New 7600GT - nasty issues ensue

[pgman]

I just installed this card and I have worse problems now than I did with my old ATi X600. I completely (I believe) un-installed the ATi drivers before powering down and swapping the cards. Upon power-up, I allowed Windows to fail to find drivers for the new hardware, then I ran the setup for the nVidia drivers (that I got from their website). I also (I think) loaded the correct PureVideo decoder (after the driver was installed).

Here is what I have now:

I am using the ForceWare Beta driver from nVidia and I have selected "Nvidia post processor" for my video decoder. I am running "Overlay" for my renderer (because VMR9 doesn't work - see below).

My picture (on HD) seems VERY noisy and, though much of the color-banding (I think that is the correct term) is now gone, I still occasionally see hints of it in some scenes (dark ones, especially). SD television still looks kinda crappy, but I am not expecting miracles here. I have read on the AVS Forums that my television is known to have some slight color-banding issues, so the tiny amount I see now may be the display and not the source.

Even when I think I have the settings right, and the picture looks pretty good, I get this wierd line rolling up across the frame every so often. This seems to be random and it looks almost like a noise bar, not so much a glitch, tear or dropped frame. If it could be put into words, it looks like the "overlay" has a wrinkle in it and that it is being pulled up across the screen area.

I can not use VMR9 in the Sage setup menus - the picture, while it looks better in this mode, stutters and skips badly. This happens in FSE as well as non-FSE.

Despite the fact that my television (a Samsung HL-S5687W DLP) is native 1080, and Samsung recommends 1920x1080 resolution on the PC input (whcih is what I am currently using), I can NOT get that resolution to work correctly. No matter what I do, the image I see on the television will not fill the screen and is right in the center. There is nothing I can do to spread it out to fill the screen. I have Powerstrip installed, but it doesn't seem to help.



I know I must seem extremely stupid. In fact, I am rather ignorant of this world of HTPC. I am thinking that I just may not get the OS (and all installed apps) to work fully with the new video card until I completely re-load the OS (which I am prepared to do, if necessary).

I have tried every setting I can find - mostly just guessing because I am not very good at this. I tried all the de-interlacing modes, Overlay, VRM7, VMR9, hardware box checked and un-checked. I just can't get this thing to look right.

I believe that it may be worth trying the component output on my 7600GT (instead of the RGBHV [PC]) input or the DVI. I do not believe my wiring between the PC and TV is bad, but it is about a 25-foot run and I wonder if some of the noise I see is because of this.

If I could get anyone here to comment on any of this, it might at least give me some new direction. When I first built this PC, I had a similar problem because I had been trying so many HTPC front-ends (and had them all installed simultaneously). When I finally decided to go with SageTV, I re-loaded the system and then put JUST SageTV and a few other specific applications I had chosen (such as PowerDVD, Winamp, etc.). After that, it seemed much better. In fact, I used SageTV (for SD viewing) without incident for almost a whole year before I began my foray into HD.

[Mark SS]

Originally Posted by pgman

I am using the ForceWare Beta driver from nVidia and I have selected "Nvidia post processor" for my video decoder. I am running "Overlay" for my renderer (because VMR9 doesn't work - see below).

I only tested briefly but the beta version seemed to be a worse picture for me than the current (91.47?) release.

Best way to configure Sage/Purevideo is to download a copy of DECCheck (google it), configure Nvidia codec as preferred, then set SageTV to use Default.

VMR9 should work unless you have a particularly slow PC. Smart/Pixel Adaptive de-interlacing seem to give the best results for most people.

I believe that it may be worth trying the component output on my 7600GT (instead of the RGBHV [PC]) input or the DVI. I do not believe my wiring between the PC and TV is bad, but it is about a 25-foot run and I wonder if some of the noise I see is because of this.

25ft might be pushing it a bit. Have you tried temporarily moving the PC next to the TV and using a standard cable?

You shouldn't require Powerstrip as the later Nvidia drivers should cover most scenarios. What options are you given in the Nvidia Control Panel for resolutions and which are you selecting?

[blade]

Originally Posted by pgman

I am using the ForceWare Beta driver from nVidia and I have selected "Nvidia post processor" for my video decoder.

That is software mode, you should be running Nvidia Decoder instead of the one that says Post Processing.

I can not use VMR9 in the Sage setup menus - the picture, while it looks better in this mode, stutters and skips badly. This happens in FSE as well as non-FSE.

That's probably because you're trying to do everything in software instead of using hardware acceleration.

I have tried every setting I can find - mostly just guessing because I am not very good at this. I tried all the de-interlacing modes, Overlay, VRM7, VMR9, hardware box checked and un-checked. I just can't get this thing to look right.

Try selecting VMR9 as the renderer, Nvidia Decoder, and leave everything else at default. Also be sure hardware acceleration and FSE are enabled. You may have to exit and restart Sage before FSE kicks in.

I believe that it may be worth trying the component output on my 7600GT (instead of the RGBHV [PC]) input or the DVI.

I've seen others with the problem you're having where the picture doesn't fill the screen, but I've never really paid much attention to the details. If you do a search you might be able to find some answers. It would probably be worth trying component because it wouldn't suprise me if it wasn't a limitation of the connection. BTW you shouldn't need powerstrip with Nvidia cards.

I do not believe my wiring between the PC and TV is bad, but it is about a 25-foot run and I wonder if some of the noise I see is because of this.

The rolling band sounds like interference to me. The long run might very well be to blame for some of the problems.

[blade]

Originally Posted by Mark SS

Best way to configure Sage/Purevideo is to download a copy of DECCheck (google it), configure Nvidia codec as preferred, then set SageTV to use Default.

I totally disagree. Why use default, which will change if and when another decoder is installed on the PC when you can select the decoder by name and know what is being used.

VMR9 should work unless you have a particularly slow PC. Smart/Pixel Adaptive de-interlacing seem to give the best results for most people.

It is not about having a slow PC. The problem is whether or not the video card can handle VMR9 and the 7600gt can. For example I have a 6600gt with an underclocked Athlon XP running at 1100mhz that does VMR9 and an Athlon 64 3000 overclocked to the equivalent of a 4200 with a Nvidia 6200 that chokes on VMR9.

I agree with adaptive de-interlacing being the best choice.

[Mark SS]

Originally Posted by blade

I totally disagree. Why use default, which will change if and when another decoder is installed on the PC when you can select the decoder by name and know what is being used.

Because for some Sage users selecting the Nvidia decoder by name stops the Purevideo control panel from appearing during playback. Setting default using DECCheck and Default in Sage appears to resolve this issue for everyone.

It is not about having a slow PC. The problem is whether or not the video card can handle VMR9 and the 7600gt can.

Saw Nvidia mentioned, didn't see the card specified hence 'slow pc' comment.

[blade]

Originally Posted by Mark SS

Because for some Sage users selecting the Nvidia decoder by name stops the Purevideo control panel from appearing during playback. Setting default using DECCheck and Default in Sage appears to resolve this issue for everyone.

The problem happens for most if not all users, but it doesn't mean the decoder isn't being used nor does it mean selecting default is the best way to configure Sage. There is no performance advantage and there is the chance the decoder will be changed without the users knowledge in the future. Not having the tray icon is irrelevant once everything is configured, which IMO is better than the possibility of the default decoder being changed at some point. Also you can simply playback a video in WMP to adjust the tray icon settings without having to select default in Sage.

Either way that is more personal preference than anything else. The important thing is pgman now knows about the bug that hides the tray icon when selecting the decoder by name, how to make it show up, and what might happen if you leave it on default.

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by blade

I totally disagree. Why use default, which will change if and when another decoder is installed on the PC when you can select the decoder by name and know what is being used.

Also the nvidia decoder doesn't handle wide a variety of other media types. Setting it as the default decoder in DECCheck and selecting default in Sage means that the pure video decoder should be tried first. Then on to something else..

In my experience if you explicitly select the nvidia decoder, it won't let me play avi files etc.

[blade]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

Also the nvidia decoder doesn't handle wide a variety of other media types. Setting it as the default decoder in DECCheck and selecting default in Sage means that the pure video decoder should be tried first. Then on to something else..

In my experience if you explicitly select the nvidia decoder, it won't let me play avi files etc.

The Nvidia decoder doesn't handle any file types other than mpeg2. If windows or Sage is trying to use it for other file types you have a problem somewhere.

I have 3 machines running the Nvidia Decoder chosen by name and it is the default mpeg2 decoder in windows. All of them play avi and other files types without issue. Unless I'm mistaken where you select the decoder in Sage it is for mpeg2 only not for every file type you attempt to play.

[pgman]

Thank you all so much for the dialogue. I must admit that I am now a little more confused, but please don't give up on me.

Soooo, how do I know what modes are hardware vs software? I thought that the GPU was doing most of the work becuase my CPU load, when playing video, is only showing sometihing like 19%, whcih occasional spikes up to around 40. I can't seem to locate a setting for "hardware acceleration" like the one in PowerDVD (which I sometimes use). I remember the Sage tech support people teling me that Sage is not set up to off-load processing to the GPU, though.

I need to do a LOT of reading, I know. Is there a primer somewhere on this board that explains how this stuff works and what the different settings mean?

[blade]

The decoder that comes with Sage is software and doesn't use hardware acceleration.

If you select the Nvidia Video Decoder it uses hardware acceleration. Selecing Nvidia Video Post Processor uses software mode.

If you open the Nvidia tray icon there is a checkbox for hardware acceleration. That will need to be checked. Also in Sage on the advanced section in detailed setup there is 3d acceleration, that needs to be enabled. You may also need to enable full screen exclusive to get smooth playback, which is right below the 3d acceleration setting.

[pgman]

THANK YOU again!!

Last night, I sat down and jumped into it. I think it is fixed. I un-installed the beta driver from nVidia and went back to the latest "release" from their website. Then I went into Sage and set everything up as advised. Then I had smooth HD playback with good color.

I also discovered some other things that still confuse me, but I am going to approach those as seperate issues. Basically, I still can't get 1290 x 1080 to work right, if I select any resolution other than 1360 x 768, I get this rolling line across the screen every so often (again, it appears to be something to do with the overlay, as it is not a hard glitch or a tear). Finally, I think my motherboard may need a BIOS update because, when I reboot, I sometimes get a POST error (one beep then two quick ones). I am not sure what this indicates because my motherboard manual does not have a listing of these audible failure indications (go figure). Anyway, I think I have things in okay shape at this point.

[corykim]

Originally Posted by pgman

THANK YOU again!!

I also discovered some other things that still confuse me, but I am going to approach those as seperate issues. Basically, I still can't get 1290 x 1080 to work right, if I select any resolution other than 1360 x 768, I get this rolling line across the screen every so often (again, it appears to be something to do with the overlay, as it is not a hard glitch or a tear).

Seriously, try a shorter and/or better cable. Do you get this line when viewing the desktop, or only when viewing video? Are you using PowerStrip? Uninstall that. Also, try switching between 59Hz and 60Hz. My 7600GT output displays very differently depending on whether it's 59 or 60.

[Keenan]

Originally Posted by blade

You may also need to enable full screen exclusive to get smooth playback, which is right below the 3d acceleration setting.

I also seem to have some stuttering problems. Is there any disadvantage to using full-screen-exclusive? My Sage PC is being used exclusively for Sage.

Using a Athlon 3800 and a 7600GT so I don't think there's a lack of hardware power.

[corykim]

Originally Posted by Keenan

I also seem to have some stuttering problems. Is there any disadvantage to using full-screen-exclusive? My Sage PC is being used exclusively for Sage.

Using a Athlon 3800 and a 7600GT so I don't think there's a lack of hardware power.

You really should try each combination of VMR/Overlay and FSE on/off. In my case (Asus EN7600GT, driver 93.71) I get the best results with VMR and FSE on. Unfortunately, this combination breaks functionality in other applications as long as SageTV is running, but it's something I have to live with.

[Keenan]

Originally Posted by corykim

You really should try each combination of VMR/Overlay and FSE on/off. In my case (Asus EN7600GT, driver 93.71) I get the best results with VMR and FSE on. Unfortunately, this combination breaks functionality in other applications as long as SageTV is running, but it's something I have to live with.

That's what I was curious about, what functions does it "break"? I'm primarily concerned with good quality TV video, live and recorded playback, so if something else doesn't work, or is disabled I can deal with that, depending on what it is.

Nevermind, I see what you mean, it breaks functionality of other Windows applications. Being that Sage is the primary/only function for my PC, that doesn't bother me. As long as it doesn't affect Windows apps that Sage needs to use to function properly.

[corykim]

Originally Posted by Keenan

That's what I was curious about, what functions does it "break"? I'm primarily concerned with good quality TV video, live and recorded playback, so if something else doesn't work, or is disabled I can deal with that, depending on what it is.

Nevermind, I see what you mean, it breaks functionality of other Windows applications. Being that Sage is the primary/only function for my PC, that doesn't bother me. As long as it doesn't affect Windows apps that Sage needs to use to function properly.

Right, it seems to break functionality in other Windows applications that are unrelated to Sage. For example, sometimes I have trouble with WMP when Sage is running and in FSE, even if it is in sleep mode. Further, the nVidia PureVideo decoder control applet does not appear when FSE is enabled.

Finally, and ominously, the Cyberlink BD/HD-DVD advisor indicates that HDCP is not possible, whenever SageTV has FSE enabled, even if minimized. This is going to be a problem in the future, since SageTV most likely won't support BD/HD-DVD playback.

[Keenan]

Originally Posted by corykim

Right, it seems to break functionality in other Windows applications that are unrelated to Sage. For example, sometimes I have trouble with WMP when Sage is running and in FSE, even if it is in sleep mode. Further, the nVidia PureVideo decoder control applet does not appear when FSE is enabled.

Finally, and ominously, the Cyberlink BD/HD-DVD advisor indicates that HDCP is not possible, whenever SageTV has FSE enabled, even if minimized. This is going to be a problem in the future, since SageTV most likely won't support BD/HD-DVD playback.

When you say the nVidia PureVideo decoder applet does not appear it doesn't mean it's not working right?

[blade]

Originally Posted by Keenan

When you say the nVidia PureVideo decoder applet does not appear it doesn't mean it's not working right?

I don't really know what corykim is talking about. I run all of my clients with FSE enabled with the Nvidia decoder and it has never caused my tray icon not to appear. As has been stated earlier in this thread selecting the Nvidia decoder by name instead of through default can cause it not to appear, but I've never heard of enabling FSE making it disappear. Anything can happen I guess.

Also just because it doesn't appear doesn't mean it isn't being used. As discussed previously there is a known bug where it doesn't show up when selecting the decoder by name.

[Keenan]

Originally Posted by blade

I don't really know what corykim is talking about. I run all of my clients with FSE enabled with the Nvidia decoder and it has never caused my tray icon not to appear. As has been stated earlier in this thread selecting the Nvidia decoder by name instead of through default can cause it not to appear, but I've never heard of enabling FSE making it disappear. Anything can happen I guess.

Also just because it doesn't appear doesn't mean it isn't being used. As discussed previously there is a known bug where it doesn't show up when selecting the decoder by name.

That's sort of what I figured, it's still operating, you just didn't get access to the control applet--which is fine with me, once it's set up and working properly, I don't need to see, or use it anyways.

Thanks all for the suggestions, I'll be giving them a try as this is really my biggest bugaboo with Sage.

I should mention that I'm using a R5000 modified Star Choice STB with Sage, but I don't believe that has anything to do with the stuttering issues.

[pgman]

Well, here is the latest. The rolling band I described earlier is definitely related to the driver / display settings because it never has occurred when using the windows desktop or other apps that use video (like WMP visualizations - even full screen ones). If I use 1360 x 720 at 60Hz, the band never appears, so that seems to be the short term fix. Eventually, I am going to tackle the 1920 x 1080 issue, but for now it is not a priority.

Mostly due to corykim's persistence, I did upgrade the cable between my CPU and the HD15 wall jack (where the RGBHV signal goes into the house wiring and, ultimately, to an identical HD15 jack right behind the television). A 3-foot jumper goes at each end to make the connections. Long story short - the jumper between the CPU and the "input" side of the house wiring was old. I put a new one in and the image quality did improve quite a lot. This has convinced me that I probably need to upgrade ALL the house wiring (not as hard as it sounds) to get the full potential. Really, though, the video quality is quite stunning at this point, it just isn't smooth enough. Maybe I am expecting too much, but I bet if I hooked the antenna lead directly to the television the picture would be perfectly smooth. Also, I should mention that I un-installed PowerStrip.

In another thread I did pose the question if (and when) I do the wiring upgrade, I should pull HDMI or just better analog wiring. In either case, I sure would like to figure out this performance issue first. I know I have enough system horsepower to make this run smoothly, but something seems to be bogging it down. I am not running any anti-virus software and I have my DVR drive formatted the way Sage recommends (I forget the cluster size but I did follow their recommendation). As I said earlier, I am wondering if I should try to update my motherboard's BIOS. I bought that motherboard very soon after it was released and I know there is an update for it. I am just a little leary of such a drastic measure. Could system RAM be causing this? I have 1GB, and it is dual-channel (so it should be fast enough), but it was "budget" memory - not a well-known brand name. I don't ever get errors in any other functions, but I am wondering.

Anyway, when I use VMR9, I still get dropped frames occasionally (not nearly as bad as when I was using the nVidia beta driver) and I am noticing what I believe to be a de-interlacing problem as well. Anytime a farily static frame is displayed, the PQ is excellent. If there is ANY movement, or even a change in that static frame (the blinking lights on top of police cars are a good example), I can see individual horizontal lines through the picture element that is not static. As soon as the motion goes away, the resolution in the affected areas comes right back within milliseconds. This is almost imperceptible and, in fact, it took me quite a while to even realize what I was seeing. Of course, it only seems to affect program material from 1080i and DVD sources. It is very obvious when watching NASCAR (which I have done quite a lot of as my "acid test" these past two weeks) because of all the extremely fast horizontal motion.