Switching to UNC Paths

[NEOSG]

I use UNC paths and I reference them by the static IP assigned to the sage server. So, rather than referencing storage for recordings and imported media by \\servername\sharename , I use\\serverip\sharename

This require no DNS lookup.

What would be the advatage to using \\servername\sharename vs \\serverip\sharename ? (other than having to change things if the internal network changes. But how often does that happen)

[ToxMox]

Originally Posted by NEOSG

I use UNC paths and I reference them by the static IP assigned to the sage server. So, rather than referencing storage for recordings and imported media by \\servername\sharename , I use\\serverip\sharename

This require no DNS lookup.

What would be the advatage to using \\servername\sharename vs \\serverip\sharename ? (other than having to change things if the internal network changes. But how often does that happen)

I would think that since this works that making an entry in the server's hosts file for itself would work too.

[nyplayer]

NEOSG ,

I tested your way and it does not work either. If I disconnect from the router while recording it will fail and it will say 0 space availible. Simply put if all you use is UNC paths and you lose your router your recordings will fail.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by nyplayer

NEOSG ,

I tested your way and it does not work either. If I disconnect from the router while recording it will fail and it will say 0 space availible. Simply put if all you use is UNC paths and you lose your router your recordings will fail.

Thank you. I haven't had the chance to test this idea out yet. It sounded like a possiblity but I guess not. Guess I'll stick with my method.

BobP.

[NEOSG]

Originally Posted by nyplayer

NEOSG ,

I tested your way and it does not work either. If I disconnect from the router while recording it will fail and it will say 0 space availible. Simply put if all you use is UNC paths and you lose your router your recordings will fail.

Thank you for the feedback. Is your sagetv server directly connected to your router?

I ask, becasue if it goes to a switch first, I am wondering if the issue is one of 2 things. Is it the nic on the sage server losing it's conectivity that casues the sage server to stop recording, or is it that if the sage servers gateway connection is unreachable, then the recording stops.

[nyplayer]

it's not a problem with Sagetv... It is just the way networks work period. If you are going to use UNC paths for recording only and not local paths ... Then you must be aware that you also have introduced another point of failure.

Your HTPC is now dependent on a router to record... If the router fails your HTPC is more or less useless. Whereby using just local paths even if you lose the router it will not affect your scheduled recordings or recordings in progress.

Using UNC paths points of failure below.
1. Router failure
2. HTPC failure

Using Local Paths points of failure below.
1. HTPC failure.

Even a network Hiccup could cause a corrupted file.

So weighing the above I am now using local paths exclusively on my server.

[NEOSG]

Originally Posted by nyplayer

it's not a problem with Sagetv... It is just the way networks work period. If you are going to use UNC paths for recording only and not local paths ... Then you must be aware that you also have introduced another point of failure.

Your HTPC is now dependent on a router to record... If the router fails your HTPC is more or less useless. Whereby using just local paths even if you lose the router it will not affect your scheduled recordings or recordings in progress.

Using UNC paths points of failure below.
1. Router failure
2. HTPC failure

Using Local Paths points of failure below.
1. HTPC failure.

Even a network Hiccup could cause a corrupted file.

So weighing the above I am now using local paths exclusively on my server.

OK, maybe I am missing something, but lets look at the following hypothetical scenerio.

SageTV server ip 192.168.0.5
Recording path for encoder on same server is \\192.168.0.5\sharename
SageTV server 192.168.0.5 is connected to an unmanaged switch which is then connected to a router with the ip of 192.168.0.1. This router is the sageTV servers primary gateway

The router with the IP of 192.168.0.1 gets fried. But, since the SageTV server is connected to a switch, its NIC is still up.

I see no reason why sagetv should stop recording just because the server cannot reach the gateway/router due to it being down.

So, am I missing something in the above scenerio that would explain why the sageTV server would stop recording just bacause it would not reach it's gateway?

p.s Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see where your coming from.

[ToxMox]

There is a workaround that I believe will work. I don't have UNC paths setup in Sage but I tested this by browsing a local UNC path in Windows Explorer with my network cable unplugged and it worked after I did this.

These instructions are for XP Pro SP2 other versions of windows may vary slightly but same principles apply.
Go to Control Panel-> Add New Hardware
Click Next to continue (it will search for hardware not yet installed)
Choose Yes I have already connected the hardware and click Next
Scroll all the way to the bottom of the list and choose Add a new hardware device and click Next
Choose Install the hardware that I manually select from a list (Advanced)
Choose Network adapters and click next
Choose Microsoft on the left and select Microsoft Loopback Adapter and click next
Click Next again
Click Finish
Now go to your Network connections and find the Local Area Connection associated with the Microsoft Loopback adapter and edit the TCP/IP properties.
Change it to assign IP manually and give it a bogus private IP that isn't on your network ie (192.168.99.0) and let it choose default subnet and apply those changes etc. and now using local UNC paths should work even when network fails or is unplugged.
I'd like to know the results if someone can actually test this with Sage.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by ToxMox

There is a workaround that I believe will work. I don't have UNC paths setup in Sage but I tested this by browsing a local UNC path in Windows Explorer with my network cable unplugged and it worked after I did this.

These instructions are for XP Pro SP2 other versions of windows may vary slightly but same principles apply.
Go to Control Panel-> Add New Hardware
Click Next to continue (it will search for hardware not yet installed)
Choose Yes I have already connected the hardware and click Next
Scroll all the way to the bottom of the list and choose Add a new hardware device and click Next
Choose Install the hardware that I manually select from a list (Advanced)
Choose Network adapters and click next
Choose Microsoft on the left and select Microsoft Loopback Adapter and click next
Click Next again
Click Finish
Now go to your Network connections and find the Local Area Connection associated with the Microsoft Loopback adapter and edit the TCP/IP properties.
Change it to assign IP manually and give it a bogus private IP that isn't on your network ie (192.168.99.0) and let it choose default subnet and apply those changes etc. and now using local UNC paths should work even when network fails or is unplugged.
I'd like to know the results if someone can actually test this with Sage.

Ding Ding Ding - we have a winner. I set this up and from the Server in question I cannot browse any other computer on the network but it is still recording. When I plug the cable back in the browsing capability as well as remote desktop comes back. I get my boot drive back now.

Thank you. I was hoping somebody would know how to set this up. Now to setup my second server this way too. This info needs a Sticky.
BobP.

Edit: in case your wondering. I disconnect the network cable from the back of the SageTV Server for this testing so I know it was not connected to anything on the network and I deleted my local directory from Sage and off the drive.

[nyplayer]

Yesss. It works great Thanks ToxMox for the workaround.

And thanks to everyone that contributed to this discussion and for the various testing.

[nyplayer]

NEOSG,

I have my server wired to a Linksys 4 port and wireless router. I do not have a switch in between... So if the Router fails and I am using UNC paths it wont record.... but now with the Loop Back workaround all is ok now.

[NEOSG]

Originally Posted by nyplayer

NEOSG,

I have my server wired to a Linksys 4 port and wireless router. I do not have a switch in between... So if the Router fails and I am using UNC paths it wont record.... but now with the Loop Back workaround all is ok now.

NYPlayer,

thanks for letting me know. That explains everything. I was thinking in terms of having a switch in between your pc and the router. Thus, when the router goes down, since the switch may still be up, the sage nic stays up. I frogot that in many cases, people only have the single router with the built-in switch.

Regardless, I'm glad you found a workaround that keeps you rolling!

[blade]

About the work around....for comskip to work I've always heard that the client must be able to access the .txt file at the same location the server does. Using UNC paths or mapped drives this isn't a problem. Does it still work when using the loopback adapter?

[ToxMox]

Adding the loopback adapter doesn't have any effect on the networking of the server. All it does it keep the networking services on the machine running even when the cable is unplugged on the real network adapter because it still thinks it is connected to a network via the loopback adapter so it keeps the UNC up and running locally.
Everything will be fine with the loopback added to the system.

[blade]

Thanks for the explanation.

[mayamaniac]

wow, I haven't checked this thread for a while and now its gotten quite interesting. I know the MS loopback driver was meant to emulate a NIC even when your system doesn't have a physical one. So kudos to ToxMox for coming up with the idea to use it to correct UNC paths failures in SageTV. I will have to try it now. If it works, I'll message opus4 and maybe have him add this info to the UNC path of SageTV FAQ.

[mayamaniac]

Just to update on the loopback driver trick, I found a problem after restarting SageTV service, my MVP Extender stopped connecting to the server.

This is whats happening, when I set the bogus loopback IP to 192.168.99.100, and I launched SageTV Client on the same machine as the server, and went into SageTV System Information screen, where it says IP Address, I noticed that it changed to 192.168.99.100 also, which is the bogus IP. When I disable the Loopback driver, then System Information shows the correct real LAN IP of the Server. The problem is the MVP extender would fail to connect if the server IP is using the bogus one. I have to disable the loop driver in order for MVP to connect. But once the MVP is connected, then its fine to enable the loopback driver.

So my question now is if you have two NICs with different IPs, in this case a LAN IP and a bogus loopback IP, in what order is SageTV picking the IP to use? And why is it for me that it keeps picking the bogus IP over the Lan one? At this point, I'm disabling the loopback driver as I can't imagine any reason for my router to fail besides a power outage, which would kill my sagetv server also anyway.

[pjwerdna]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

So my question now is if you have two NICs with different IPs, in this case a LAN IP and a bogus loopback IP, in what order is SageTV picking the IP to use?

It's probably picking the first ip address it finds on the machine.

You could try changing the order of the connections. On the network connections screen, goto the Advanced Menu and select Advaned Settings.
Try changing the order to..
1 Local Area Connection
2 Loop Back Adapter

Dont have an MVP to try myself.

Edit: cos I got the wrong order!

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by pjwerdna

It's probably picking the first ip address it finds on the machine.

You could try changing the order of the connections. On the network connections screen, goto the Advanced Menu and select Advaned Settings.
Try changing the order to..
1 Local Area Connection
2 Loop Back Adapter

Dont have an MVP to try myself.

Edit: cos I got the wrong order!

This will probably work. It needs a reboot to take effect, and I can't reboot at the moment, but will do so later. Thanks for the tip.

[pjwerdna]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

I'm disabling the loopback driver as I can't imagine any reason for my router to fail besides a power outage, which would kill my sagetv server also anyway.

There is a good reason to have the loop back driver actually...

If you have a UPS and are using UNC paths, then with the loopback driver the machine can shutdown sage and the OS properly and avoid getting corrupted mpegs that cause sage to lockup when the power comes back.