Video Stutter with v6

[cummings66]

I might have come down a bit hard on George, he wanted me to go back and run Ver 5 and send him a log file where I had no stutter, then come back and install Ver 6.1 and send him a log file where it did stutter.

It honestly struck me that he does not believe it's a software issue, he thinks it's my machine and I'm sure he believes I have stutter in Ver. 5. I answered back saying you should already have my Ver 5 logs from the Beta of Ver. 6 and nothing has changed.

I also asked him yet again for another telephone number, tech support is never going to fix this if they are not willing to pick up a telephone and discuss it. How hard is it to do that.

The way it works right now is about 1 email per day, at that rate we'll never get around to figuring out the problem. It is no wonder they can't fix it, they simply can't operate real time.

Do you know how much can be done in a telephone conversation? I mean they could say check this, I'll say OK and this happens, they'll say do this and let see. Right now 2 attempts takes 2 days. In a week they'll release it as fixed when they have at most made 3 attempts to resolve it.

They need to use the telephone, plain and simple. Pick up the phone and talk to us and we'll help you out. If they can't do that, simply put, they won't fix this bug.

Now, I discovered so far that it seems the stutter may be related to memory usage. When mine started doing it again the entire computer slowed down and I had 1.5 gigs of swap in play due to sage. That's in addition to 1 Gig of real ram. Sage ate up 2.5 gigs of memory, the OS had 5 Megs of real ram left to use. It's no wonder it stuttered.

I did reply back to let them know.

It feels like a waste of time to talk to them, I get the definite impression they simply DO NOT CARE about the problem.

I am beta testing the 6.1 release because I want the stutter gone, they don't seem to want to look into it.

I'll say it again, if they're serious about fixing it they'll pick up the telephone and use it to talk to those of us who have problems. I've beta tested other software and the other companies if they used email responded promptly, not a day later. It was almost real time, and other companies would talk to you on the telephone if needed. Not one of them ever acted like Sage does when it comes to bug reports.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by cummings66

I might have come down a bit hard on George, he wanted me to go back and run Ver 5 and send him a log file where I had no stutter, then come back and install Ver 6.1 and send him a log file where it did stutter.

It honestly struck me that he does not believe it's a software issue, he thinks it's my machine and I'm sure he believes I have stutter in Ver. 5.

From the first paragraph, it sounds more like he wanted to see the difference in the log when there was no studder vs. when there is, to see if that difference held any clues.

Anyway, it sounds like you might be sending things to tech support when you want to be filing a bug report - if you are running v6.1, you should be sending in bug reports since they go directly to the developers. If you are sending in bug reports, then they are trying to compare what is in the logs.

- Andy

[astribli]

Is it a memory leak? I have seen the same thing regarding memory usage. It's as if it never releases any memory. Sage starts off using approx 250 MB but steadily increases each day it is in operation until the OS has to start swapping, which obviously slows things down. I found this out accidentally after having it running for a few days, then selecting or scrolling through lists of mp3 music took longer and longer (and associated tons of disk noise). Turns out it had used up all 750 MB of ram and was swapping.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Opus4

From the first paragraph, it sounds more like he wanted to see the difference in the log when there was no studder vs. when there is, to see if that difference held any clues.

Anyway, it sounds like you might be sending things to tech support when you want to be filing a bug report - if you are running v6.1, you should be sending in bug reports since they go directly to the developers. If you are sending in bug reports, then they are trying to compare what is in the logs.

- Andy

Andy:

I've had the same experience as Cummings. Spent two weeks corresponding with George, sending him files, and he reporting back from the developers that it must be my eqt. It's quite frustrating and, quite frankly, I'm running out of patience and interest, as I'm sure others have.

At a minimum, I think we all would have expected, that before they got out of the 6.0 series, they would have addressed the stutter that many have complained about, and I'm certain there are just as many who are silently watching this thread. Oh, and what about H.264 support, which was expected in 6.1?

[cummings66]

Nope, it goes to Betatest and you get George answering you, then he talks to the developers and sometimes 3 or 4 days go by and you ask him what's up. He'll say he's waiting and then next thing you get something that says try this or that.

The delay caused by the method they use is horrid and will not help fix a bug such as this one. Can you imagine if I tried to tell you how to find a geocache and only gave you one part of the lat/long each day how long that would take to arrive at a destination. That's what happens here and it's silly.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by Ron

Oh, and what about H.264 support, which was expected in 6.1?

I believe that Narflex has already stated it is being worked on and will be a 6.1.x release.

[grauchy]

Originally Posted by grauchy

I recently purchased SageTV, it worked fine until I added a second tuner. If I try to record HD and watch another HD I get stuttering. The system works fine with 1 show at a time but that's unacceptable to me. My machine is Windows XP SP2, nVidia 7800 pci express, 2GB RAM, 2-500GB 7200 SATA Maxtors, AMD 3800+.

I've tried using various combinations of video renderers and such. I even lowered the recording quality to "FAIR". I'm not willing to push quality any lower than that. If I can't figure this out I'm going to have to abandon SageTV for something else.

My hardware is top shelf there should be no reason for my stuttering problem. I'm fairly convinced now that SageTV is designed around SD content and they haven't thought HD through all the way.

Just to confirm that it's not my hardware I grabbed another computer (My gaming rig) P4 2.66 GHz 2GB Ram, 500 GB 7200 SATA. I threw an a180 into it and loaded SageTV up. This computer has an even faster processor than my regular SageTV machine. I continue to experience stuttering. Is there anyone out there that is using SageTV in HD mode with smooth playback?

Also, I still haven't received a response to my official support request so I'm starting to have doubts.

[camus]

Originally Posted by grauchy

Is there anyone out there that is using SageTV in HD mode with smooth playback?

Yes, I get smooth playback in Overlay. In VMR9 I will get occasional stutter/tearing with 1080i unless I use FSE.

For me FSE has gotten much better since v5, especially with the latest RC 6.1.3

[CanadianEh]

I will add that I am using 6.0.19 and also experience a slight stutter with playback. This is on a client PC:

Athlon64 4000+
Windows Server 2003 SP1 (no post-HF's)
512MB eVGA 7950GT SuperOverclocked (yes, that's the model), outputting 1080p resolution over DVI/HDMI
1 GB RAM
2 - 160GB SATA 7200RPM's, hardware mirrored
ForceWare 93.71 (I believe.. latest version)
PureVideo point version 196
SageTV's shipped AC3Filter Audio (sorry if this is the wrong name... I'm at work )

FSE shut off. Turning it on seems to provide no benefit on my system, so I leave this off.

What I see is a microstutter.. it appears to be about 1 frame drop per second.. I'll need to install FRAPS to tell for sure...
EDIT: this is only with 1080i captured video (CBS, NBC).. 720p plays fine, just like everyone else's results

I am going to try to install the latest PureVideo decoder (.223) later this evening to see what that accomplishes

[Narflex]

Originally Posted by cummings66

Nope, it goes to Betatest and you get George answering you, then he talks to the developers and sometimes 3 or 4 days go by and you ask him what's up. He'll say he's waiting and then next thing you get something that says try this or that.

The delay caused by the method they use is horrid and will not help fix a bug such as this one. Can you imagine if I tried to tell you how to find a geocache and only gave you one part of the lat/long each day how long that would take to arrive at a destination. That's what happens here and it's silly.

You're really starting to annoy me. I've personally been working with you now and your latest emails say you can't even reproduce it right now. I've asked you for V5 logs compared to V6 logs but you still haven't done that for me either. You just continue to state that we're not interested in fixing this which is completely untrue.

If there's someone with this problem that actually wants to work with us instead of just complain about it we're more than happy to help. We're very interested in resolving this issue; but so far NO ONE HAS PRESENTED A REPRODUCIBLE CASE OF STUTTERING BEING WORSE IN V6.1 THAN IT WAS IN V5.

Please contact betatest at sagetv dot com if you're willing to help us with this one. There's nothing I'd like more than to have this issue resolved.

[cummings66]

Originally Posted by grauchy

Just to confirm that it's not my hardware I grabbed another computer (My gaming rig) P4 2.66 GHz 2GB Ram, 500 GB 7200 SATA. I threw an a180

The A180 is known to be broken and cause stuttering with SATA drives. Use a PATA drive and you might find your stutter is gone. The issue revolves around a SATA chipset, if you don't have that chipset it works and if you do it doesn't.

So a quick test is to remove your SATA and sub a PATA drive and see if it goes away.

[cummings66]

PS, it was Jeff and not George in Tech support I've talked to. He signed his last email, and yes I upset him by saying if they were serious they'd install a telephone to talk to us.

[grauchy]

Thanks for the replies.

*What is FSE?
*How do I integrate Purevideo into SageTV? I just downloaded the 30 day trial of it so I'de like to give it a shot. It looks like my video card is supported. It says even for H264.
*I'll also try Overlay VMR9 but I'm pretty certain I already tried those two combinations.

[grauchy]

Originally Posted by cummings66

The A180 is known to be broken and cause stuttering with SATA drives. Use a PATA drive and you might find your stutter is gone. The issue revolves around a SATA chipset, if you don't have that chipset it works and if you do it doesn't.

So a quick test is to remove your SATA and sub a PATA drive and see if it goes away.

Is there a fix or work around for that? What if I used a SATA controller on a card? I could use a PATA but that's pretty messed up especially considering I purchased the a180 from SageTV in a bundle.

The only extra PATA drive I have is an 80GB WD not sure of the speed probably 5400. I'll test it if that works I would be willingly to buy a new PATA drive but that's pretty disappointing.

I'll try those things tonight and hopefully that will work. Should I format the 80GB PATA drive with 64k clusters?

[PhillJones]

Originally Posted by grauchy

Thanks for the replies.

*What is FSE?
*How do I integrate Purevideo into SageTV? I just downloaded the 30 day trial of it so I'de like to give it a shot. It looks like my video card is supported. It says even for H264.
*I'll also try Overlay VMR9 but I'm pretty certain I already tried those two combinations.

FSE=Full Screen exclusive.
In this mode, Sage has sole control of the screen and so it's impossible to draw a window over the top of sage, as if it's a computer game. I don't understand the ins and out of it but for me at least, I get tearing with my 6600GT if I don't use it. I think it's less work for the graphics card so tends to give better performance.

PureVideo is an MPEG decoder that can take advantage of hardware acceleration for nVIDIA graphics cards. You have to install the decoder from nVIDIA's website and make sure it's the default decoder. i.e. WMP uses it to playback mpeg files. Then set the video decoder to default inside sage. Unless that bug's been fixed in V6, if you set the decoder manually inside sage, it doesn't work. There are other threads on making nVIDIA be your default decoder, somthing called Radlight filter manager is useful, do a search on the forums.

[GbrNole]

just for the record i have mostly perfect HD playback from sagetv. i say mostly because for some ungodly reason CBS can be the bain of anyone's existance but even that right now aint half bad.

my hardware / software config is as follows:

sagetv 6.1.3 rc
windows xp pro
forceware 93.71
nvidia .223 video decoder
ac3filter 1.11 audio decoder
sagemc theme

intel 865 chipset mobo
intel p4 2.66 533 socket 478 cpu
1x avermedia a180
1x hauppauge hvr-950 (usb hd capture device - works great)
2x hauppauge pvr-500
soundblaster live 24-bit using only coax spdif out
msi 6600gt agp (running stock)
1x 120gb hitachi pata drive for OS
1x 250gb maxtor pata drive 64kb clusters for recordings
1x 500gb WD sata drive for imported videos
2x 512mb corsair select ddr400 value ram
mce remote

there's the pertinent info now onto stuttering...

ok my tv is a vizio 50" plasma 1366x768 res. i feed the tv with a native res if i use the vga hookup or if i use dvi (hdmi) then i can use either 1920x1080i or 1280x720p.

my usual config is to use 1280x720 through dvi. with this setting i can watch ALL hd channels with zero fuss for all but CBS. cbs is still very watchable but occasionally will stutter or at least micro stutter.

wasn't always this simple though -

first and foremost the nvidia audio decoder while it sounds the best is just a stutter pain in the rectum so avoid using it if you can. ac3filter does a fantastic job but you have to set it up right (a problem that sage causes crops up here - not big but still a pain)

secondly i have been through 3 different sound cards and i can honestly say that for all its accolades the chaintech av710 is just a complete and utter piece of crap. it flies the typical VIA flag very, very well. this card also manages to aid in causing stutter amongst other things.

the next sound choice was using the realtek onboard sound. this was a decent change and doing this and using ac3filter eliminated my stutter problems but for some odd reason i would get audio dropouts here and there so it finally led to me putting an old audigy back in.

additional consideration should be paid to the fact that i NEVER had issues with 720p based recordings (FOX & ABC) 1080i from NBC was mostly always watchable with a little stutter and CBS was unwatchable.

at one point i was having stutter on a lot of recordings both SD and HD. this turned out to be because i had a HDD failing (another maxtor 250gb pata) i was only using that drive for archive but i had forgotten that allotted a little space on it to spill over from my primary recording drive. turned out that the drive was doing i/o operations at about 1/10th of it's normal speed so pulling that sucker out of my system fixed that in a flash.

all in all though i have a modest sagetv system with much less than current tech being used (save the WD sata drive and the hvr-950) and stutter really isn't a problem and when it has been a problem it's not really been a sage problem but rather either hardware, 3rd party software or a combo thereof.

not to say that sage might not be able to play more nicely with nvidia audio decoder in the future but right now that's a no go.

i also use minimal HD resolutions but usually increasing the res. only causes stutter because your harware is being taxed beyond its capability so in other words don't try and output 1080p if you're using 6150 onboard graphics.

now back to AC3filter. this kinda gets messed up every time you install a sage update because sage's implementation of AC3filter supercedes the version you have installed and it's a royal pain!

last but not least you can always use a different video decoder. powerdvd never really exhibited much of any stutter for me but the video quality wasn't as good IMO.

[toricred]

Originally Posted by cummings66

The A180 is known to be broken and cause stuttering with SATA drives. Use a PATA drive and you might find your stutter is gone. The issue revolves around a SATA chipset, if you don't have that chipset it works and if you do it doesn't.

So a quick test is to remove your SATA and sub a PATA drive and see if it goes away.

I've got the A180 using a SATA drive and it works perfectly. The only thing I had to do is have the drive in the same machine as the A180.

[cummings66]

It's only a certain version of a Silicon Image chipset I think, but I have forgot what it is because I don't have that one.

[cummings66]

Originally Posted by Narflex

I've asked you for V5 logs compared to V6 logs but you still haven't done that for me either. You just continue to state that we're not interested in fixing this which is completely untrue.

You wanted the Ver 6.1 logs first after it stuttered before I did anything such as install Ver 5 again. As I told you in the email 6.1 started working again after a reboot where Sage consumed all my memory and so far it's not acted like it did before. I've had a couple pauses but that's been the station and not Sage because I could rewind and see it do the same thing at the same place vs the hesitation every couple seconds. I've got more HD coming up tonight, and I saved the HD shows for the Ver 5 rollback.

I have every intention of installing Ver 5.0.4 as soon as I get Ver 6.1 to act up and then you'll have both sets of logs. You asked for things in a certain order and I was going to do that in the order you asked for, under the conditions you wanted to have happen, if you want I can get you Ver 5 logs before I get the other.

You'll notice that I don't blame all stutter on Sage, the A180 issue is well known and all a person has to do is search avsforum and they'll discover people having problems, trying different drivers, etc. to solve a similar problem. The only solution that's good for those unlucky enough to have a SiL3112 has been a PATA drive replacing the SATA drive. This is only with the SiL3112 stuff, newer seems to work.

I've got to give you credit, you haven't banned me yet which I've expected to happen because I've been rather vocal about my displeasure.

Here's my promise to you Jeff, I won't participate in these HD stutter threads anymore unless I know or find out how to solve them. There will be no further postings from me about HD stutter here or elsewhere (I've never posted elsewhere FWIW).

[toricred]

The SATA I was referring to is the SiL3112. I'm not having any problems and never have. I think it's more than that hardware combination.