SageTV prevents Hard Disk Power down

[nielm]

My Sage system sits in the living room undere the TV, using an ultra-quiet fanless Hush system... It all works well, except that Sage does not let the hard disk power down, which means that there is a constant very faint hum from the spinning disk, which can get annoying after a while...

Using Filemon I can see that every few minutes, Sage accesses the hard disk to:

• Re-write sage.properties (and save the backup copy)
• Search all library directories to check for modified files

(The second is a problem because with NTFS formatted drives, every read access to a directory updates the 'last-accessed' timestamp, requring a disk write, This can be disabled with the NtfsDisableLastAccessUpdate registry tweak. )

As I have 512Mb RAM, I have also added the DiablePagingExecutive registry tweak to prevent the Windows Kernel from being swapped out of RAM, and thus needing to swap itself back in, requiring disk access...

However, this does not help because Sage is still writing to disk when it updates the sage.properties file... I have checked these updates and the only thing it seems to be changing is the uptime, which is not an essential update...

Is there any way to change the interval between these properties file uptime updates from every few minutes to every few (eg 6) hours? This would allow the HDD to power down and let my living room be completely quiet!

I will also investigate running Sage from a RamDisk to see if that helps...

(note registry tweaks for WinNT/2K/XP only)

[nielm]

Running Sage from a RamDisk helps a lot! The sage.properties file is written to the ramdisk, leaving the real hard disk to power down... I can now have total silence in my living room!

I now have to set up some kind of system for preserving my properties file -- that is unless there is a secret option for changing the autosave interval?

[stanger89]

Just curious but how did you setup your ramdisk?

About saving your properties file, you could probably setup a windows schedule to copy your sage dir to a safe location at regular intervals. Just write a batch file something like:
xcopy /Y /E (sagedir)\* (safedir)\*

[nielm]

xcopy: yeah thats what I was thinking... a batchfile to copy files to Ramdisk on boot, run sage (and wait) then to copy files back after Sage exits... and then a second scheduled task to copy file updates back to the HDD regularly...

Ramdisk: I used the freeware driver at ramdisk.tk, set up a 16Mb NTFS ramdisk, and copied the directory
C:\Program Files\Frey Technologies\SageTV to the root of the ramdisk... I then ran SageTV from the ramdisk..

It looks like the wiz.bin file is always saved to the C:\Program Files\Frey Technologies\SageTV directory, so I only have to worry about copying the properties file...

[SHS]

You need make changes to Sage.properties and Sage.properties.autobackup

wizard/db_backup_file=C\:\\Program Files\\Frey Technologies\\SageTV\\Wiz.bak
wizard/db_file=C\:\\Program Files\\Frey Technologies\\SageTV\\Wiz.bin

I though there was there RAMdisk that can do this with image file loading that automatic save image

[nielm]

I prefer that my wiz.* are actually saved to the harddisk -- it means that any EPG updates/favourites are immediately saved on the permenant storage...
It is only the regular uptime updates to the sage.properties file that I am trying to avoid...

[nielm]

For what it's worth, I have created + attached 2 batch files...

The first startsage_z.bat runs on startup and copies the sage files to the ramdisk, and then starts Sage... When sage exits, it copies the changed files back to the hard disk.

The second copychanged_z.bat I run as a scheduled task every 6 hours. (using the runhide.exe program so that the window does not pop up at random!) so that any changes to the properties files get copied back to the HDD...

I have changed all my SageTV shortcuts to point to z:\SageTV\SageTv.exe...

It would be nice if I could just change the uptime-update timeout... but this works around the problem for me...

[Alex0230]

Is this about the only way people have been able to get their system to go to standy/hibernate while Sage is running? I'm noticing with FileMon that Sage is reading a bunch of files but is FLUSHING wiz.bin, WRITING sage.properties/backup, and WRITING sage_0.txt.

I'm wondering if the flush of wiz.bin is affecting the timestamp, and if I went with the ramdisk, I'd probably have to do the 3 files.

On a side note:
When you guys were running filemon, did you notice that everytime you run through the menu, it was a new read from the picture file for the menu buttons, etc? Maybe there could be a faster way to do that...and make the menu more efficient? I think this might be inherent in Java, it might go out and fetch the picture each time to render it..... :/

EDIT:

OH, I see what the batch files the nielm created are doing in regards to the ramdisk...weldone!! : ) What if I don't want to update using the second batch file, what I'm trying to avoid is sage writing to the hard disk when I'm in sleep mode....I guess I could write a program that would get called from the remote ini on the GRNPWER....but nonetheless, I like what you've done with the ramdisk/batch file.

Does the ramdisk get saved during a hibernate? We'll see soon I guess.... : )

Yeah, this works great...I use a 32 mb ram disk to use for sage tv and my system now sleeps on its own...along with sagewake (can be found in the forums) my system and sleep and wake up during the day.

[teedublu]

Thanks for the batch posted batch files (above) nielm.

I've got a couple of questions:

1- runhide.exe is included & mentioned, but how is it used? I'm guessing: Something like a shortcut is created to execute the copy batch and that's where runhide.exe is executed (runhide.exe copychanged_z.bat).

2- what's the purpose of the ping commands? (start and copy both feature it with a different -n count).

TW

[nielm]

Note - this was written for Sage 1.4, it does not seem to work in 2.0 -- even when using ramdisk the disks do not power down, and Sage needs more disk space for generated thumbnail files.

1 runhude is to stop a command prompt window from popping up in from of everything -- the scheduled command is like you said, or runhide.exe cmd.exe start /min copychanged_z.bat to create a minimised command prompt window.

2 ping is used as a 10-second (or whatever I put as -n) sleep so that the window does not close immediately, allowing debugging.

[mls]

Although this would not solve the hard shut down issue, have you tried the smaller quieter Laptop hard drives at all?

I don't have one of those here either, but my hard drives are pretty quite anyway. Part of that has to do with the case and mounting design.

I know a few people have mentioned using Laptop drives in other posts, but I do wonder just how well they work or how long they would last with SageTV usage?

[teedublu]

I'm not doing it for noise -- drives are vibe isolated.

I guess the only solution then is to literally do an install to the ramdisk.
To avoid that, use junction points to make a virtual link. There is a freeware util that simplifies that since the routines may not be installed in Win2K (or XP).

http://www.rekenwonder.com/linkmagic...unction%20Link

The rub is that the junction directory has to be empty And in a NTFS partition (the target can be FAT), which means you cannot easily revert or run either way. You obviously have to have your source files on the hard drive, so you could have 2 batch files that can change the junction link to point to the ramdisk or the local disk. This way all your shortcuts etc... stay the same (windows doesn't know the difference).

However, I haven't tried this yet....

TW

[mls]

If you are not doing it for the noise, then I'll have to assume you are doing to cut energy cost or just to see if it can be done. That's ok too.

On my end, the electric is included in the rent and does not vary with how much I use. So, the electric bill is not a problem here.

As a side point, there has been considerable debate thru the years as to which is better... shutting down a computer, or leaving it run constantly.

The thermal expansion/contraction of on/off does take a toll on the chips, but constant running wears out the hard drives and fans. A 6 of one, half dozen of the other type problems.

I've had to fix 2 computers so far because the CPU fan did not start, and almost fried 2 power supplies because those fans did not start when powering up the systems. In all these cases I found that if the power was on, I could reach in with a pen and give the fans a push and they would run just fine until the next time they were powered off. Then they may, or may not start on next power up.

Of course, none of those systems and built in RPM or temp monitoring (which my newer ones now do for obvious reasons).

For my own usage, I've decided to just leave my computers run all the time (unless I have a need to shut them down to change hardware). I figure by the time the fans or hard drives do actually wear out I'll already be upgrading or building totally new computers anyway.

Of course, that's just my own personal choice. Others will have to make their own decisions for their own usage.

BTW: I do like the RAM drive idea and have always wanted to try a few things with one myself. Just haven't had any real reason to actually do so yet though.

[nielm]

for me even with vibe isoled drives in a sealed case, there is still a faint audible whine from my disks. I can only hear this when there is no other noise at all!!

I think the reason why ramdisk does not work is because Sage 2.0 turns off windows' power management when it is running, so even install to ramdisk will not help... YMMV!

[mls]

Have you checked your SageTV.properties file to make sure of this setting?

"ui/disable_screen_saver_and_pm=true"

Not sure if that totally stops Sage from messing with the Power Management stuff, but I think the default is set to false while you may need/want it set to true.

[TheGooch]

I ran into the same problem. While the wife and I are trying to sleep at night (it's now 6am and I can't sleep), I noticed the hard drive winding down (it's set to sleep after 3 minutes). Then two minutes after it went into sleep mode the hard drive would wind up again because SageTV.exe was doing a FLUSH on the Wiz.bin file. The other accesses it was doing (checking dirs for new files to import) didn't appear to start the drive back up (probably because the data is still cached and no need to hit the disk if nothing changed). Three minutes later the drive would go into sleep mode again, rinse & repeat.

So, I am trying something a little different to save the hard drive from spinning up and down all night and it should also solve the problem of possibly losing data or having to run different batch files at certain times to backup/restore the file to non-volatile media (the hard drive).

I plugged in an old 64MB USB stick that I wasn't using (I use a 1GB stick now). Then I updated my config file entry from:

wizard/db_file=C\:\\Program Files\\Frey Technologies\\SageTV\\Wiz.bin
to:
wizard/db_file=G\:\\SageTV\\Wiz.bin

Then I shut down SageTv and copied the current Wiz.bin over to the new G:\SageTV directory on the USB stick. This shouldn't make any noise, and should always have the data saved incase of power loss or regular shutdown.

I'll let you know how it turns out. Maybe I'll finally be able to get some sleep.

Mike

Update: After changing the Sage.properties and Sage.properties.autobackup config files, I don't see any Wiz.dat files getting updated (in the C: drive or the G: drive). The date/time stamps of the wiz.dat files are still old. Maybe Flush doesn't work on USB memory sticks? Doing any access on the USB stick doesn't seem to show any hits in Filemon. It's looking like the flush isn't happening at all now (which is bad).

Update2: I'm not sure what I did wrong previously but now the Wiz.bin on the USB stick is getting updated properly.

[teedublu]

Before you start relaxing....
My wiz.bin file is now around 9GB. So that 1GB USB drive will probably fill pretty soon. We don't record that much stuff (IR is off) but have been using Sage since version 1.4ish. We're also careful to not set "watched" unnecessarily. Unfortunately Sage does not provide a Wiz.bin browser cleanup utility (other than using the unwatching-all of a current favorite function, which helps).

The other option, which doesn't work for my system, but does for others, is to allow your system to go to S3 standby or hibernate after a short idle period (no more than 10mins). Doesn't work for me cause my system has a serial port driven IR blaster that stops working after resume. This is true for some systems and not for others....

TW

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by teedublu

My wiz.bin file is now around 9GB.

Are you sure that file size isn't 9 MB? GB just sounds a bit large...

- Andy

[teedublu]

geeez! or GBeeezz...

never mind.....

TW

[stevech]

Originally Posted by TheGooch

Update:
Update2: I'm not sure what I did wrong previously but now the Wiz.bin on the USB stick is getting updated properly.

USB flash drive memory sticks are arranged as a device-type than are not write-cached by Windows. This is to prevent data loss if one unplugs the device before buffers are flushed. Floppies and so on are also non-cached.