HD streams are already encoded at the source and are just written to disk as they come in.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by roxy99

Just wanted to post a quick warning to users of r5000 and prospective users to check out this thread:
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22543

If your satelite provider ever implements the 5C flag then you'll be SOL. For a $500 R5000 hack, that would'nt be pretty. R5000 does NOT bypass 5C or else the company would be in a lot of legal trouble. That means that 5C would restrict the channels where the flag is activated.

Please don't flame me just passing along the info.

Yep 5C is evil like that. But Nextcom will not modify a 5C enabled device, so no issue. If you have an R5000, you dont care about 5C. Very simple!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by MarkV

Since everything one watches gets recorded as a file (at least it appears to be creating files in addition to the mpegbuffer file), what's the best way to automate cleanup?

SageTV cleans up on it's own. The setting mentioned above can affect how quickly that cleanup happens for live TV.

Does setting the recording quality matter? I definitely want the native ts stream. Is that default or "max"?

No, recording quality has no effect on "digital" recordings like the R5000. Though it's possible you may want to change the default recording quality for the R5000 to more accurately allow Sage to predict the size needed for R5000 recordings (this has no operational effect, but does impact things like "hours available" and the disk space bar if you use that).

[Keenan]

Originally Posted by Kirby

Must be nice to get new channels in full 1080i resolution and MPEG-2... if you tell me they are high (17+ mbit) bitrate I'm gonna scream!

Yes, it's nice to able to finally view the channels through Sage, but I haven't recorded anything off them yet as it's mostly a lot of crap. A&E, NatGeo and Showcase-HD run a lot of 4x3 stuff. Disc-HD is okay, but I think I've seen everything they have at least once. I am curious to see how "Rescue Me" is going to be presented on Showcase-HD though, also wondering if it will be somewhat current, like how The Movie Network does with Stargate:Atlantis in HD.

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by roxy99

Just wanted to post a quick warning to users of r5000 and prospective users to check out this thread:
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22543

If your satelite provider ever implements the 5C flag then you'll be SOL. For a $500 R5000 hack, that would'nt be pretty. R5000 does NOT bypass 5C or else the company would be in a lot of legal trouble. That means that 5C would restrict the channels where the flag is activated.

Please don't flame me just passing along the info.

My situation with firewire off cable is a bit different from sat. The cable box i have has a built in firewire port. The box has always been 5c equipped, just most channels were left open.

The r5000 is taking the mpeg2 stream thats coming in from satellite, letting the box decrypt it, and then piping it thru firewire somehow. Im 99.9% certain that the SatCo couldnt just flip a switch and turn on 5c encryption.

I am however a little surprised that Dish Network or DirecTV havent written the r5000 guys a cease and desist letter. They might just be flying under the radar.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by roxy99

Just wanted to post a quick warning to users of r5000 and prospective users to check out this thread:
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22543

I see kirby already handled this but I think further explanation is in order since there seems to be a great deal of confusion in regards to encryption, DTCP, "5C", etc.

First things first, cable and satellite are different systems, with different access protections and encryption (eg Dish uses DVB-S and Nagravision 2, while cable uses QAM and Digicipher II).

Now, when people here say "5C", they're referring to more than one thing. 5C, or more correctly DTCP (Digital Transmission Content Protection) is an encryption/protection protocol for protecting audio/video as it crosses digital connections such as IEEE 1394. Nothing more, northing less. 5C comes from the companies that created DTCP, Hitachi, Intel, MEI, Sony, and Toshiba, the "5C".

DTCP starts and ends on the firewire connection between the cable box and the receiving device, ie the PC.

There's no DTCP on the cable between the cable company and your house, and there's no DTCP in the bistream that the cable box extracts.

In fact, the TS stream used by cable is very similar to that used for digital OTA. It consists of several MPEG video and DD audio streams (programs) and also metadata that describes those programs. Included in that metadata is a a flag that describes the "copyability" of a given program, in essence, it's the same as what the broadcast flag would have been.

Now, here is where the copy flag and DTCP come together. Cable boxes (by mandate of the FCC I believe) must provide a firewire output to allow recording. However it's been decided that it's OK for said Firewire output to require DTCP and a DTCP capable recorder (eg D-VHS). If the currently tuned program is set to Copy Once, the the cable box will require the firewire connection to use DTCP to protect the content, and part of that is to require a proper handshake with the reciever. PCs are not DTCP capable so they can't handshake and can't record.

A couple things to note:

First, the encryption or not of the channel/program has nothing to do with DTCP.

Second, DTCP is only applicable to the firewire port.

OK, so where am I going with this. Well you see Satellite boxes are different than cable boxes in one, very important way. They lack a "recordable" digital output, ie firewire. As such, they are not DTCP compliant, and are not subject to DTCP licensing.

What does all that mean? Well it means satellite boxes don't bother looking at a "copy flag" (assuming one is present on satellite signals) since there is no "copyable" output. This also means an R5000 mod is perfectly capable, and it's perfectly legal for one to allow recording of "copy once" content, because there are no restrictions on the box.

How is that different than cable? Again, lack of the "recordable" port (firewire). One thing you'll notice if you read the Nextcom site is that they will/can mod non-firewire equiped cable boxes. Why can they do that? For the same reason they can to sat boxes.

What makes most new cable boxes different is the DTCP compliant firewire port, which introduces robustness requirements onto the box for securing the data inside the box, as well as over the firewire connection. Thus with these boxes it is not legal to do an R5000 type mod because (assuming it's possible) it would be circumventing the protections in place in the box, and the DTCP compliant firewire port.

Again, satellite boxes lack the DTCP Firewire port, and therefore lack the the licensing and legal restrictions that affect cable boxes and other DTCP devices.

If your satelite provider ever implements the 5C flag then you'll be SOL.

So no you're not SOL.

For a $500 R5000 hack, that would'nt be pretty.

It's a mod

R5000 does NOT bypass 5C or else the company would be in a lot of legal trouble.

No it does not bypass it, the R5000 moded box completely ignores the copy flag (remember not DTCP in sat boxes) and the R5000 is completely unaffected by the copy flag.

That means that 5C would restrict the channels where the flag is activated.

Not on a sat box. Now if they start adding firewire outputs and DTCP to sat boxes things will change.

[Kirby]

Thats exactly what I said, but in about 300 more words

Seriously though, there is a lot of confusion with people talking about 5C. Thanks for the informative post.

Also, for you cable guys out there, you can still do an R5000 mod, but it has to be on a STB that does not have a firewire port. They exist, usually they are just the SD boxes. My old SD cable box would tune all HD channels, but the cable company would not authorize it for the HD tier. That meant no Discovery, ESPN's, HDnet's. But it would still tune the OTA networks, and premium HD channels (HBO, Sho, Skinmax, etc) because those were tied to the SD packages and not a special HD tier. If you can convince your cable guy to auth the box you are all set.

[roxy99]

Thanks stranger I get it. The satelite box doesn't have firewire and doesn't need to be compliant to 5C. Therefor any flag in the stream is ignored by the the satelite box and the output is free to be copied.

[olyar15]

And if you have a HD cable box without a firewire output, that too can be modified without worrying about 5C flag.

[roxy99]

Originally Posted by olyar15

And if you have a HD cable box without a firewire output, that too can be modified without worrying about 5C flag.

Makes you wonder how there is such a loop hole in the system. I suppose most new sat tuners are now 5C enabled. My Satelite Bell 9200 HD PVR has a usb port - probably has 5C.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by roxy99

Makes you wonder how there is such a loop hole in the system. I suppose most new sat tuners are now 5C enabled. My Satelite Bell 9200 HD PVR has a usb port - probably has 5C.

Nope, USB isnt part of the 5C path. Firewire is. No satellite boxes anywhere in North America (to my knowledge) have 5C or a firewire port.

[roxy99]

Originally Posted by Kirby

Nope, USB isnt part of the 5C path. Firewire is. No satellite boxes anywhere in North America (to my knowledge) have 5C or a firewire port.

If thats the case then I may be in the market for a r5000 in the next year or so.

Why such an obvious loophole then? Every indication is that satelite HD is equivalent to cable hd and yet 5c is only zeroeing in on cable boxes.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by roxy99

If thats the case then I may be in the market for a r5000 in the next year or so.

Why such an obvious loophole then? Every indication is that satelite HD is equivalent to cable hd and yet 5c is only zeroeing in on cable boxes.

Why do you insist on calling this a loophole?? Encryption is normally the exception with media rights, not the rule. In the US, this is covered on fair use rights. Heck, overseas the DBS operators even officially support PC based DVB-S cards that allow unrestricted recording of content, even HD content.

All this 5C crap is a diversion from the way things normally are. Encryption was used for fraud prevention (ie stealing programming) not content control.

The R5000-HD is not a loophole. What is amazing to me is why people put up with this nonsense where our digital rights are so much more restricted than analog rights.

Thanks,
Mike

[Kirby]

Its not a loophole any more than cable boxes. Nobody ever said that a firewire enabled cable box cant be modified with R5000. Its a matter of it being illegal to bypass 5C per the various laws of the USA.

Cable boxes did not add firewire ports to limit a mod like the R5000, they did it because they were forced to provide a 5C output (thanks Hollywood) so that consumers could legally record to 5C enabled devices (DVHS) provided the show is flagged correctly. The side effect of this was that Nextcom could not legally modify these receivers without breaking laws.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Why do you insist on calling this a loophole?? Encryption is normally the exception with media rights, not the rule. In the US, this is covered on fair use rights. Heck, overseas the DBS operators even officially support PC based DVB-S cards that allow unrestricted recording of content, even HD content.

All this 5C crap is a diversion from the way things normally are. Encryption was used for fraud prevention (ie stealing programming) not content control.

The R5000-HD is not a loophole. What is amazing to me is why people put up with this nonsense where our digital rights are so much more restricted than analog rights.

Thanks,
Mike

We can thank Hollywood and the Studios for all of it. And I'm sure RIAA is in there too!

[roxy99]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Why do you insist on calling this a loophole?? Encryption is normally the exception with media rights, not the rule. In the US, this is covered on fair use rights. Heck, overseas the DBS operators even officially support PC based DVB-S cards that allow unrestricted recording of content, even HD content.

All this 5C crap is a diversion from the way things normally are. Encryption was used for fraud prevention (ie stealing programming) not content control.

The R5000-HD is not a loophole. What is amazing to me is why people put up with this nonsense where our digital rights are so much more restricted than analog rights.

Thanks,
Mike

ok ok don't take it out on me. All I am saying is that this DRM crap is inconsistent. On the one hand firewire enabled devices are covered by DRM and set satelite boxes not. That's all.

BTW, I'm on your side- I am totally against DRM in all its forms.

Regarding, putting up with it, peeps should boycott firewire cable boxes and opt for the R5000 which totally works.

[roxy99]

Originally Posted by Kirby

Its not a loophole any more than cable boxes. Nobody ever said that a firewire enabled cable box cant be modified with R5000. Its a matter of it being illegal to bypass 5C per the various laws of the USA.

Cable boxes did not add firewire ports to limit a mod like the R5000, they did it because they were forced to provide a 5C output (thanks Hollywood) so that consumers could legally record to 5C enabled devices (DVHS) provided the show is flagged correctly. The side effect of this was that Nextcom could not legally modify these receivers without breaking laws.

Agreed. What's next is my question? Will they force the same onto satelite boxes now. That's my whole point. Excuse my poor choice of words (re:loophole)

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by roxy99

Agreed. What's next is my question? Will they force the same onto satelite boxes now. That's my whole point. Excuse my poor choice of words (re:loophole)

I doubt it. Besides, who cares? There are no shortage of current satellite boxes that can be modified, so who cares if one comes out in a year with a firewire port?

As for boycotting firewire devices, it wont do diddly.

I was actually incorrect above, 5C can be done over USB, and another connector (forgot the name of it) but I have never heard of it used on anything but firewire.