Sage 7 with HD Extender????

[ybrew]

Originally Posted by jlindborg

I ran across a few reviews that said the GMA 950 just wasn't up to the task for proper HD playback support - I did find a review of the newer GMA 3100 in the SG33G5 that says the 1080p playback is good, although the game benchmarks for it are pretty awful. I don't plan to use it for anything other than Sage playback, though, so that's ok by me.

I guess if you plan to toss a different video card in that box it would work out, although space is tight. I'm keen to get a lower end Duo 2 processor and run everything off the built in mo-bo to keep temps/noise down.

I'm about _this_ close to ordering one up... someone just tell me all the cool kids want one... someone has to fend of this pending recession with some completely unnecessary spending...

I had an sg33g5 for a short period of time.

I got rid of it because the video card I wanted to addin wouldn't work (an 8600GT). The powersupply likely wasn't powerful enough for that card.

Because of that, it wasn't a very good gaming box.
But I used it briefly as a sage extender, with the same 2 gig ram and e6750 proc, and the builtin graphics with HDMI out were great as an extender. The box was very quiet and very capable. I'd recommend getting the VFD (with remote - $80 addon) if you go that route.

And one final piece of advice - and the final nail in the coffin for me returning it - I was unable to flash the bios. I tried to flash before I put in a new upgraded powersupply, in an effort to get the video card working. I read a few reviews of folks having trouble flashing bios' on this box, and I ran into the same problems, even doing it with a bootable CD instead of from within windows (vista). Basically, I bricked my shuttle and didn't want to mess with getting a replacement chip. I just decided to scrap the whole thing and get a more capable video card with it.

But - rather than turn this into a shuttle thread, take a look at sudhian forums for all your shuttle questions.
http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewforum/4/

My bottom line - if you just want an hd extender and don't care about gaming, it's a decent machine. But be VERY careful flashing the bios - and search sudhian before you even attempt it. And don't flash unless you really NEED TO.

[ybrew]

One last thing -

If you do go the shuttle route, look here before ordering other components:

http://hq1.shuttle.com/services_supp...?PCI=19&PI=635

[mikesm]

The Dell optiplex 745 ultra-small form factor system has been a pretty decent client for me. It's pretty small, not macmini or aopen MP965 small, and quiet. It has a 6400 core duo in it and the G965 graphics (the X3000 IGP). Works well. Comes with a local DVD drive too which the HD extender won't.

And you can often find them reasonably inexpensive on the dell outlet store (I got mine for about $400).

Thanks,
Mike

[jlindborg]

Originally Posted by ybrew

One last thing -

If you do go the shuttle route, look here before ordering other components:

http://hq1.shuttle.com/services_supp...?PCI=19&PI=635

thanks for the helpful links! I just spent the last hour slogging through a bunch of threads - when all is said and done I think I'm going to drag my AOpen cube out and see if I can shove a GT fanless video card in there and make it fly for HD, at least for a while - looks like I'll have to just keep the case off since there's no room for the heat sink on my fanless card in there! Oh well - it wont look pretty but I think it'll work for a while at any rate. Not quite ready to pull the trigger on $500 for a single purpose client like that. I might be after banging heads with the AOpen box for a while though...

[jlindborg]

Originally Posted by mikesm

The Dell optiplex 745 ultra-small form factor system has been a pretty decent client for me. It's pretty small, not macmini or aopen MP965 small, and quiet. It has a 6400 core duo in it and the G965 graphics (the X3000 IGP). Works well. Comes with a local DVD drive too which the HD extender won't.

And you can often find them reasonably inexpensive on the dell outlet store (I got mine for about $400).

Thanks,
Mike

Are you pushing 1080p with the GMA 3000? Man - new you're looking at $800+ when its all said and done after you get a decent CPU in there. Yowza - I'd have to get lucky with a rebuilt return or something.

[Fluffdaddy]

Originally Posted by Enormous

I was so disappointed that there wasn't an HD extender mentioned with the 6.2 release that I haven't even downloaded it yet. I'm in the same situation as a lot of you, in that my current client can't do HD, and I'm wondering if I should get a 7600GT (stuck with AGP), wait for the 8x00 series to hit AGP, or wait for the never-seen extender.

I tried that road with my last "HD" AGP based client (7600GT) it just was not up to the tasked. I ended up biting the bullet and getting a PCI Express x16 based motherboard and a GeForce 8500GT 512MB card................I'm happy with its HD performance. Believe me I did not wish to make that move $$$$, but I could not wait any longer for sage's HD Extender.
Sage's loss is Newegg's gain

be advised: My AGP unit was a lowly AMD 2800 XP cpu.

[Enormous]

Originally Posted by Fluffdaddy

I tried that road with my last "HD" AGP based client (7600GT) it just was not up to the tasked. I ended up biting the bullet and getting a PCI Express x16 based motherboard and a GeForce 8500GT 512MB card................I'm happy with its HD performance. Believe me I did not wish to make that move $$$$, but I could not wait any longer for sage's HD Extender.
Sage's loss is Newegg's gain

be advised: My AGP unit was a lowly AMD 2800 XP cpu.

It sounds like our setups are pretty similar. Mine CPU is also a 2800+.

Thanks for the tip on the 7600GT. Now it's a waiting game either way (HD extender or 8x000 AGP card) because there's no way I'm getting wife buy in to purchase yet another motherboard! An extender would be a much easier sell.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by jlindborg

Are you pushing 1080p with the GMA 3000? Man - new you're looking at $800+ when its all said and done after you get a decent CPU in there. Yowza - I'd have to get lucky with a rebuilt return or something.

The $400 price included the CPU. It was a full system, 1 GB mem, XP Pro, DVD burner, 80 GB hard drive, and the IGP graphics. All included, with mouse and keyboard no less.

Inventory varies, but right now for example, you can get this: http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineS...=28&l=en&s=dfb

6300 CPU, 2 GB RAM, 80 GB HD, DVD/RW drive, XP Home (all with GBe) for $439.

Or this: http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineS...=28&l=en&s=dfb

6300 CPU, 1 GB RAM, 250 GB HD, DVD/CDRW, XP pro for $409.

All ultra small forum factor, all with Gigabit ethernet. They are listed as refrub, but are often cancelled orders, etc... I've ordered several systems like these and all looked brand new.

If you want a compact Intel system, it's VERY hard to beat Dell outlet.

Thanks,
Mike

[nielm]

Originally Posted by malbec

You know, I really, really, really, truly do not mean to look the gift horse in the mouth. However, I was hoping against hope that when the 6.2 release candidate was released as final, the announcement would read "Version 7 is now released with HD extender support."

With the end of third quarter now approaching, I don't suppose there is any chance to knock the words "Yup, we are making progress" out of someone "in the know?" Please?

What do we know so far...

• A low-cost plug'n'play HD extender is important to Sage's market, and therefore to Sage, so one will come eventually.
  
• Sage demo'd a HD extender at CES in Jan. We have no idea how stable that system was, or what the hardware was, or how ready to ship that hardware was.
  
• We know that Sage's server core supports extenders of various types (placeshifter, MVP), so the changes to the server core are likely to be minimal.
  
• We also know that every single time that Sage has mentioned a release date, they have missed it, and have been raked over the coals in these forums for doing so
  (missing release dates is of course not uncommon in the SW industry: Everyone misses release dates, and some (vista) even when they are reducing functionality in order to meet them. There are also projects like Duke Nukem Forever, first announced in 1997, that have become an industry joke!)

So, What can we assume?

• That the hardware originally demo'd at CES might be having some problems (either stability or availablity) preventing it's release. These are likely to be hardware problems because SW problems are always fixable 'in the field'.
  
• That Sage must still be working on a HD extender, and yes, they are likely to be making progress...
  
• ...And that it will only be announced when it is ready.

And finally, a small comment to the people in various posts who are telling sage to quit messing around with the UI and apply the resources to the HD extender instead... Read the Mythical Man Month, and you will learn that "Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later."
The skills involved with UI development are completely different those that are probably required for extender core development (likely to be some kind of embedded OS on custom hardware)...

Disclaimer: This post is full of assumptions and guesswork. I have no special knowledge on the status of the HD extender

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by nielm

So, What can we assume?

I would add the following assumptions:

• Sage, as a software company, is certainly not engineering and manufacturing the HD extender themselves. So their release schedule is at the mercy of their hardware development partner.
  
• Their contract with their hardware partner probably includes a non-disclosure clause that limits what they can say publicly before release.

These are just my guesses; I have no inside knowledge. But they seem like reasonable guesses to me.

[zoso]

The delays don't bother me too much, nor does not having a release schedule. What does bother me is being given a release schedule and then never given an update. When they realized Q2 was not possible a simple "We are not going to make our original estimate and can not give any further information as to when it may be released" would have been appreciated.

Instead, jokes are made (prior to June) about how the development team is testing them in their own setups and how good it looks. This is not a good way to deal with customers.

[visiontim]

Originally Posted by jlindborg

Hmmm... I'm eyeing the XPC Shuttle: http://hq1.shuttle.com/products_page...LLI=551&PI=635

Can't find many reviews from folks using it to push 1080p content, though...

I liked both of my Shuttles when they were running, only one with SageTV in SD though. The problem is that they both "broke". Cooling was sufficient, CPU fine, PSU flaky (a problem with them) and they just stopped working. One screwed up Windows so badly that I had to reformat and start from scratch. Then it broke.

I love the form factor but would never go with a Shuttle again after my experiences with them.

[flavius]

Originally Posted by reggie14

What would you switch Sage for? BeyondTV doesn't have an HD extender, and I'm pretty sure their SD extender support isn't as good as Sage's. MCE has the Xbox, but my understanding is its somewhat crippled in what it will play back. I like MCE for the most part, but I probably wouldn't even consider switching unless MS makes a software extender.

You've been with Sage long enough to know its pretty silly to stick with Sage only because your waiting for some new feature or device. There's no way to know when Sage will release things. If you're happy with Sage in its current state, stick with Sage. If there's something better right now, switch. That's really all you can do.

I do, however, share your frustration. My opinion of Sage as a company is damaged not by the fact that product releases seem to always come late, but by their complete refusal to talk about them. While Sage didn't do an official announcement of the HD extender, they did say they expected a release in Q3 (or was it Q2?). That time has come and gone without a word from Sage. If Sage was a major company, they'd probably be forced to make some sort of statement or you'd just expect news would leak out anyway.

I haven't been with Sage that long, only 2.5 years or so. Before that I was active in the BTV community for roughly as long. I'm an engineer. I used to know BTV quite well - and unless snapstream has re-written it - you're safe to say that BTV is no alternative.

Most importantly, - and I have spending money on this stuff for more than seven years now - it has long left the phase of experimentation, at least in the eyes of my family, and rightfully so.

There are appliance-grade devices out there, even for HD.

I bought my first HD TV more than two years ago, and initially I had some nice looking 'HTPC' close to the plasma, running Sage. Well, now I have eight machines for five family members to maintain. How did that happen? Putting in more MAC's helps a lot, though.

Now we are using almost exclusively MVP's for viewing. That kind of works. But what about HD?

Your mileage will probably vary. I might go TiVo again soon. They have finally come to their senses and and came up with a pretty interesting device which is priced just right - and features usability that Sage can only dream of.

Well. I could continue squeezing my favorite stuff in HD through my MVP's (just kidding) to watch it on a HD tv-set.

Or I could to something else.

[SHS]

If there is Sage HD Extender my guest would be that it will build a round a real hardware dedicated decoder like something from Sigma Design, ST Micro electronics, etc, etc I'm pettey sure it not going to be base a round any type of PC design my guest it going to be base a round dedicated set top box design.

[CollinR]

Or the Broadcom decoder!

[ybrew]

My problem with TiVo is twofold.

1) Cost. Box required at each TV I watch. I have 5 TVs connected to sage. 4 with MVPs and 1 with an HTPC. Getting 5 TiVos, PLUS monthly service on each TiVo would be expensive.

2) With 5 TiVos, assuming each is a dual tuner, that gives me 10 tuners, but I'd still have to manage each one separately, being careful what I record on each box to make sure I record everything I need recorded. I could easily get by with 5 tuners (I need 5 though) but I don't know if I'll watch my favorite show in the family room, or the media room, or even the bedroom. And is my son gonna want to watch his shows in his bedroom, our bedroom, the family room, or the media room?

I went to sage to get rid of monthly fees and the ridiculously high price of admission. Granted, I've spent a fair amount on sage (hardware costs of server and HTPC, MVPs, tuners, licences) but I didn't need to do it all at once and I can very easily add more disk space if needed.

But I was also looking for a single repository of all my media - TV being the most important, but audio, my kid's movies and even some of my movies as well.

Most of my movies I watch in my media room, but one recent exception - I was watching an episode of Heroes from Season 1. I started watching in the family room, until my family got home, and turned it off. I tried to finish watching it in my bedroom that night, but got interrupted by my son. I finished watching it last night in my media room. Same media streamed in 3 different rooms with a very simple to use interface.

Maybe TiVo does allow you to share recordings nowadays. I'm not really sure since I haven't kept up with their offerings for awhile. Prior to Sage, I was using DirecTiVos. But even if I could share between TiVos, does it give you a single "Now Playing list" combining all of your recordings? Can you manage new recordings/favorites/season passes from a single interface or are you required to go to each machine and setup recordings?

I used to have 4 directivos, and it was a pain keeping track of what recorded where. I'd have to tell my wife - no, we have to watch that show in the bedroom.

There have been several HD extender options listed here. Dell refurbs are probably the best bet for most folks. They're small, quiet, and powerful enough for the task. Or you can continue to wait.

I recorded 5 1/2 hours of HD yesterday and have 12 more hours of HD recordings scheduled for the rest of this week. I couldn't be happier with my setup.

[SHS]

There have been several HD extender options listed here. Dell refurbs are probably the best bet for most folks. They're small, quiet, and powerful enough for the task. Or you can continue to wait.

Real hardware dedicated decoder are far more powerful then any of thoses so call several HD extender options that where listed here which are all base a round a PC design which used soft codec which dosen't even come close to dedicated hardware decoder.
If you had Sigma Design Xcard you know what I mean no video stutter what so ever even with very low end system with dedicated hardware decoder the main reason why that is, is becuase of error correcting because of its real time nature must deal with these errors corrupted data. The error can be handled using realtime forward error correction in the concealment techniques in the decoder.

Yes CollinR it possable that one to.

[ybrew]

Originally Posted by SHS

Real hardware dedicated decoder are far more powerful then any of thoses so call several HD extender options that where listed here which are all base a round a PC design which used soft codec which dosen't even come close to dedicated hardware decoder.
If you had Sigma Design Xcard you know what I mean no video stutter what so ever even with very low end system with dedicated hardware decoder the main reason why that is, is becuase of error correcting because of its real time nature must deal with these errors corrupted data. The error can be handled using realtime forward error correction in the concealment techniques in the decoder.

Yes CollinR it possable that one to.

More powerful? Sure. I'll buy that.
However, i get no stutter with my HTPC (2 gig ram, e6750, Nvidia 8800GTS)
Nor did I get any stutter with my shuttle xpc (2 gig ram, e6750, onboard intel graphics)
I don't really get any stutter either with my core2duo laptop with 1 gig ram and onboard graphics. Well, I do get stutter if I use it wireless, but when i'm using wired ethernet, it's pretty stutter free.

I won't argue that an HD extender wouldn't be better. But an HD extender isn't here yet and there are many alternatives that would be more than adequate for now without a huge outlay of money (those dell refurbs).

[jlindborg]

Originally Posted by visiontim

I liked both of my Shuttles when they were running, only one with SageTV in SD though. The problem is that they both "broke". Cooling was sufficient, CPU fine, PSU flaky (a problem with them) and they just stopped working. One screwed up Windows so badly that I had to reformat and start from scratch. Then it broke.

I love the form factor but would never go with a Shuttle again after my experiences with them.

Yeah, crusing the forums I see a number of folks complaining about the power supplies - both going bad and starting to make noise over time. Think I'll keep my money in my pocket for the time being. I took the cover off my AOpen box and crammed an NVidea fanless card in there - it looks terrible on the shelf but works ok for now.

[bialio]

Official word : http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=27530