Well it Happened

[lobosrul]

I got home yesterday and commiecast had 5C'd every channel except the locals.

GJ losing a customer.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

I got home yesterday and commiecast had 5C'd every channel except the locals.

GJ losing a customer.

What market are you in? I assume this is from the 1394 interface, and not direct QAM tuning?

thanks,
mike

[roxy99]

Can you translate what is 5C?

[hemicuda]

I'm not the authority on this, but I think "5C" is a hex value in some encryption(?) string transmitted from the provider that prevents recording of HD programming through firewire on the cable box.

[Fluffdaddy]

we knew this was coming

[lobosrul]

Market: Albuqueruqe

Yes, I mean the firewire/1394 connection. I dont get anything but locals on QAM (same that I get from firewire now).

5C: This is similar to HDCP encryption. They set every channel to "copy once" it seems. Which means the box will only output on firewire to "trusted devices". What those devices are exactly, I dont know.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by roxy99

Can you translate what is 5C?

Well 5C is a nickname for DTCP (Digital Transmission Content Protection), in essense it's a method of encrypting video/data of digital connections (namely Firewire).

It's also commonly used to describe a sort of "family" of technologies that are all interconnected, those being recording flags in the broadcast and certification/authorization of recording devices.

In the context here, and what 5C being "enabled" or on, or "5C'd" means, is that the cable company (or it's provider) has chosen to flag content as "Copy Once" or "Copy Never". Either of these options causes the cable box to require DTCP on the Firewire output.

That, in turn, requires the recieving device to be DTCP capable too, and sadly, no PCs are DTCP capable, so PCs can't record if DTCP is required/enabled. There are some devices (D-VHS decks) that are DTCP capable and can record Copy Once content.

[mightyt]

So ... for the less digiTV savvy folks like me and using your crystal ball, what does this mean for people like me who have invested in Sage devices for over two years now and are considering expanding even further? Is it all for nothing? Will my Sage box run out of steam not being able to record one day? Will there be a way PC's can get 5c programming or is that unlikely? I guess what I am saying is I have seen this discussion come up several times over the last year and it seems bleak. Is there any point to grow my Sage environment further, only to be surprised one day, as lobosrul has, with a less than useful PVR?? If so, when is this likely to happen? One, two ... ten years from now? (use your Crystal ball again)

Why would I set up a second server, get an MVP and try Placeshifter if PVR Armageddon is coming ...

Or am I getting wound up over nothing??

Thanks, T.

[jbarr]

I know this obviously doesn't help the HD crowd, but as long as you have a composite or S-video output, SageTV will forever be useful--though just for SD.

The logical conclusion of the broadcasters moving to full digital, combined with the proliferation of digital TV's (which may eventually only provide digital connections) means that the industry could certainly place complete controls over what and how we watch TV. Of course, by then, it may be too late, becasue all of the equipment manufacturers will be "compliant" leaving only a black or grey market to provide ways around digital connections.

Digital technologies boil down to being a double-edged sword. Take .mp3 technology. On one hand, consumers get great quality media, but on the other hand, by imposing DRM gives "the industries" ultimate control. Thus the huge sector of "illegal" downloads. In the case of digital TV, I believe it is likely that things will slide far into the control of the industry and out of control of the users. Ultimately, the only way to combat this would be through legislation. Conspiracy theory? Maybe, but I believe not unlikely.

</soapbox>

[roxy99]

As long as SD is around Sage will remain viable. HD has been a very slow evolution since the mid 1990's am I correct? So it will probably take 30 years before SD completely disappears. I could be wrong though.
Anyone have any estimates as to when Standard Def will disapper.

There is another way to combat DRM besides legislation called piracy. How long did it take to decrypt DVD copy protection? A couple of weeks after its introdution and we were able to copy DVDs.

There will always be a way to bypass copy protection but it will never be legitimized by definition of course.

There probably already exists a bypass to the 5C flag.

[Polypro]

My uneducated musings:

1. AFAIK, the sunsetting of SD *broadcasting*, only applies to Over The Air transmissions from the networks. The cable companies can do what they want, when they want. (Could they/Would they down convert DTV and send it over the line as analog for people like my grandmother with old sets?)

2. I *ass-u-me* that once a majority of the country has QAM capable tuners (mandated for larger sets now?), The cable companies could switch to QAM and could then "Un-5C" their Basic packages. Just like analog is now...plug in from the wall and get the basic stuff. (They want the cable box rental money, but can they mandate a cable box for evrything...is there a law?)

3. PC Cable Cards will be interesting. I know they say it won't be possible to use one in non-approved PC's, but I just don't believe it won't happen. I remember the old "H" Card DirecTV days and now the *possible* HD-DVD saga.

4. S-Vid out, of digital content on a box, is still pretty good...much better than analog from the wall.

P

[lobosrul]

First off, I think you guys are confusing the terms HD/SD with digital/analog.

Analog TV is going to disapear quicker than some of you think. OTA analog signals are going to be turned off in about 2 years time. You guys really dont think that cable wont follow a few years later? (this applies to the USA).

SD over digital is quite common, and will not go away for a very long time (there will always be reruns and who needs CSPAN in HD).

Yes I can definantly still use the box to output on svideo to an analog card. But what a waste! That means decoding the mpeg2 stream out from the box then re-encoding it to my pc with a TV capture card, then decoding it again for display!

Also, talking about circumventing encrpytion schemes on this forum is prohibited. But I will say from what I've read, 5C encryption looks rock solid.

To sum up: if any of you guys are perfectly happy with analog capture you dont really have any reason to panic. You may be forced into using a cable box in several years, however I dont see them disabling the s-video/component output port for a very long time. That would piss off way too many people.

[roxy99]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

First off, I think you guys are confusing the terms HD/SD with digital/analog.

Analog TV is going to disapear quicker than some of you think. OTA analog signals are going to be turned off in about 2 years time. You guys really dont think that cable wont follow a few years later? (this applies to the USA).

SD over digital is quite common, and will not go away for a very long time (there will always be reruns and who needs CSPAN in HD).

Yes I can definantly still use the box to output on svideo to an analog card. But what a waste! That means decoding the mpeg2 stream out from the box then re-encoding it to my pc with a TV capture card, then decoding it again for display!


Also, talking about circumventing encrpytion schemes on this forum is prohibited. But I will say from what I've read, 5C encryption looks rock solid.

To sum up: if any of you guys are perfectly happy with analog capture you dont really have any reason to panic. You may be forced into using a cable box in several years, however I dont see them disabling the s-video/component output port for a very long time. That would piss off way too many people.

I agree. Capturing from QAM via SVideo is always analog. It will be SD and it will be analogue until converted by the capture card back to digital. Yes there is quality loss. However, exceptional picture quality can still be achieved with a good set up. It just won't be crisp HD but it will be very good SD so no need to worry.

Originally Posted by lobosrul

Yes I can definantly still use the box to output on svideo to an analog card. But what a waste! That means decoding the mpeg2 stream out from the box then re-encoding it to my pc with a TV capture card, then decoding it again for display!

Yes it is a pity if you have to compromise on HD. However the good news is your video card can send DVI out so there doesn't need to be a second decode to the display. Once SVideo out, the '5C' disappears so you can leave the signal it in the digital domain. But you can certainly kiss you 1080i goodbye. On the bright side, SD can look pretty decent.

[lobosrul]

However the good news is your video card can send DVI out so there doesn't need to be a second decode to the display.

Well, I do use DVI, however Sage (or NVIDIA Purevideo) still needs to decode the MPEG file. DVI is a raw uncompressed digital signal.

Also, right now the only TV card I have is an ATI HD Wonder. The software analog capture is crap. So I would need to buy a real analog TV card. Agh I need to think things over before dumping comcast.

[roxy99]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

However the good news is your video card can send DVI out so there doesn't need to be a second decode to the display.

Well, I do use DVI, however Sage (or NVIDIA Purevideo) still needs to decode the MPEG file. DVI is a raw uncompressed digital signal.

Also, right now the only TV card I have is an ATI HD Wonder. The software analog capture is crap. So I would need to buy a real analog TV card. Agh I need to think things over before dumping comcast.

I feel for you if you lost all your HD recording ability. Do some damage control and at least get yourself a hardware based non-HD analog mpeg2 decoder card.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PolyPro

(They want the cable box rental money, but can they mandate a cable box for evrything...is there a law?)

That's what satellite does.

Originally Posted by lobosrul

First off, I think you guys are confusing the terms HD/SD with digital/analog.

Analog TV is going to disapear quicker than some of you think. OTA analog signals are going to be turned off in about 2 years time. You guys really dont think that cable wont follow a few years later? (this applies to the USA).

Theyre working on it, but it will be a long, long time before analog outputs disappear.

SD over digital is quite common, and will not go away for a very long time (there will always be reruns and who needs CSPAN in HD).

Yes I can definantly still use the box to output on svideo to an analog card. But what a waste! That means decoding the mpeg2 stream out from the box then re-encoding it to my pc with a TV capture card, then decoding it again for display!

Some would say that's better than submitting to copy protection, and 'trusted' devices.

Also, talking about circumventing encrpytion schemes on this forum is prohibited. But I will say from what I've read, 5C encryption looks rock solid.

How to cirumvent yes, but I would venture discussion of copy protection, the implications of it's use, and the ability to (but not methods of) circumvention are allowed.

To sum up: if any of you guys are perfectly happy with analog capture you dont really have any reason to panic. You may be forced into using a cable box in several years, however I dont see them disabling the s-video/component output port for a very long time. That would piss off way too many people.

Everybody (pretty much) with DirecTV, Dish Network, digital cable, or IPTV is already in this boat.

[flavius]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

I got home yesterday and commiecast had 5C'd every channel except the locals.

Well, that's one of the reasons why I never bothered with using a pc for hd recordings, be it Sage or BTV or anything else.

I got myself the Dual Tuner HD STB as soon as I could. The interface is really lousy, but I can receive (and record) everything.