110% Noob -- hardware setup

[Bajawoojie]

Ok, Im 110% Noob at the whole PVR scene. So here I go.

Im not sure what im doing, I got my video card hooked up, and SageTV is installed. Once I run through the settings and I have to select the input, I dont know if I pick Composite, or TV Tuner. I have a coaxle cable running from my video cards CATV thing, to a converter to convert the coaxle to RCA. Then the RCA goes to my cable boxes audio video out plugs. Am I doing anything wrong? Am I suppose to skip the box all togeather and go directly from the satellites coaxle thats suppose to plug into the box, and go right to the CATV part on the video card? All help would be appreciated. Thanks

I have an ATI Rage 128 All In Wonder. (Yes, I know its old. If I can get this to work I will be uprgrading.)

[PGPfan]

Sounds like there are a few confusing descriptions in what you are doing. I'll try to walk you through it (assuming you are using cable with a set top box).

Hardware config:

Coax from wall into the coax 'input' on your cable box. From the 'output' of the cable box (using s-video cables if possible for best picture) to the 'input' of your capture card. **The ATI "All-in-Wonder" series of cards are software encoding cards and are not known to work well as PVR cards, since I've never used one I can't comment directly here**

Current best practice is to use only hardware encoding cards, and they are available for about $50 on up.

The capture card should have some sort of IR "blaster" that will get aimed at the IR window of your set top box to allow Sage to change the channel on the STB (Set Top Box).

Depending on what you use to view TV on (TV or computer monitor) will determine how to configure the video output from your video card.

From here, it is a matter of telling Sage (using the built-in configuration wizard) how your hardware is set up, and what cable company you use, etc for getting channel lineups and guide data automatically. This is a one time setup, after that Sage just works...

For more complete info, can you post your system (both computer, and cable setup) information in more detail?

Looking forward to helping!

-PGPfan

[Bajawoojie]

If I only use the S video, how will I get sound?
And, my All-In-Wonder doesnt have an S video slot, but my Radeon 9250 Graphic card thats in there does. Could I just use that? Would it work the same, even though its not a tuner?

[PGPfan]

Sorry, my mistake for leaving out the sound. You will need the RCA cables from the 'output' of the STB to the 'input' of the capture card for sound.

You would use the 'output' of the Radeon 9250 to connect to a TV if that is what you are watching from.

I think the term "tuner" is where some confusion is. A "tuner" merely 'tunes' in channels, meaning you can connect an antenna feed (or analog/basic cable) and it will 'tune' to the appropriate channel. If you are using digital cable or have any encrypted channels (HBO, Showtime, etc.) then your "tuner" that is part of the capture card won't work. You would have to use the cable companies STB to descramble the channels out of the s-video and RCA audio cables to the 'input' of the capture card. Now, the STB is the "tuner", and what you refer to as a tuner card is actually a "capture card" since it is capturing the audio and video from the cable tuner. Make any sense to you?

As for the all in wonders, they are software encoding cards - meaning that they require that the CPU of you computer convert (or encode) the video and audio into an MPEG-2 data stream that gets written to your hard drive. This can take up a large amount of your CPU so you really can't simultaneously use the computer and record TV at the same time.

A hardware encoding card on the other hand has special hardware onboard that does the conversion to MPEG-2 in realtime by itself, and so only uses about 5% of your CPU (if that much) allowing you to use your computer for other tasks at the same time (and is MUCH more robust). This is why Sage HIGHLY recommends hardware encoding cards - especially once you start recording 2 or more channels at once.

-PGPfan

[Bajawoojie]

I understand all that, The box so to speak "descrabmels" the TV channels. Then the computer just "intercepts" the feed and records it. I would probably be watching it on the TV but I can hook it up to that later, so for now we will say im using my monitor.

But on my capture card I only have a A/V In, A/V Out, CATV, and a Monitor Plug (Not sure of the technical term). So as far as I can tell i'm either going to have to go buy some new cords or a new capture card. Unless CATV means co axle which I really doubt it does. But IF it does, then I think I have it set up right which is: From the boxes "AV Out" RCA plugs I go to a converter that converts the RCA into co axle. Then the co axle goes to my capture cards CATV.

So im really not sure what im doing wrong, so if anyone posts back, no offense but could you try and explain it as if I was 4?

One last thing. Could I use whatever cords needed and run them from the cable boxes out selection, to my Radeon 9250? I tried that, but under the New Setup options it still said my Rage as my only option, with TV Tuner, Composite, or S Video.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

[sainswor99]

I think it would be helpful if we could see the back of the card; I'm no video expert, but I've set up a number of systems over the years, and this sounds like a pretty basic issue. I tried to find an image of your card, and this is all I could find:

http://www.morepc.ru/i/video/aiw128a.JPG

It doesn't look like there are separate audio imports on the card, based off of your description (hence your need to convert RCA to coax). I don't think that will work for you, however, because I think that the the card would be expecting both audio and video on the coax. I think the ideal way to set this up (at least when this capture card was released) would be to have a separate audio card handling the audio decoding, and using SVGA on the video card. Most modern cards put that functionality on a single card (so you'd have SVGA and RCA on the video card, as well as as a coax input). I'm not sure if Sage can handle a separate audio card when you set it up; I just don't know.

Given your current situation, I think what will work (but not give you great picture) is ignore the audio inputs altogether. Run a single coax cable from your set-top box to your video card; it will carry both the audio and the video from your set-top box to the card in your PC. As PGPfan indicates, you will still need a method for the computer to tell the set-top-box to change channels (hence the need for the IR blaster).


HTH,
Stu

[Bajawoojie]

Again, I am 110% noob, so im not really sure.. But whats an IR Blaster? Is it like a remote control? If so, why cant you just change the channel by clicking a button or somthing? And I tried plugging a co axle into the only thing a co axle plugs into on my tuner card, and from there into the AV Out of the box. But when I selected TV Tuner as the input source it just said "Please wait for preview image" or whatever it says for over 20 minutes. If any of you have AIM, MSN, Yahoo, or anything I can use to talk to you with faster replies, that would be so great.

Thanks.

And yeah, thats a picture of my card it seems. Atleast the back looks the exact same.

[PGPfan]

OK, now that we've seen the connections available on the AIW I agree completely with jds23. You would be best to replace the AIW. It's old technology - (read not real good) and there are FAR BETTER models available now very inexpensively. I'd get the 'white box' PVR-150 from PC-Alchemy without the FM tuner which is only $49 if memory serves me correctly.

Ooops, scratch that recommendation since it doesn't include an IR 'blaster'. Still, consider the PVR-150 'full kit' that does have the 'blaster'. It is more expensive, but you won't regret the purchase in the long run.

-PGPfan

[Bajawoojie]

Does this make sense? Once you get a tuner installed that can handle your cable/satellite feed/s, you can then move onto the Sage install stuff, or use it with the lower 1-80 analog channels now if Sage supports this card (I imagine you checked to verify it was a supported card).

I didnt physically check, but I just assumed that since it showed up as an option to select for the input source. That it was supported, was that wrong of me?

[PGPfan]

Baja,

The 'blaster' is the infra-red emitter part of a remote control. It plugs into the capture card and Sage will use 'it' to tell the cable box what channels to tune and when to tune them.

Make sense?

-PGPfan

[Bajawoojie]

Yeah, so its like a remote control? Err, Edit after rereading: So it just tells the cable box what to do?

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by Bajawoojie

I didnt physically check, but I just assumed that since it showed up as an option to select for the input source. That it was supported, was that wrong of me?

It's not wrong of you. Understand that this card (any AIW) is a software encoder card. Although Sage (if I remember right) does officially support it, they DON'T recommend it. When Sage was starting out they were one of the only companies that REQUIRED a hardware encoding capture card. Most companies didn't, and their software stability suffered because of it. Now, Sage supports software encoders because a lot of us old timers had old cards that we wanted to use as another tuner and by now most of us use Sage as a server so doing other tasks at the same time on the same machine isn't necessary. Software encoding cards 'can' work, but they generally aren't worth the trouble - especially if just starting out.

-PGPfan

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by Bajawoojie

Yeah, so its like a remote control? Err, Edit after rereading: So it just tells the cable box what to do?

Yep, that's what it does. it can control multiple boxes also, so it opens the way for you to have a multi-tuner system once the addictions to Sage sets-in.

-PGPfan

[Bajawoojie]

So my best bet is to go get a new card?

Aside from that, would like jds23 said just plugging the cable directly that goes into the box, right into my tuner card work?

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by Bajawoojie

So my best bet is to go get a new card?

Yep, definately.

Originally Posted by Bajawoojie

Aside from that, would like jds23 said just plugging the cable directly that goes into the box, right into my tuner card work?

It should, but you will be limited to only the analog channels (likely 1-88, I believe), like if you plugged the coax directly into your TV and used the tuner inside it.

-PGPfan

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by Bajawoojie

Yeah, so its like a remote control? Err, Edit after rereading: So it just tells the cable box what to do?

Exactly. If you want to use a set top box with a PVR system, you need to have some method for the PVR system to tell the set top box "hey, switch over to channel 97 now"; that method is to use a IR blaster.

Let me try to back this up to a four-year-old explanation; I tried before, but didn't get too far. For those gear-heads out there who are far more technically inclined than I am, forgive me, it's just a simple explanation.

Cable comes into your house in essentially two flavors: analog, and digital. Both audio and video travel over a coax wire. f you want to access digital channels, you need a set-top-box to descramble the digital signal, and relay it onto your tv.

Let's forget the PVR for a minute. If you were just watching TV, and you wanted to watch the analog channels at a certain time, you could:

1. Run a coax cable from the wall to your TV. This handles both audio & video.

2. Use the tuner inside your TV to switch to the channel at the appointed time.

3. Enjoy.


However, if you want to watch digital TV, you introduce a set-top-box to descramble the channels. To watch TV at a certain time, you would:

1. Run a coax cable from the wall to your set-top-box (STB).

2. Run either a coax cable from the STB to your TV (for both video and sound), or separate the signal into video and sound (three RCA cables or an SVGA cable and an audio cable are some options).

3 You turn your TV to either a specific channel (channel 3 or 4) or a monitor input. You then use the tuner in the STB to change channels.

4. Enjoy.

With me so far? In the analog scenario, the TV is responsible for changing the channels; in the digital scenario, the STB is responsible.

Adding a PVR system like Sage adds only a little more complexity; the tuner card in your PVR system is like your TV. In an analog scenario, the card is responsible for changing channels; there must be a tuner on the card, and the computer tells the card, "I'm ready to record something on channel 97 now". In the digital scenario, the card can't change channels (or it would screw up your recording), so it has to tell the STB that it needs to change channels. The IR Blaster is probably the most accepted method of doing it.


Echoing what the other posters are saying: get a new video card. You probably need one with IR blaster capability (unless you only want to record the analog channels).

I'm not sure what you meant when you said:

And I tried plugging a co axle into the only thing a co axle plugs into on my tuner card, and from there into the AV Out of the box. But when I selected TV Tuner as the input source

Try running the coax cable from the wall directly to the card, and select TV tuner as an option. Hopefully that will get you started, and bring you some enlightenment.

HTH,
Stu

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Echoing what the other posters are saying: get a new video card. You probably need one with IR blaster capability (unless you only want to record the analog channels).

I assume you meant a new 'capture' card, rather than a 'video' card, right?

-PGPfan

[sainswor99]

I knew I'd flub something in that post

[Bajawoojie]

Do ABC and NBC count as analog channels? That I can record just by plugging the cord that goes to my box into my capture card? All I really wanted this for was recording shows like Lost, Las Vegas, etc, etc to my computer for later viewing.

[PGPfan]

They 'should' be on the analog feed, but that would depend entirely on your cable company.

I'd still strongly consider getting a real 'hardware' capture card regardless. Are you planning on dedicating this machine to only recording TV? If not, then I wouldn't even try setting it up without a new card.

Just my .02.

-PGPfan