New User - Planning System

[BFisher]

Hi guys - been researching and reading here for the last couple weeks (wow there is a lot to read). I think I have everything sorted out in my head, but want to check before I start buying.

I am planning to purchase a Sage Server and 4 clients. 3 of the clients will be the SD clients and 1 will be the upcoming HD client (eventually I will swap out the SD clients as I replace the other TVs). Also, I want the server to be able to display content (connected to a soon to be purchased projector).

I'm planning on using the HDHomeRun to get 2 tuners connected to TimeWarner cable. Also, I'll add 1 tuner (WinTV-PVR-150) to the server PC and connect to a cable STB in case there are any encoded channels (I don't know since I use DirecTV currently). Majority of our TV viewing is local channels and USA/Speed/FX/Food, etc which I assume is not encoded. We may add HD HBO, etc. which I believe is encoded (which would need the STB). This will let me record 3 simultaneous shows if needed.

My questions:
1) see any issues? anything you'd recommend I do differently?
2) is there a difference between the hauppauge MediaMVP or Sage Extenders?
3) If I connect the server to the projector via a high-quality video card, am I OK purchasing a 1080p projector? Can the server scale properly, etc.? I assume that's a function of the video driver more than the Sage Server software?
4) I believe each TV can watch something differently through the clients... but can 2 TVs watch the same thing? (I assume they won't be in sync, but that's OK).

I'm sure I'll have more questions - but I want to make sure I have the basics right before I start specing out the server. Feel free to make any other recommendations besides these few questions. Thanks!!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by BFisher

Hi guys - been researching and reading here for the last couple weeks (wow there is a lot to read). I think I have everything sorted out in my head, but want to check before I start buying.

I am planning to purchase a Sage Server and 4 clients. 3 of the clients will be the SD clients and 1 will be the upcoming HD client (eventually I will swap out the SD clients as I replace the other TVs). Also, I want the server to be able to display content (connected to a soon to be purchased projector).

FWIW, there is no HD extender (yet), we don't know when it will be out.

I'm planning on using the HDHomeRun to get 2 tuners connected to TimeWarner cable. Also, I'll add 1 tuner (WinTV-PVR-150) to the server PC and connect to a cable STB in case there are any encoded channels (I don't know since I use DirecTV currently). Majority of our TV viewing is local channels and USA/Speed/FX/Food, etc which I assume is not encoded. We may add HD HBO, etc. which I believe is encoded (which would need the STB). This will let me record 3 simultaneous shows if needed.

I tell people, anything you can't get with your analog tuner, (ie your digital stations), expect to need a box to receive them. Some people luck out and have a lot of "clear" digital cable, but some get almost nothing clear.

Oh, and I'd suggest a nice dual-tuner card to get all your analog channels without a box. Most of the ones you list are probably analog and thus the HDHR won't be able to tune them.

My questions:
1) see any issues? anything you'd recommend I do differently?

I personally like having my server separate and dedicated, primarilly for noise reasons. Storage is loud itself and hard to keep cool (which is essential) quietly). So my server is headless and dedicated, and my HTPC which feeds my projector has just a laptop drive.

2) is there a difference between the hauppauge MediaMVP or Sage Extenders?

Hardware wise, no, but if you buy them through Sage (or as SageTV Extenders), you get the Extender license, if you buy them as MediaMVPs, you have to purchase the license separately.

3) If I connect the server to the projector via a high-quality video card, am I OK purchasing a 1080p projector?

Sure.

Can the server scale properly, etc.?

You'll probably get some debate on it, but IMO, yes, it will scale very well. I hear the GeForce 8 series is very good in that regard. Not sure about the ATI 2xxx series.

I assume that's a function of the video driver more than the Sage Server software?

Yup, has almost nothing to do with Sage.

4) I believe each TV can watch something differently through the clients...

Yes, all clients are independent.

but can 2 TVs watch the same thing? (I assume they won't be in sync, but that's OK).

All TVs can watch whatever they want, they can all watch the same thing, at any place in that thing they want. The only limitation applies to recordings and LiveTV. You're limited in the number of LiveTV channels+recordings to the number of tuners you have (and their respective lineups).

[BFisher]

Very cool - thanks for the feedback. Glad you posted about the digital versus analog channels. I naively assumed most channels are digital (but not HD) (I've been on satellite so long I don't know much about cable). I'll do some more research but you've put me on the right track. Interesting thought about Sage server versus a separate HTPC... something I will have to consider.

Thanks!

[BFisher]

One more quick question...

If a program is recorded in HD, but I want to play it on a TV that has a SD extender, will it work? I realize it wouldn't be in HD... but can it be "downgraded" to SD on the fly?

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by BFisher

One more quick question...

If a program is recorded in HD, but I want to play it on a TV that has a SD extender, will it work? I realize it wouldn't be in HD... but can it be "downgraded" to SD on the fly?

Yes, it will be letter-boxed on the 4:3 screen. But it uses CPU resources to transcode on the fly. So make sure your server is fast enough.

[stanger89]

If you've got enough horsepower in the server, yes, Sage will transcode it on the fly.

An Athlon XP 1800+ (my server) is definitely not enough.

[BFisher]

great news guys. I am building a new server specifically for Sage so I will ensure I get enough muscle to do it.

On to designing my server!

Thanks

[othy]

Originally Posted by BFisher

I'm planning on using the HDHomeRun to get 2 tuners connected to TimeWarner cable. Also, I'll add 1 tuner (WinTV-PVR-150) to the server PC and connect to a cable STB in case there are any encoded channels (I don't know since I use DirecTV currently). Majority of our TV viewing is local channels and USA/Speed/FX/Food, etc which I assume is not encoded. We may add HD HBO, etc. which I believe is encoded (which would need the STB). This will let me record 3 simultaneous shows if needed.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Unless you luck out and Time Warner doesn't 5c encrypt HD HBO, you won't be able to tune it with your HDHR. If you record it from the STB, it won't be HD.

With my cable provider, the only channels I can get through the HDHR (and therefore as HD recordings) are my locals,

For many markets, the AVS forums are a good place to research which channels will be available to you.

Sounds like you're going to have a great setup.

Tim

[BFisher]

You may be right Tim, I haven't got that far yet (and I have satellite currently, but if what you say is true, very little reason to convert to TimeWarner if I can get my locals in HD via antennae).

Very sad that you can't record any other HD channels... even with a box or satellite tuner.

[bcjenkins]

If you have cable internet, check to see if you have the QAM access too. At least it would save on the cost of a decent antenna install.

B

[bialio]

A couple of things to look out for :

If you plan on using Extenders right away, make sure your Server is running windows XP. Vista and Extenders don't play together yet. Running XP, you have to be careful what video card you get - the latest gen ATI and NVIDIA offerings seem to favor Vista. It's a catch 22.

Your planned system in the top post only has 3 tuners - two of those are digital. I have timewarner cable and the HDHomeRun -there aren't a whole lot of channels you will get in clear QAM through your HDHomeRun - so you might consider a dual Analog Tuner instead of the PVR-150. The limitation you will run into with your proposed setup is that only one TV at a time will be able to independently watch live analog TV - which is where you will get the majority of your channels. So if you are watching one analog channel, or recording an analog show, none of the other TV's in the house will have access to live TV except on the few digital channels available from the HDHR.

btl.

[fyodor]

One quick note-many free analog channels (ESPN, USA, etc) are not available via QAM. I can get TNT and ESPN, but not USA. If your hdtv has a tuner,you can check and see which channels are tuneable via QAM(these will have a number-subchannel form, i.e "110-23").

F

[BFisher]

Great feedback, I will need to rethink my setup a little. I thought there would be more channels able to be received via plain cable without a box (if I understand right, that's QAM). Since I've been a DirecTV customer (and DSL for internet) for the last decade, I have no idea what channels are going to be available but it sounds like less than I originally planned. If that's true, no real reason to get rid of Satellite other than the antennae costs for local HD.

Is there an advantage to cable versus satellite assuming I need cable boxes to get the full spectrum of channels?

We rarely watch live TV - we've had DirecTiVo since it's inception and really only watch prerecorded... but I don't want any limitations with my new setup - thanks for the suggestions.

[bialio]

Here's a quick rundown of what to expect with cable - this based on my current setup with TWC in the dallas area.

Channels available without a cable box:

Analog channels - these start at channel 2 and go up to 125, although in practice TWC only uses up into the 70's. This is the Expanded Basic tier of service. Costs about $25 a month probably. USA/FX/Food etc are going to be in this category. Not sure about Speed (it used to be - but I haven't noticed it in the lineup lately) SageTV will get these channels via an Analog tuner - like the PVR-150.

Digital Clear QAM channels - you will probably get all of your locals in digital form - both SD and HD. Discovery HD and TNT HD are likely going to be there also. You might also get a few random unencrypted digital channels. For instance, I got VH1-soul in clear QAM for a while. SageTV will get these via the HDHomeRun.

Channels available with a cable box:
Analog channels - same as above.
Digital channels - depends on the package you get - check TWC websight for details.

---

Personally I just have the expanded basic myself - no cable box. I get all my locals in HD, along with Discovery HD and TNT-HD. It's a very cost effective setup, as long as you are happy with the channels you get.

btl.

[scavenge]

Originally Posted by BFisher

Great feedback, I will need to rethink my setup a little. I thought there would be more channels able to be received via plain cable without a box (if I understand right, that's QAM).

Hi B

My understanding is this:
-Cable carries two types of signal ... analog (all standard def) and digital (=QAM)
-digital comes in several flavors (Standard def, high def, encrypted QAM, clear QAM)

I think the HDHR tuners might be a choice worth rethinking as they only do clear QAM (SD & HD) & OTA HD.

I'm redoing my sage server right now (on a much more meager budget I'm afraid!) and I was looking at HDHR but instead decided to go with the hauppage hvr 1600 tuner card. They're 1/2 the price of HDHR ($80 at circuit city). Each 1600 has an analog tuner and a digital tuner. If you buy the correct model of HVR 1600 the digital tuner can do OTA HD (antenna) and clear QAM (like HDHR). See the following thread regarding clear QAM support for the HVR1600 in Sage which is "coming soon":

Check out this topic about upcoming QAM support on HVR 1600 within Sage

If you were to buy two HVR 1600s this would give you two analog cable tuners and two digital tuners for either HD OTA antenna connections or clear QAM cable connections.

These cards also have s-vhs and stereo audio in ... you could use this to connect to a STB for encrypted SD content (e.g. HBO) but NOT for HD. [i'm not sure whether using the s-vhs in disables the analog tuner ... it might ...]

If you want HD from a STB (i.e. encrypted HD channels like HBO HD) ... there are two options neither of them very rosy:
-somehow finagle a stb with an enabled firewire port from your cable provider and try to set up the very complicated HD over firewire that some people seem to occasionally manage ...
-ditch sage and building your own system and go with an OEM vista media center with HD cablecard support check here ... this is a ludicrously expensive solution and even Anand couldn't get it to work! a whole team of experts try to get cable card htpc working!

Hope that helps.

have fun and when you get stuck (which I'm afraid is nearly inevitable) know that this is one of the best online support communities out there ... you'll always find your answers here.

cheers

P.S. if you go the HVR 1600 route make sure you get the model that does do clear QAM and not the MCE model (see above linked discussion for details)

[BFisher]

Thank you - tons of great information... very helpful!
Bruce

[BFisher]

OK - I've been reading around here like crazy, and think I've compiled my setup... anybody see any issues?

My goals:
- build a server than can last 5-7 years with minimal upgrades (maybe add a harddrive, etc.)
- Use 5 extenders, mix of SD and HD (when available)
- Record as much in HD as possible, and transcode as needed for non-HD TVs
- Share kids DVDs so they can watch their movies on any TV without handling disks
- Eventually add another PC client for theater projector. Watch shows on server or locally (if I add a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray, etc)
- Virtually no limitations on the number of simultaneous recordings/playings (other than just practical use)

Open Items:
- Number and types of Cable channels available without decoder box (currently I have satellite so I can't test cable)
- If not enough available, stick with satellite and add antennae for HD locals.
- Start with 1 HVR-1600 tuner card (1 analog, 1 digital) until I determine my desired input sources
- Vista work with Extenders? Vista better or XP better for a "headless" server? Which version of Vista?
- Worth learning/using RAID? Any real benefit?

Configuration:

Case:	COOLER MASTER Centurion 5
CPU:	Intel E6700
Mobo	Intel BOXDG965WHMKR LGA 775
Ram	(x2) Crucial Ballistix 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 
Harddrives	
          System	HITACHI 0Y30006 160GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
          Recording	(x2) HITACHI Deskstar T7K500 HDT725050VLA360 (0A33437) 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
Power	CORSAIR CMPSU-520HX ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 2.91 520W Power Supply
CPU Cooler	ZALMAN CNPS7000B-Cu LED 92mm 2 Ball Cooling Fan
	Zalman ZM-CS1 Clip (for LGA775)

Thanks for your help! Approx cost is $1200 (through NewEgg)... I'm open to switching parts as needed to hit my goals. My wife is very supportive, and expects this to work very reliably... I'd rather spend another $100 (etc) and have it be more reliable/faster/better/etc. Thanks!

[othy]

One thing that I just ran into with my motherboard--make sure you count the number of pci slots you'll need. I just ran out

It helps if you mobo has onboard sound that is the type/quality you want. My previous mobo has spdif optical out, so I used that. My new motherboard doesn't, so I wasted a pci slot on a sound card.

Just food for thought...

Tim

[BFisher]

Thanks Tim - my plan is for this box to be a dedicated server - not connected to any TVs directly.

Which brings up another thought... I use JRiver Media Center to manage all my music. I assume there is no issue with these products coinciding on the same box. I have 6 zones of music being served by JRiver, and even if I had 3 or 4 zones active (rarely more than 2), the CPU power required is almost nothing... but I will be using a sound card for that.

[Protoman]

I am in the process of upgrading my server. with similar intentions, but different uses. I have client/server setup for ease of use and stability. I keep adding roles to the server and one of the more recent ones was commercial skipping, the next step is commercial removal. I am currently running a 2ghz Opteron with 2GB ram. I have a Happauge 500, and a Happauge USB2 -> STB via USB-UIRT. The reasons for my upgrade is that I am intending on adding more tuners as well as HD . I am waiting for QAM support for the HVR 1800s (PCI-e x1) at which time I will get a pair of them.

I wanted to upgrade for future proofing a bit as well as make a quieter and cooler system.

The system I speced out is as follows:

Chasis: Eagle Tech ET-RM4080-BK Black Steel 4U Server Case (I have a 14U server rack for this...)

Mobo: ASUS P5K DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz LGA 775 Processor
Memory: OCZ Vista Upgrade 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)
CPU Cooler: ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro 92mm CPU Cooler
Misc: OKGEAR AAM1 All Althorn Absorption Wads

Other future upgrades for myself is a pair of ICY DOCK MB454SPF-B Mulit-Bay Backplane Module - Retail and possibly a RAID card (Areca or 3Ware of course). As well as adding more HDDs, but 1.5 TB is enough for now...

****
I went to Newegg, and picked a part your wish list, and modded it to give you more bang for your buck with a little less cost... This is, of course, just my opinion, and I just wanted to throw that out to help, and not hinder.

Great choice on the Mobo, I was about to purchase it myself , but wanted dual gige NICs.

I would recommend going with the Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz LGA 775 Processor as it is nearly the same price as the one you want, plus you get two more cores... Also, change the CPU cooler as well, from what I have read the Artic Cooling Freezer does a good job for this processor, short of watrercooling...

If you have no attachment or preference for HDD makers, I would highly recommend Seagate. (Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3500630AS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive) as they are about $20 cheaper than the Hitachis and Seagate has also been good HDDs for me. I hate WDs they are crap! Long story short, had one for a month and it died...

The only other area that you may or may not tweak (your preference) would be memory. The more the merrier.
****

Thanks,
Protoman

Yay! my first post, in my over three years of using Sage!