Remote Drive Access?

[jimbruskalski]

Hello, I am uneducated to the point where I am not even sure if this is the correct place for this post. Here is my situation that I hope SageTV will solve:

I have a server (for data and media) with a TV tuner card and a HTPC that connects to a a/v receiver and through that to the HDTV. I get that I can watch and record TV shows through the network and stream music and what not. I have a rather large library of DVDs that I have accumulated over time. I want to have all my DVDs on the server, so I do not have to actually physically locate the DVD and play it locally (kind of like on-demand cable, but MY DVDs).

To my knowledge, I can rip it and transform it to Divx or AVI or some other format of choice. I dont like this idea because now it has lost its chapter and menu information and I can no longer skip to a later chapter because it is simply a long video file.

I found a software that will allow me to emulate a DVD from an image automatically. Essentially, it creates a virtual drive on the server and mounts the DVD's image as if it is the DVD. This allows me to keep all the DVD qualities of my DVDs AND have it all located on my server. It even allows me to index the movies (even though they are merely images of DVDs). The problem is, I am not sure if I can play this on the HDTV through the HTPC using SageTV (or any other software for that matter). I can share the network drive like any other drive or folder on my network. Could SageTV play from that shared DVD on the remote server machine? If not, is there a different way to achieve what I am trying to do (with SageTV or some other software)? I have been researching this for quite some time and have not gotten very far. Thanks.

Andrew

[Mortanis]

If you rip the DVD folder style (VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS), Sage can read them natively. I have a few of mine done in this style. Create a main folder, a folder for each dvd, dump the VTS and ATS folders inside it, and make sure the main folder is included as one of the Video Import Directories.

Works like a charm. Menus, Chapters, and everything.

I cannot, however, comment on a remote version of the above. It seems to me that a 100t network would be fast enough to stream over, but I can't confirm that. The math part of my brain is currently asleep.

[stanger89]

Yes, I do exactly that:

Media Server:
Athlon XP 1800
NF7-S2G (Gigabit Ethernet)
512MB ram
3ware Escalade 7506-8
8x 250GB drives in RAID-5
1x 200GB drive for Sage recordings
SageTV
I have >250 DVDs on the RAID each with it's own directory, ie:
W:\DVDs contains my DVD rips
Each DVD has a folder (ie "W:\DVD\The Matrix") which contains a full DVD structure (VIDEO_TS\*.*).
SageTV is set to import \\thunderbird\DVDs (W:\ is shared as "DVDs")
The server is headless

Client:
Athlon 64 3400
1GB Ram (IIRC)
Geforce 6800 (passive Gigabyte model )
M-Cubed tBalancer fan controller
Antec Phantom 350 (fanless PSU)
40GB Toshiba Laptop drive.
SageClient

In SageTV it all shows up under the Imported Videos, there's a folder "DVDs", with an entry for each DVD folder I have. I can play them directly from the client without issue.

-edit

Oh two more things:

1) For films, I rip just the movie, this saves probably 40% space for those. Menues and extras are lost, but chapers are retained.
2) IVL and DVDPro2Sage are a bit of a pet project of mine to improve the standard SageTV video library. Far from done, but take a look.

[jimbruskalski]

What do you mean folder style (VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS)? How do I rip it this way? What file format is this in? I am not sure I follow. Thanks.

Andrew

[stanger89]

It means a structure like this:
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.BUP
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.IFO
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.BUP
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.IFO
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.VOB
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_2.VOB
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_3.VOB
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_4.VOB
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_5.VOB
W:\DVDs\The Matrix\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_6.VOB

Basically if you put the DVD in the drive and open it in Windows explorer your rip should look like that. In DVDShrink it's the default method, other programs refer to it as "File mode" or something similar. Make sure you keep (or create) the VIDEO_TS folder as Sage uses that to determine it's a DVD and not just a bunch of files.

[jimbruskalski]

How can I get the DVD information like title, cover art, etc? Thanks so much.

Andrew

[stanger89]

You'll need to pull it from DVD Profiler (or IMDB) SageMC, Meekell, and IVL have that capability.

[mike1961]

Okay - here's what I do and it's real simple:

1. You can use a freeware / shareware program like DVDShrink or DVDFabDecryptor to easily copy the entire DVD to your computer. Be sure to copy everything in uncompressed video which takes about 20 min or so and occupies around 6 gigs.

2. Buy a program like Nero Recode (part of Nero 7 Ultra Edition which I purchased for around $100 with an immediate download online.

Nero Recod is really easy to use. I use the Standard AVC profile settings which are better than DIVX or XVID (about twice as good). My 6 gig 2 hour videos go down to around 250 megs per hour. I cannot tell the difference in video quality between the final 500 meg 2 hour video and my 6 gig dvd. I encode around 500 kbps but be sure to use the AVC profile setting for high quality.

3. Do it at night - go to sleep - wake up and 8 hours later it's done. Or you can just run it in the background during the day.

4. Use a great Sage customization like nielm's GermSage to have Sage directly interface with any media player like Nero Showtime or another to play the mpeg 4 files that you can easily transfer to the Sage Media Center.

(Yes - Nero automatically preserves all the chapter settings and you can easily program your remote to use channel up and channel down to switch chapters and you can even add your own chapters or remove them if you like. Oh - you can even add one language of subtitles if you like which only costs you a few extra megabytes and I believe it supports other audio languages as well from the DVD but I didn't bother with that because I didn't want to bloat the video for something I would probably never use. This is all contained in the final mp4 video file).

It's just totally awesome. I no longer have to look for DVD's that are either behind the TV or in my 6 year old kid's closet somewhere.

5. I have 2 hard drives. One for permanent storage with mp4 files and the other for standard temp storage Sage videos. This way, only one drive is fragmented while the perm video drive is fairly clean. Figure you can get at least 1000 movies on one 500 gb hard drive. More than you will probably ever need and you can easily back it up in a few hours.

Mike

[jimbruskalski]

The mp4, you say there is no loss in quality really. What if these were to be viewed on a 50" DLP HDTV set? I know they are not HD quality, but I dont want it to look like crap bc the resolution is so high on it. I just want to make sure the inability to notice a loss of quality is not due to the fact that it is being viewed at such a low resolution. I dont know much about video formats. Please enlighten me. Thanks.

Andrew

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mike1961

2. Buy a program like Nero Recode (part of Nero 7 Ultra Edition which I purchased for around $100 with an immediate download online.

Nero Recod is really easy to use. I use the Standard AVC profile settings which are better than DIVX or XVID (about twice as good). My 6 gig 2 hour videos go down to around 250 megs per hour. I cannot tell the difference in video quality between the final 500 meg 2 hour video and my 6 gig dvd. I encode around 500 kbps but be sure to use the AVC profile setting for high quality.

An opposing viewpoint, I am not a fan of re-encoding DVDs to a different format. As noted it takes a very long time, it's a good deal of work, and well, the result is going to be worse, lossy codec (MPEG-2 on DVD) to another lossy codec (ie nero digital) will result in loss.

AVC is at best 2 or maybe 3x more efficient than MPEG-2, that means for the same quality, under ideal conditions you're looking at 2-3GB for a recoded DVD.

Plus you lose menues, chapters, etc (ok I guess Nero Recode retains chapters). But unless you're in for a lot of work you lose AC3 (DD/DTS) audio as Recode converts it to AC3. Plus application support is still pretty limited, rather far behind DVD/MPEG-2 support. With 500 and 750HDDs, I'd just get the extra space to keep DVDs "uncompressed". If space is an issue you can use DVDShrink to keep only the main movie and audio track you want. That usually saves 3-4GB/movie.

4. Use a great Sage customization like nielm's GermSage to have Sage directly interface with any media player like Nero Showtime or another to play the mpeg 4 files that you can easily transfer to the Sage Media Center.

The application support thing I mentioned.

It's just totally awesome. I no longer have to look for DVD's that are either behind the TV or in my 6 year old kid's closet somewhere.

That I agree with.

[mike1961]

First off - I completely disagree. It looks fine on my 1024x768 computer 19" monitor and also on my 27" TV and I know others who say it looks fine on their big screen TV's. Time is of no issue to me because it is done one time only and you can still use your computer because it defaults to "low priority" anyway. One computer can easily encode 2 DVD's every day. So, 2 computers will do 4 a day and in a week you have 28 DVDs. It's very easy to use once you get the hang of it.

As far as loss of quaility goes - the trick is to start out with the BEST mpeg 2 file to start. So, when I record from Sage to mpeg 2 some look great and others so/so (in Sage). You can set the mpeg4 bitrate and DVD's already come in very good quality (720x480, not quite HD) but the mpeg 4 file looks just like the original DVD to me...no difference at all. All you have to do is tell recode to encode a 1 minute of the DVD at different bitrates and find out what satisfies you. For me, I encode at about 500 kbps and it looks just like the original DVD. I'm doing it so I know. I'd love to upload a 15 sec sample but it may be a copyright issue. Anyway, all you have to do is try it or just download an mpeg and see. AVC is much better than divx or xvid.

Mike

[mike1961]

Yea - I should add, if your original mpeg2 file looks like crap then of course the compressed mpeg4 will look worse and it will be harder to encode as well. But, a nice "clean" mpeg2 or dvd is going to look just as good if you don't compress it down too far. All you have to do is experiment and see what works for you. My DVD's compress to around 240 mb/hour (4 mb/min) and I currently have Sage recordings compressed to about 5 mb/min because my original Sage quality is still not what I would like but that has nothing to do with the mpeg 4. I think I need to adjust some satellite settings in the STB. It's wierd because sometimes the video just goes out for like a min and I think I have to contact directv to find out what is causing that.

Jim - I should add, I'm assuming that on your DLP if you watch standard (non-HD) TV then that does not even look so good (to many people who have grown to like HD). Since nothing that I know of records in HD quality yet, there will be an immediate loss of quality in the mpeg 2 mode. Also, DVD's are lower quality than HD but higher than standard TV. My point is that the quality of a DVD converted to mpeg 4 will be very comparable to the original DVD along with the benefit of not having to look for the DVD or wait for it to start playing and the convenience of having instant access along with convenient backups. In fact, some of the latest DVD's really make me mad when every time you put the DVD in you have to sit there and listen to a "commericial" and you can't fast forward out of it. Once it is converted, that is no longer an issue.


Mike

Originally Posted by jimbruskalski

The mp4, you say there is no loss in quality really. What if these were to be viewed on a 50" DLP HDTV set? I know they are not HD quality, but I dont want it to look like crap bc the resolution is so high on it. I just want to make sure the inability to notice a loss of quality is not due to the fact that it is being viewed at such a low resolution. I dont know much about video formats. Please enlighten me. Thanks.

Andrew

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mike1961

First off - I completely disagree. It looks fine on my 1024x768 computer 19" monitor and also on my 27" TV and I know others who say it looks fine on their big screen TV's.

No offense, but a 19" monitor or a 27" TV (is it HD?) is a completely different ballgame than a 50 HD TV, or especially an FP setup at < 2x seating distance.

Time is of no issue to me because it is done one time only and you can still use your computer because it defaults to "low priority" anyway. One computer can easily encode 2 DVD's every day.

Without recoding you can do that many DVDs in about an hour on one PC.

So, 2 computers will do 4 a day and in a week you have 28 DVDs. It's very easy to use once you get the hang of it.

Granted Nero Recode is very simple, but you lose AC3 audio with it.

As far as loss of quaility goes - the trick is to start out with the BEST mpeg 2 file to start.

Note that I only referred to DVDs, recordings are a different story (as they are less than perfect to begin with).

So, when I record from Sage to mpeg 2 some look great and others so/so (in Sage). You can set the mpeg4 bitrate and DVD's already come in very good quality (720x480, not quite HD) but the mpeg 4 file looks just like the original DVD to me...no difference at all.

No offense, but I would not expect a difference on a small screen.

All you have to do is tell recode to encode a 1 minute of the DVD at different bitrates and find out what satisfies you. For me, I encode at about 500 kbps and it looks just like the original DVD. I'm doing it so I know.

That's fine, for me though, even if the PQ is essentially equal, the lack of AC3 audio (Recode would convert to AAC, then I'd have to convert it back to AC3 for my AVM20 to decode it), lack of SageTV playback, and the amount of time it would take me to convert my (already ripped) 300 DVDs are absolute deal killers.

The simple fact of the matter is that piling a lossy compression on top of a lossy compression, is a lossy operation, it can't match the source (DVD). I rip all my music into WMA Lossless, that way I don't have to re-rip it later if I decide I want to use a different codec, or if I get better equipment and can tell a difference (bad example as I can tell a difference now).

Similarly, I see no reason to recompress DVDs when there is a quality loss, regardless of how small, because I will upgrade my display device, and the last thing I want is to have to re-rip everything when/if I find out my compression choices didn't cut it.

Note that this is nothing against AVC (I advocate AVC/VC-1 for use on HD-DVD and Blu-ray due to their superiority over MPEG-2). But I'll never advocate recompressing a lossy compressed source with a lossy codec. Especially not when HDD space is cheap.

You can (or will soon) be able to get 750GB drives for about $500. That will hold about 150 DVDs, movie only with no recompression.

I'd love to upload a 15 sec sample but it may be a copyright issue. Anyway, all you have to do is try it or just download an mpeg and see. AVC is much better than divx or xvid.

I'm converting chapter 3 of SW ROTS right now with Recode to 500kbps. I may try 1, or 2 Mbps also, and play with it on my PJ later.

[stanger89]

Well, after something like an hour of encoding (on an Athlon 64 X2 no less), I had chapter 3 or ROTS encoded to 499.6kbps AVC ala Nero Recode. I compared it (rather quickly) to the original DVD (ripped to my server) on my FP setup consisting of:
Reasonably well calibrated Toshiba TDP-MT700 (HD2+) 720p DLP
Panamorph P752 Anamorphic lens
96" wide 2.35:1 screen (104" diagonal)
Seating distance of about 14'

The good news:
I'll give them credit, they do a lot with a little, looks very good for ~1/16th the bitrate. On a smaller display, or more accurately, at farther seating distances (2.5 widths or more) it would probably be harder to tell. Especially on an SDTV it would definitly look just fine.

The bad news:
Asside from taking an hour for about 5-10 minutes of video...
No AC3 audio (and I couldn't get transcoding to work in ffdshow), 2 ch audio (via SPDIF) pales to true 6.1 THX-EX surround.
Macroblocking was readilly apparent at that bitrate.
It appeared (though subtle) that the AVC image was slightly softer than the original DVD image.

[Polypro]

As another option for you, I rip the main movie only and then use Google Images to grab the cover art. Easy-peezy.

P

[mike1961]

As I've been saying all along, I can't tell the difference with DVD's converted even at 250/mb hour(re: the video) which is a bitrate of about 500. Regarding the audio, first let me say that unless it is some rock concert or music, I really don't care. I don't need to hear a movie in the latest greatest audio. But, please enlighten me because I don't even know what AC3 is or means? Why is it so important to have? I suppose every audio bit is important for music and concerts but for all other movies what is (if any) the importance of AC3?

Also - if you play with Recode there may be some advanced settings for the audio (I think there are) but again - I'm not a music buff and if I want music, I'll just listen to my mp3's or go to the music channels in the guide. What is Macroblocking? Also - if you felt the image was "slightly softer" you could always try increasing the bitrate to your satisfaction. For me, I can't tell the difference at a bitrate of 500 but for Sage videos I tend to go higher depending on the orig quality of the video.

On another note - have you noticed that with some DVD's you have to turn the volume way up just to hear the movie? I'd like to find a feature when converting to mp4 to boost the volume.

Thanks,
Mike

Originally Posted by stanger89

The good news:
I'll give them credit, they do a lot with a little, looks very good for ~1/16th the bitrate. On a smaller display, or more accurately, at farther seating distances (2.5 widths or more) it would probably be harder to tell. Especially on an SDTV it would definitly look just fine.

The bad news:
Asside from taking an hour for about 5-10 minutes of video...
No AC3 audio (and I couldn't get transcoding to work in ffdshow), 2 ch audio (via SPDIF) pales to true 6.1 THX-EX surround.
Macroblocking was readilly apparent at that bitrate.
It appeared (though subtle) that the AVC image was slightly softer than the original DVD image.

[jchiso]

As others have mentioned, this is pretty straightforward with Sage. I also use DVDShrink to rip to a networked drive. I only select the Main feature (no menus or extras) and the audio tracks I want; usually just AC-3 and DTS, where available. Sage only needs a "VIDEO_TS" subdirectory for each DVD. I also insert a cover image as "folder.jpg" into this subdirectory. A typical DVD uses 4.5GB of storage in this manner.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mike1961

But, please enlighten me because I don't even know what AC3 is or means?

AC3 is the "technical" name for Dolby Digital audio. What I mean by lack of AC3 is that Nero Recode converts the 5.1 Dolby Digital (AC3) soundtrack into 5.1 AAC audio.

Why is it so important to have?

Because essentially no surround sound processors can decode AAC audio, because you can't send 5.1ch AAC audio over S/PDIF to let a reciever/processor decode it. The only options are to:
1) connect 6 analog cables and run the discrete audio to the multichannel input of your processor, thus (most of the time) loosing bass managment.
2) run the decoded AAC through an AC3 encoder but then why convert to AAC in the first place? (I couldn't get the AC3 encoder in ffdshow to work).
3) downmix the 5.1ch audio to stereo and leave it to the processor to expand it with Dolby ProLogic II(x) or similar.

I suppose every audio bit is important for music and concerts but for all other movies what is (if any) the importance of AC3?

Loss of discrete multichannel audio is a big deal to me. Recode results in me going from 5.1 to 2.0 basically, on my 5.1 HT setup.

Also - if you play with Recode there may be some advanced settings for the audio (I think there are) but again - I'm not a music buff and if I want music, I'll just listen to my mp3's or go to the music channels in the guide.

Unless I'm missing something big, you can tweak the AAC settings in Recode (2ch, 5.1ch, bitrate, whether it's HE or not), but there's no option to retain the original AC3 bitstream (there's no gain/reduction in filesize by going to AAC anyway really).

[mike1961]

I guess I'm still a little confused about the dolby issue. Are you saying that you won't be able to hear the sound at all (because of your setup) or are you saying that the sound won't be a high quality dolby which is high on your preference list? For me, if I'm just watching a movie where people are talking to each other (and it's not some rock concert) why do I care if it's in dolby? Not to sound flippant, but I don't have a 100" theater screen with 6 speakers in some media room in my house. I'm looking to upgrade to a 50" TV (possibly plasma but not sure year) and even then I may just may use stereo speakers hooked to the computer or just use the speakers on the TV but still with 2 speakers hooked to a TV unless you are listening to music on the DVD who cares about dolby sound?

So again, I'm just a little confused as to why sound is so very important if you are just listening to people talking to each other when watching a DVD.

Thanks,
Mike

[stanger89]

If you don't have a 5.1 or "better" (meaning more, ie 6.1 or 7.1) then loss of 5.1 wouldn't matter to you. If you do, it would probably be a big deal then.

FWIW, I'm not/wasn't trying to say your way was/is wrong, just that it's not the only way, and not without it's sacrifices.