The definitive working HD playback configuration thread!

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by fyodor

Let us know how it works, particularly compared to an EVR type program (windows media player). I'll start to think that the overlay setup I have works OK and then I'll watch something with WMP and be saddened by how much better it is.

I ran into some driver issues with getting Vista installed and dual-booting on this client last night. I'm rebuilding a customized Vista install today and I should be able to get it up and running tonight.

Yeah, Sage is definitely the poor cousin when it comes to video playback on Windows. It's not just EVR support under Vista, it's that they keep shipping the same old crappy MPEG decoder that they have been for years now - NO hardware acceleration. If the guys who make these cheap DVD burners for $30 can afford to bundle a decent codec that uses hardware assist, I can't understand why Sage doesn't and make it easily integrated. We have to do all this work to get around problems that they should be solving.

I love Sage, but with a little more exertion by the developers it could be so much better.... And with no HD extender there is no other option but to make PC's act as clients.

Thnx
Mike

[fyodor]

How did the vista upgrade come along? Were you able to get it working with the 2600?

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by fyodor

How did the vista upgrade come along? Were you able to get it working with the 2600?

Still haven't gotten to it yet. The issue is the DVD drive in my system is hooked to a 3132 SATA port via a parallel to serial converter. (I know, I know, why bother with this, but the cabling was neater and the system is in a rackmount case in a rack, and it takes me 30 mins just to dissassemble stuff to gain access) For some reason, the system bios won't let me boot from this drive. :-(

So I got a 4 GB usb flash drive to install vista from (it's a lot faster than installing from DVD - maybe 10-15 mins total for the install), but just when I thought I had it formatted right, the flash drive appears to have failed. It doesn't show up on anything now. I had to go out of town for a few days so I hadn't had a chance to get a replacement drive. Hopefully that will happen today and I'll have some time tonight to set the system up for dual boot.

I wish these silverstone people had real rails available for their racks so I could just slide the stuff out like we do with servers at work. The ears make for good mounting but lousy serviceability.

Thanks,
Mike

[fyodor]

Gotcha. Accessibility is a giant PITA for these things. I kind of miss my blocky, unattractive shuttle case for that reason. I'm thinking when I set up my next place (moving in with GF in near future) I'm just going to run esata and usb cables to drives/hub in some sort of easily accessible, but unobtrusive location, so I have to go into the computer as little as possible.

Along those lines, have you considered just getting a cheap usb dvd drive (or getting an enclosure and sticking an old drive inside?). They also sell cheap adapters that convert IDE/PATA to USB. You just run the cable out through a slot and back into a usb cable.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Still haven't gotten to it yet. The issue is the DVD drive in my system is hooked to a 3132 SATA port via a parallel to serial converter. (I know, I know, why bother with this, but the cabling was neater and the system is in a rackmount case in a rack, and it takes me 30 mins just to dissassemble stuff to gain access) For some reason, the system bios won't let me boot from this drive. :-(

Probably because either the PATA to SATA converter or the Silicon Image SATA controller are incompatible with ATAPI devices. Which it appears the Silicon Image 3132 controller is ATAPI compatible. It may also be a limitation in the BIOS that prevents it from booting from a non-ATA device (i.e. ATAPI CD-ROM) that is not on the primary built-in SATA controller but on the add-on Silicon Image controller.

[Shield]

Originally Posted by mikesm

I ran into some driver issues with getting Vista installed and dual-booting on this client last night. I'm rebuilding a customized Vista install today and I should be able to get it up and running tonight.

Yeah, Sage is definitely the poor cousin when it comes to video playback on Windows. It's not just EVR support under Vista, it's that they keep shipping the same old crappy MPEG decoder that they have been for years now - NO hardware acceleration. If the guys who make these cheap DVD burners for $30 can afford to bundle a decent codec that uses hardware assist, I can't understand why Sage doesn't and make it easily integrated. We have to do all this work to get around problems that they should be solving.

I love Sage, but with a little more exertion by the developers it could be so much better.... And with no HD extender there is no other option but to make PC's act as clients.

Thnx
Mike

Well there are other options to watch HDTV on other TV's in the house. I use a digital audio/component video balun that works over Category 5 cable. I have an Asus 8600GT video card with component out and the digital audio coax plugs into my upstairs receiver. If you can get a cat5 cable from where your SagePC is (and you have a video card with multiple monitor support) then you can do it.
I use a MX-650 URC remote control with a Base MX-250 station to control it all. Works great; 1080p looks amazing.

These baluns are available on www.s-video.com

[hemicuda]

I can almost build a system for the DVI Transceiver pair. Ouch. If I went this route I'd need a new card anyway as mine ain't got the muscle for HD. I'll definitely keep these cat5 devices on my list of options. thanks for the link. maybe I can find something that can let me select between tos (tv) and coax (mvp) signals (probably need an adapter or 2 as well) going to the 5.1. the 5.1 has both inputs but I have to reach behind the center to switch them if I want 5.1 from the tv.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Probably because either the PATA to SATA converter or the Silicon Image SATA controller are incompatible with ATAPI devices. Which it appears the Silicon Image 3132 controller is ATAPI compatible. It may also be a limitation in the BIOS that prevents it from booting from a non-ATA device (i.e. ATAPI CD-ROM) that is not on the primary built-in SATA controller but on the add-on Silicon Image controller.

It's an SI based PATA to SATA converter, so it should work. I just think it's a BIOS issue in supporting boot from the secondary SATA controller.

Fyodor, that's a good idea about hooking up a USB to IDE DVD drive, I do have some parts around that can do just that. For now though, I have a new USB flash drive and will try that route.

No matter how you wire this stuff there is always the need to open this stuff up to make adjustments. I may just go back to shelf mount next time I dissable stuff - the HTPC is HEAVY and removing it by ears takes a lot of strength and I can only do it after eating a lot of spinach for dinner. :-)

I have an extensive CAT5 plant, and I have a rack in my garage which is already full of other stuff (one PC acting as a firewall running pfsense, another PC running Sage Server and Homeseer (plus 3 STB's that Sage records on), another running Trixbox for a VOIP phone system at home, and a NAS server with 3 TB of storage), so I don't have much space to stick more stuff there.

Then you have the issue of remoting IR to the system, having a DVD drive extended over CAT5 so my wife can insert physical media from time to time, and having to push the SPDIF back to my receiver and amp, all on top of the cost of some expensive DVI or HDMI over CAT5 boxes makes me feel like I should just keep the client in the family room rack. :-)

Thx
Mike

[Shield]

Originally Posted by hemicuda

I can almost build a system for the DVI Transceiver pair. Ouch. If I went this route I'd need a new card anyway as mine ain't got the muscle for HD. I'll definitely keep these cat5 devices on my list of options. thanks for the link. maybe I can find something that can let me select between tos (tv) and coax (mvp) signals (probably need an adapter or 2 as well) going to the 5.1. the 5.1 has both inputs but I have to reach behind the center to switch them if I want 5.1 from the tv.

Actually, if you keep your eye on ebay, I found a pair of those transceivers for around $80. What's nice is let's say you have your main setup in the livingroom and the 2nd tv in the bedroom. You and your wife are watching something, so you pause it and shutoff the livingroom tv, and walk into the bedroom and hit "resume". No clients, placeshifters, MVP's, nothing. Of course both tv's have to be set to the same resolution and running in "clone" mode, but I can attest that it does work out really well.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by fyodor

How did the vista upgrade come along? Were you able to get it working with the 2600?

Ok, I got the system dual booted with Vista. The good news is powerdvd playback in very nice, somewhat nicer than in XP. The ATI hardware and processing seems to work very well.

The bad news is that sage under vista is completely hosed in this configuration. VMR9, overlay, FSE etc... none of that stuff matters. In overlay, the tearing is so bad it's completely unwatchable. With VMR9, I get a rendering error and a black screen. Both of these with the cyberlink codec.

With the Sage codec, I just get a black screen. I have the nvidia codec, but at this point since XP seems to work fine, I'm not sure there is any point in trying that, esp given the fact we know it doesn't use all the hardware assist of the 2600pro.

I'm diddling around with a few more things though to see if I can get this to work. I don't understand why I am getting a rendering error when trying to use VMR9 with the cyberlink codec.

I am not sure how they can claim that Sage is supported under Vista given that their own codec doesn't seem to function.

Thanks,
mike

[bialio]

The only codec I've ever had fail in Vista is the ATI codec that is installed with Catalyst Control Center, and that only in VMR9. It actually worked ok in overlay.

Some codecs work well - some not so well. But they have all at least worked in my Vista Business testing (cyberlink, xp nvidia, roxio, sagetv, etc). Both with nvidia (8x00Gx) and the ati 2400Pro.

Do you have UAC turned on or off in your Vista install?

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by bialio

The only codec I've ever had fail in Vista is the ATI codec that is installed with Catalyst Control Center, and that only in VMR9. It actually worked ok in overlay.

Some codecs work well - some not so well. But they have all at least worked (cyberlink, xp nvidia, roxio, sagetv, etc).

Do you have UAC turned on or off in your Vista install?

Turning off UAC was the first thing I did after Vista first booted.

I didn't try the ATI codec in Overlay mode. I'll try that.

Do you actually have the 2400pro working well in Vista? What exact config?

thanks,
mike

[mikesm]

Ok, more developments. So I tried a few other catalyst versions using drivercleaner to help do the binge/purge thing with drivers. 7.7 didn't have too many differences with VMR9, still had a rendering error.

Cat 7.6 though worked. No rendering error, but quality wasn't as good on HD. Solid for SD. For some reason I couldn't bring up the catalyst control panel, so I will try playing with it more today.

Also, changing the driver's adaptive deinterlacing settings matters with the cyberlink decoder. With 7.8, if the setting is vector adaptive only, I get the rendering error. If I set it to be autoselecting, I get a black screen, no error, but audio works fine (with AC3filter).

In the PowerDVD control panel, I have hardware de-interlacing on, but in addition to bob/weave settings, there is a bunch of hex stuff in there that looks like registry stuff. These settings also matter, I gather they are vector adaptive etc..., but that it's not displaying the label properly.

This stuff is so complicated, but for Powerdvd and WMP, it doesn't really matter, it just all works well. For Sage though, changing stuff makes the difference between a decent picture and a rendering error. Why is it doing this?


Thanks,
Mike

[bialio]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Turning off UAC was the first thing I did after Vista first booted.

I didn't try the ATI codec in Overlay mode. I'll try that.

Do you actually have the 2400pro working well in Vista? What exact config?

thanks,
mike

The only time I really felt happy with the 2400pro was when I overclocked it. At stock speeds it just had trouble keeping up sometimes. I sent it back before the driver had time to mature, so it's possible that some of the later breaking optimizations would have helped out some.

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...82&postcount=6 has the details of what I had working for that card.

[ToxMox]

EDIT: I need to keep FSE on for smooth playback.

I just got my 2600XT the other day and it is working great in Vista. I am getting great playback in VMR9 even with FSE off. Works fine with Nvidia, Cyberlink, Sage, and ATI decoders.
Playing 1080i MPEG - CPU usage is around 40-60%

OS: Vista Business 32bit
Graphics hardware: HIS Hightech H260XTQT512DDN-R Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB
Driver used: 7-8-vista32-dd_ccc_wdm_enu_50974.exe from ATI site
Codec used: Sage, Cyberlink 7, Purevideo Decoder, ATI decoder
CPU: Athlon 64 4000+ (2.41Ghz)
RAM: 1GB
Motherboard Chipset: NVIDIA nForce4 SLI
Audio hardware: Onboard SPDIF passthrough
Audio driver: Dunno
Sage configuration: VMR9 on , 3D on, FSE on.
Sage Video Codec selection: any of the above
Sage Audio Codec selection: default
Display resolution: 1920x1080 (1080p)
Display connection: DVI to HDMI
Motherboard: Asus A8N-SLI deluxe

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by ToxMox

I just got my 2600XT the other day and it is working great in Vista. I am getting great playback in VMR9 even with FSE off. Works fine with Nvidia, Cyberlink, Sage, and ATI decoders.
Playing 1080i MPEG - CPU usage is around 40-60%

OS: Vista Business 32bit
Graphics hardware: HIS Hightech H260XTQT512DDN-R Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB
Driver used: 7-8-vista32-dd_ccc_wdm_enu_50974.exe from ATI site
Codec used: Sage, Cyberlink 7, Purevideo Decoder, ATI decoder
CPU: Athlon 64 4000+ (2.41Ghz)
RAM: 1GB
Motherboard Chipset: NVIDIA nForce4 SLI
Audio hardware: Onboard SPDIF passthrough
Audio driver: Dunno
Sage configuration: VMR9 on , 3D on, FSE off.
Sage Video Codec selection: any of the above
Sage Audio Codec selection: default
Display resolution: 1920x1080 (1080p)
Display connection: DVI to HDMI
Motherboard: Asus A8N-SLI deluxe

Interesting. What settings do you use in PowerDVD or the ATI codec that make this all work for you? What catalyst settings for avvivo do you have set? I am having lots of trouble getting this to work at all, and have almost the same config as you do. AMD CPU, Vista 32 Business, 1080p display via DVI-HDMI, etc... What software rev of powerdvd are you using?

Thanks,
mike

[ToxMox]

I didn't do much in the way of settings. Most stuff is default. The one thing I did do was change my filter merits according to that other thread with the long list of stuff to get the same default Graph in graphedit. Maybe that is the missing link for you.

When I play an HD Mpeg in Sage when I go through the sagetvclient_0.txt debug log this is what I see Sage is using:
DShowGraphFilters=Default DirectSound Device,VidRend,Line21 Decoder,AC3Filter,Video Decoder,SageTV MPEG2 Demultiplexer

Play an HD file and find that line in your log to see which filters etc are being used.

[ToxMox]

BTW my graph in graphedit looks like this when I drag an HD MPEG file onto the graphedit window

[ToxMox]

Which AMD CPU are you using? Mine is a single core. Perhaps you have a dual core and could be the big difference. Considering my playback is using up to 60% cpu on a 4000+ single core and a dual core that could translate into more than one core can handle.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by ToxMox

BTW my graph in graphedit looks like this when I drag an HD MPEG file onto the graphedit window

Looks like you are using the purevideo decoder now which doesn't much hardware assist from the 2600. You said earlier that you were using the cyberlink deccoder, was this with powerdvd 7? And it worked fine?

When you said defaults, did you mean not turning on hardware acceleration in the decoder? I think that's the default. Is hardware deinterlacing on in the catalyst avivo control panel? Fully adaptive or vector adaptive?

I found the cyberlink decoder produces the best picture playback, at least in PowerDVD. And I am trying to get that same quality level in Sage.

When you said the ATI codec, you mean the MPEG directshow filter?

Thx
Mike