PC PVR and Satelite or Digital Box

[JParedis]

Currently my cable provider gives an analog signal over coax. I plug this into my Hauppauge PVR150 and I'm stettled.

As in many countries, cable providers are switching over to digital transmission. I do need to buy a ditial receiver box on which I select the station to look at (so no longer selected on the TV). The provider also offers additional services via this box (including EPG and recording of TV shows).

My question is, how can I use SageTV (or any other PC software) to schedule/capture TV? How can it select the stations? Do I use the infrared output from the PVR150 for this? How?

Same question goes for satelite receivers, how are they to be managed?

Not that I'm going for digital straight away, but want to gather info so I can start gradually moving over (I can already get a digital box) so I'm ready by when all TV is digital.

Jan

[mattdcknsn]

I am currently running a 150 to capture digital cable, and a 250 to capture analog. The digital cable box downloads the EPG and everything, it just doesnt use it. You have to either have a UIRT or IR blaster to change the channel, or if your lucky enough, have a STB that has a serial connection enabled. You set it up the same way as a regular analog signal. The only difference is that Sage has to change the channel manually to record the show.

I have my digital STB outputing s-video to the capture card. I have only had a couple of problems with getting the wrong channel via UIRT. 99.9% of the time it works fine.

[JParedis]

Thanks, that is more or less what I expected - sadly enough.

So to recap, the setup would be:
- Setup the digital box
- Connect the output to the Hauppauge 150 (I also use that card)
- Download as today your EPG - that would be XMLTV (Europe) for me
- Have SageTV change the channels using the Hauppauge 150 IR Blaster.

I assume this does remove the digital aspect/advantage of it all, the Hauppauge card can not handle that one. Or am I incorrect?

I may thus be holding this of for a while. In future, I'll have to go one of 2 routes:

1. SageTV starts supporting Digital PC cards as the Twinhan Cable or Twinhan Satellite one, but that may take some serious re-development - certainly if they want to use the included EPG.
Notice these card support the decorder card entry (so not only free TV), a requirement for me.

2. Stop using SageTV and figure out another way to 'control' the PC from my TV set.

I believe SageTV may have a challenge ahead, their current setup may become outdated - it will be a must to start supporting Digital PC cards very soon .

Jan

[sainswor99]

I guess I don't understand; although I don't use a set-top-box (STB), it seems to be a pretty straight-forward setup:

1. Connect the video output of the STB to your tuner card (using coax or s-video or composite if your card supports it).
2. Use an IR blaster from your PC to tell the STB to change channels as needed.
3. Set up Sage and tell it you're using an STB.

I don't think you're losing the digital aspect at all; unless I'm misunderstanding the question.

[brewston]

Jan

I can reply based on how I have Sky digital set up here in the UK. My STB has a SCART output, I bought a converter to convert this to composite and plugged that into the PVR-150. Although the satellite signal is digital, the SCART output is analog hence using an analog tuner. You can use the PVR-150's IR blaster to control the set top box (There are other solutions like USB-UIIRT or a device I bought especially for Sky boxes)

Although the STB has its own EPG I've found no way of getting that in to Sage, hence I'm using XMLTV too

Hope that helps

Tim

[JParedis]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

I don't think you're losing the digital aspect at all; unless I'm misunderstanding the question.

Originally Posted by brewston

Although the satellite signal is digital, the SCART output is analog hence using an analog tuner.

I believe I understand the setup of the STB, but would expect - as Brewston suggested - that using coax or s-video or composite brings it all down to analog. Must be, how else could the PVR-150 handle the signal (it can only deal with analog signal).

Brewston, I guess the STB has a digital output available, so with a digital PC card you could record Digital? But is there such a card supported by SageTV?

What I'm looing for is how to receive Digital, record Digital and replay Digital. I see some messages on HD recording via SageTV, and just do not see how this is done. SageTV wants MPEG2 and isn't HD MPEG4? I'm probably making a serious logic error here, this Digital stuff being new to me, but do want to move to a new (H)Digital setup if possible with SageTV.

Jan

[brewston]

OK, I think I understand your concern. You want digital all the way to the PC and unless you have DVB-T in your country (ie digital over an aerial) you'd be needing a DVB-S (digital over satellite) PCI card. Sage doesn't support this yet.

See http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21524
and http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21781

To further complicate matters, satellite signals are often encrypted and need a smart card to decode them. Meaning you'd need some sort of card reader installed in your PC - see http://www.dvbshop.net/

Personally, I'm sticking to the solution in previous post, its not perfect but it works

Tim

PS - I've not even looked at how HD would work !

[doc]

Just to add to Tims comments, my system is exactly the same as Tim describes, except I have a pvr350.

The output from the scart socket, via a convertor to composite, gives a much better picture quality than using the coax.

Its definately the easiest solution for now.

[JParedis]

Thanks for that feedback/input.

I'm after that feedback thinking to do following:

1. Leave my coax as is today, running SageTV.

2. Add to my central PC - or if compatibility issues with Sage on a separate one - a DBV-S or DBV-C (we have both available) PC card and do some testing. I will get more info on the DBV-S and DBV-C PCI cards, I prefer one with the CAM included instead of a separate one. If it doesn't work out, I'll go for the setup as you are having.

Now to discuss this with my Ministery of Finance (a.k.a. wife)

Jan

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by JParedis

Brewston, I guess the STB has a digital output available, so with a digital PC card you could record Digital? But is there such a card supported by SageTV?

What I'm looing for is how to receive Digital, record Digital and replay Digital. I see some messages on HD recording via SageTV, and just do not see how this is done. SageTV wants MPEG2 and isn't HD MPEG4? I'm probably making a serious logic error here, this Digital stuff being new to me, but do want to move to a new (H)Digital setup if possible with SageTV.

Jan

STBs provided by digital cable providers don't have digital outputs that can be fed into the PC. Only analog outputs, which means that you go from Digital to Analog the convert back to digital in the PC. Not Ideal.

In your case the digital cable provider is using DVB-C. By getting a DVB-C card for the PC you can tune to those signals if they are not encrypted.
I believe DVB-C is or will soon be supported in SageTV.

I the DVB-C signal is encrypted then there maybe a CAM module available and compatible with your DVB-C card in which you can place the Smart Card provided by the provider.

We need more information on the transmission format of your provider before making more specific suggestions.

I can think of one card, FloppyDTV and there are others.

[IncredibleHat]

Just to throw some more confusion into the mix:

How do you WATCH normally from that "Digital" Cable box if you had no PC in the mix? How does it connect to your TV? Is it using AV, Composite, HDMI? Is your TV an HDTV? EDTV? Or just Standard Definition (SD)?

If its a "H"Digital cable box, then you are in the realm of HD. Satellite providers provide 'digital' channels, but they are not HD. They also provide HD channels for an insanely stupid extra cost for just 10 or so channels (most being useless sports channels).

Those are two different things actually. HD and Digital Cable.

SageTV, as far as I thought, supports HD Input Cards and HD content.

I guess I'm not seeing the importance of trying to keep the 'raw digital' feed that exact same from the feed line to the house, to the PC, when the end result is still an SD picture on your TV.

[JParedis]

Originally Posted by Lucas

I the DVB-C signal is encrypted then there maybe a CAM module available and compatible with your DVB-C card in which you can place the Smart Card provided by the provider.

We need more information on the transmission format of your provider before making more specific suggestions.

I can think of one card, FloppyDTV and there are others.

Lucas, the DVB-C signal is encrypted and requires a smarcard (CAM module required) to be put in the STB. I have seen solutions with PC cards requiring an additional card reader (example), and PC cards with the card reader included (example).

As cable companies have often local monopolies they present only their STB (one with and one without PVR functionality). I'm not in favor as they leave me as consumer no freedom of choise between separate hardware providers. Hence I may be more going into a DVB-S setup, as here provider and hardware equipment are clearly separated. There is a sattelite provider that provides all channels I can get via cable ... and more. This at same/bit lower cost. This one works also with a smartcard, and also here PC cards are available (example).

The satellite signal is coded with Mediaguard /V1+ (don't know yet about the cable signal). Tested and approved satellite receiver hardware: Philips DSR 2210, Philips DSR 2211, ThomsonTS4H, Strong SRT 6850, Arion PVR 9280, Adimo Jazz DVB S6800V1+, Inverto IDL 7000m, Homecast S5001 CI, Lemon 070 PVR. Already more options.

So I would need to check if the PC DVB-S card can deal with Mediaguard /V1+. For DVB-C I would first need to find out how they code their signal.

Clearly I'm still in the information gathering phase of my project .

Originally Posted by IncredibleHat

Just to throw some more confusion into the mix:

How do you WATCH normally from that "Digital" Cable box if you had no PC in the mix? How does it connect to your TV? Is it using AV, Composite, HDMI? Is your TV an HDTV? EDTV? Or just Standard Definition (SD)?

If its a "H"Digital cable box, then you are in the realm of HD. Satellite providers provide 'digital' channels, but they are not HD. They also provide HD channels for an insanely stupid extra cost for just 10 or so channels (most being useless sports channels).

Those are two different things actually. HD and Digital Cable.

SageTV, as far as I thought, supports HD Input Cards and HD content.

I guess I'm not seeing the importance of trying to keep the 'raw digital' feed that exact same from the feed line to the house, to the PC, when the end result is still an SD picture on your TV.

I don't have an STB at this moment, but am looking into it. I like my SageTV setup so much, that I'm looking into a ditigal setup meeting SageTV provided functionality (and liberty). So yes, today my TV set will not give me any added value, but I'm gathering information on how I could setup all (including new HD TV) to be ready.

How it works today with the STB's, they are SCART linked to a non digital TV (so using analog output) - so no real added value. Digitial TV sets are on the market, but I do not know how (if) an STB gives the digital signal to the TV sets (don't even know if SCART supports that). Today cable companies sell STB's more based on the added functionality (e.g., PVR, EPG, pay-by-view functions), less on improved image quality. I assumed just moving from analog to digital signal (and TV set) would improve image - but now I'm doubting that today's STB's are capable to do so. Another item on my to-find-out-list.

Regarding HD itself . Europe started digital years ago, but it never picked up. So they went all to 16:9 analog TV sets. It's only recent that digital became again 'hot', and now HD TV sets are hitting the market (guess they combine the digital aspects + being ready once HD is here, more the DVD than HD TV signal I assume). I also believe there is a European directive that all must be digital by ... I believe 2010 or something, not sure. And yes, after re-thinking your feedback, digital itself has low added value - it's the HD which does it. So it's for me maybe more important to have the digital via SageTV without having to use the cable provider's STB (and be limited with it).

FYI, there is a satellite stations with real HD channels, and PCI cards seem to support it. But I need to do more reading on this one.


All this feedback gave me very good items to consider and added a lot to my to-research-list. Thanks .

[IncredibleHat]

I understand the desire to eliminate the "STB" in the whole mix. Its the one leading factor why I held out onto analog cable from the wall over getting satellite digital tv... it was the nightmare of setting up two STB's that sage will control.

Sure, it would be FAR EASIER to just pipe that raw feed into the PC and have sage do all the work. HECK that would be awesome! It's just not possible yet (yet? hehe).

I've got a big 1080p capable HDM (its not really a hdtv, its an hd monitor FOR hdtv/sdtv stbs). My PC just plugs right into it with DVI, so the signal is digital from pc to screen. However going from the two new STB's I will be getting for satellite, they will be going into the pc via the analog channels (svideo or component av).

Sage will then just use ir blasting (or if I'm lucky, serial or firewire) to tell each satbox what channel to tune too.

This of course leaves the problem if I want to watch a PPV channel, I have to do that manually with the Satbox remote control, because sagetv is too stupid to do remote commands through like that, because its only listening, not actually controlling (if that makes any sense).

Its a lot of work huh

[JParedis]

IncredibleHat, I'm with you. And if I did not believe that soon the local cable company will move more channels away from their analog towards their digital offering, I would wait and stick to what I got today: a very well working SageTV based setup (finally fine-tuned as I want it). As it stands today however, I need to be prepared - and the earlier one starts to gather info, the better the selection (I hope).

I also had yesterday evening some further discussions on this, and as I understand now (just mentioning it in case I got it wrong, so I can be corrected):

- Analog versus Digital. The analog signal does loose quality when traveling all that distance over the cable. Digital does not, and the short analog 'travel' between the STB and PC/TV does not really hurt the image quality. So digital will improve the quality of the image - even when at end delivered as analog. Digital also provides better sound - STB's normally have a digital audio output - and normally include EPG.
- Digital versus HD. This one does of course increase the quality of the image drastically, I do not believe it does anything else on top of the already mentioned digital advantages. The difference is also, I believe, that digital is MPEG2 and HD is (always?) MPEG4.


I haven't figured out yet if I should wait for SageTV to support Digital PCI cards or start working with STB's. Digital PCI cards via SageTV would be great, the image is already MPEG2 so no encoding required - save the signal straight away on the hard disk. STB via the PVR-150 does change MPEG2-digtal into analog, and than the PVR-150 changes that analog back into MPEG2-digital (what a waste ). Just wished I could look in the SageTV management head so I would know what they are thinking to do .

Maybe I should keep my analog channels linked to my PVR-150 and add a second PVR-150 to which I hook an STB. Once I got that working, I can cancel the analog provider contract (if the STB is satellite).

Jan

[IncredibleHat]

Originally Posted by JParedis

Maybe I should keep my analog channels linked to my PVR-150 and add a second PVR-150 to which I hook an STB. Once I got that working, I can cancel the analog provider contract (if the STB is satellite).

That is actually what I'm going to do.

The installer is going to be installing a PVR upstairs for the living room tv that has no HTPC connections, then two standard boxes on two other tvs. I won't let him try to hook it up to the htpc, or even know about the htpc... I don't need the headache of a bucktooth buttcracked redneck installer trying to figure out what it is I am going to do when he leaves

I will keep the analog for a while, still routed to the HTPC so I can record shows tonight and this weekend without worry while I start to mess with the STBs during the day when nothing is scheduled. It'll be sort of a juggle for a bit till I get the right things working. Mainly the blaster control, which is already proving to be a nightmare as the first step (installing EXEMultiTunerPlugin) is completely and utterly failing to show up in Sage 6.

The satellite installer is coming out today...

[JParedis]

Do let me know how it worked out, any items I should prevent when messing about with the IR Blaster are welcome

Success!

Jan

[brewston]

Originally Posted by IncredibleHat

That is actually what I'm going to do.

Mainly the blaster control, which is already proving to be a nightmare as the first step (installing EXEMultiTunerPlugin) is completely and utterly failing to show up in Sage 6.

I played around with this recently, the EXETunerPlugin uses the SageTV registry entry whereas the EXEMultiTunerPlugin uses the Frey one. Not sure if this is even your problem but though I would pass it on

Tim

[heffe2001]

Why not just use Mytheatre for the signal decoding from your DVB-S, and the Sage plugin for it to pull it into Sage?

http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=12473

I use it, and it works very well. You can also use the guide info from your MyTheatre, but requires XMLTV & a few other hoops to jump through to get it working though...

[JParedis]

Originally Posted by heffe2001

Why not just use Mytheatre for the signal decoding from your DVB-S, and the Sage plugin for it to pull it into Sage?

http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=12473

I use it, and it works very well. You can also use the guide info from your MyTheatre, but requires XMLTV & a few other hoops to jump through to get it working though...

I did some quick reading, and before I go into this deeper just a check (the site does not give clear info, or I did not go to the right page maybe).

Do I understand correctly that:
- MyTheatre is a software that supports using a PCI DVB card (and also plays other media files).
- It's more a player than a full HTPC software (recording, scheduling, ...) as SageTV.
- The SageTV plugin does allow SageTV to use MyTheatre to interface with the DVB PCI card so you got the functionality of SageTV with digital input. It also allows SageTV to use the EPG data (so MyTheatre does read/display EPG data).

If above is correct, than I need to:
- Find a PCI DVB-S card which supports my provider's requirements (still to find out what all these could be).
- Once found, download MyTheatre and check if it works on that card.
- If it works, get the plugin and have connect SageTV to it.
- If all that works, pay license for MyTheatre.

Is this more or less correct?

One question on this setup, how does the signal 'move'? Does it remain digital all the way (guess so)?

Jan

[heffe2001]

The setup for the EPG stuff is a bit involved, but basically you're right on the functionality. You basically have a program that extracts the epg info from the MyTheatre DBF format, into XML, then use xmltv to import it into Sage. There's a couple different ways to do it, but all are basically the same.

As for the signal path, it's digital from the dish to the card, to the HD. Basically the card decodes the stream and just copies the decoded data directly to the drive.

I would imagine if you asked on the dvbcore forums, someone is using MyTheatre in your area and could give you an idea what to use. As long as it works in that program though, it should work with the Sage plugin.

And the Mytheatre app is really more of a viewer than a full-fledged media center.