HD Component capture with H.264 Encode

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by bialio

You are quite correct. 1/2 the resolution is 1/4 the pixels.

edit - just to keep the thread from going too far off topic - ICT is not implemented yet, so capturing full res HDM should be possible with this device. The real question is how much image quality are we loosing with the compression.

We're getting down to arguing semantics here, 1/2 height, and 1/2 width is 1/4 resolution by my math.

As far as quality goes: the avsforum thread says an HD-DVD movie encoded @ 9mps looked "good". In my own experience (and this is doing 2 pass software encodes w/ mencoder @ around the equivalent of h.264 high profile), about 5 mbps is needed to make really transparent (meaning you cant see the difference between the source and encode) in 720p. I don't do 1080 line encodes (I downscale).

Since this device has only 1 pass to transcode the video it wont be as effecient. My guess is 6mbps should look quite good if 720p is acceptable. That works out to a little under 2 GB an hour. If theres a program out there that can edit out commercials from an h.264 stream (VideoRedo promises to do so soon), that would be 1.5 GB/hr per 42 min show. Acceptable to me.

Originally Posted by jrog

The wikipedia entry indicates that Hollywood has agreed to not implement this until 2012, and it only exists in High Definition discs, not in Cable Boxes or Satellite Provider boxes. For the purpose of SageTV, I don't think this is something that will need to be worried about for many years, and as such is a welcomed product in the lineup. There may be a situation where certain channels could implement the ICT, such as HBO, where you wouldn't be able to record at full 1080i, but I see that as being highly unlikely.

I would fully expect that date (2012) to be moved up with a device like this on the market. But you're right, ICT is a Blu-ray/HD-DVD scheme only, it shouldn't affect analog output from cable/sat boxes.

[fyodor]

Well, not just the compression, but the double conversion between analog and digital. Maybe this type of conversion has gotten better but I remember it being an issue back in the day when I had a digital cable box connected to my ReplayTV.

Originally Posted by bialio

You are quite correct. 1/2 the resolution is 1/4 the pixels.

edit - just to keep the thread from going too far off topic - ICT is not implemented yet, so capturing full res HDM should be possible with this device. The real question is how much image quality are we loosing with the compression.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by fyodor

Well, not just the compression, but the double conversion between analog and digital. Maybe this type of conversion has gotten better but I remember it being an issue back in the day when I had a digital cable box connected to my ReplayTV.

I have two digital cable boxes hooked up to my SageTV server via S-video into my two PVR 150's. Certainly it doesn't look as good as when the cable boxes are connected directly to the TV but it looks pretty dang good. Certainly better than when I use the built-in tuners on the 150's. I have lots of space so I set the record quality to DVD Standard Play. Despite being converted to analog and back to digital it still looks excellent to me.

[bialio]

Same here - in a previous life when I was using Tivo I had a cable box s-video input going into my Series3 - picture quality was a few steps up from normal NTSC tuners that had access to the same feed.

btl.

[korben_dallas]

Hey Stanger,

Still want to lobby for MPEG-2?

[peternm22]

Looks like it includes an IR blaster:

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...38&newsLang=en

[Chilli]

Sage HD-PVR would be pretty self-explanatory and easy to remember.

[thomaszoo]

I know this is not exactly the same product, but it does appear to be along the same lines:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Discussed here:
http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ad.php?t=29688

These are here today (for $300 - $350). I would like to see support for these, too.

Wayne

[ybrew]

Originally Posted by peternm22

Looks like it includes an IR blaster:

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...38&newsLang=en

So it obviously sounds like Sage will support this. I'm really curious if there will be a limit to the number supported.
And I'm also curious if the IR blaster could be used instead of the USB-UIRT. Especially if I go more than 3 DTV Receivers.

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by thomaszoo

I know this is not exactly the same product, but it does appear to be along the same lines:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Discussed here:
http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ad.php?t=29688

These are here today (for $300 - $350). I would like to see support for these, too.

Wayne

No it really isn't the same product. The blackmagic card has no hardware encoder. It's simply taking in a raw uncompressed (REALLY BIG like 10 GB/MINUTE ) stream. With d-show filters it can be compressed in software, and there was a thread here somewhere that it can work with Sage, so it actually is supported.

The amazing thing to me is the price of this hauppauge HD device. For $250 its doing much more than the blackmagic card does for over $300.

[sleonard]

I'm hoping the IR blasters can use wired emitters and that more than one can be used with Sage. For example, I have 3 cable boxes that all use the same IR codes. I would want 3 of the HD PVR's connected via component/spdif to 3 cable boxes. In order to do so each PVR would have to control only it's own respective box using a wired emitter to avoid changing the channel on one of the other boxes.

What I don't want is the IR blasters to work like the current crop of Hauppage PVR IR blasters where Sage is able to utilize the blaster on only one of the PVR's and will work with multiple boxes only if those boxes can be made to use different IR code sets.

One HD-PVR, one set-top box, three connections - video, audio, and wired IR. Zero conflicts with other boxes.

If not, I hope I can continue to use my USB-UIRT as I do now.

S

edited almost immediately to increase clarity in a couple of sentences (I hope)

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by bialio

By mangled, I mean that you don't get the full resolution - it's been softened. 1/2 of the pixels are removed (scaled to half it size) - and then that 1/2 size image is scaled back up to 1080. I think mangled describes it well.

Sorry, but this is wrong, (not what you're describing here), the image is only downressed over component if the disc is authored with ICT set. To date, I don't believe any discs have the token set, as such, you get full resolution over component.

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

Hey Stanger,

Still want to lobby for MPEG-2?

I never really lobbied for MPEG-2 other than as an acceptable solution, I'll take H.264 if they've got it of course

Originally Posted by thomaszoo

I know this is not exactly the same product, but it does appear to be along the same lines:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Discussed here:
http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ad.php?t=29688

These are here today (for $300 - $350). I would like to see support for these, too.

Wayne

Yeah, but those really aren't even in the same, um can't think of a word, "ballpark"? That's a profession video production card that relies on the host CPU/software for compression, and requires a good bit of "hacking" to be useable for PVR-ing. I think you'd have significant difficulty getting two of them going in a system.

The Hauppauge or theoretical Sage device are tailor made for PVR-ing on the PC, complete with Hardware encoder, just "plug and play". Should be trivial to get two of these working in a system, or more.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by sleonard

I'm hoping the IR blasters can use wired emitters and that more than one can be used with Sage. For example, I have 3 cable boxes that all use the same IR codes. I would want 3 of the HD PVR's connected via component/spdif to 3 cable boxes. In order to do so each PVR would have to control only it's own respective box using a wired emitter to avoid changing the channel on one of the other boxes.

What I don't want is the IR blasters to work like the current crop of Hauppage PVR IR blasters where Sage is able to utilize the blaster on only one of the PVR's and will work with multiple boxes only if those boxes can be made to use different IR code sets.

You may have to somehow block the boxes from each other (i.e. put a towel over them or something) so that the IR codes don't interfere. This shouldn't be too much of an issue although it would make it harder to keep an eye on them to make sure that power is on, etc.

[bialio]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Sorry, but this is wrong, (not what you're describing here), the image is only downressed over component if the disc is authored with ICT set. To date, I don't believe any discs have the token set, as such, you get full resolution over component.

I think we had established that already

[MrD]

Originally Posted by mikesm

The primary purpose of this card is to act as a tuner for HD Cable and DBS STB's, not to copy HD-DVD and BR media. There are better approaches to solving that problem.

I only mentioned it, because source thread claimed the product was being demoed with an HD-DVD player.

Their demo showed part of a HD DVD movie that they ripped to the computer.

[korben_dallas]

Man I have to say this almost came too late. As much as I love SageTV and the flexibility/portability it gives me with my recordings, I really don't need more than two tuners, and the dual HD tuner STB's were starting to get very very tempting.

This is like a shot of adrenaline!

I wonder if VideoRedo or other affordable editing package will be able to edit the mpeg-4 (mp4? avi?) files this unit creates? How about editing the BD-capable files?

[QueOnda]

Originally Posted by peternm22

Looks like it includes an IR blaster:

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...38&newsLang=en

That's cool and all but what will it do with the sound and what are the connections to the sound? I don't want to lose AC3.

[otakucode]

If we're not being jerked around, and we're not being misled to believe that such a device is more than it actually is, then such a device would be PHENOMENALLY GREAT!

What do I mean? Well, sorry for my pessimism about this, but I've been paying attention the past 5 years or so. ATI offers (or perhaps offered... or maybe just planned to offer... don't know if this is or ever was really sold, I am sure it didn't sell WELL at all) a card that will record from digital cable in full HD, every channel you receive with your service! It even takes a CableCARD! But the devil is in the details. To gain the certification to create such a device, ATI can only sell the card as part of a complete computer system. That complete computer system has to comply with a plethora of DRM requirements. You can't alter ANY of the hardware, no adding a bigger hard drive or upgrading your processor, nothing. Doing so will disable your capture card device.

So I've read what you propose in this post, and I've read the press release about the Hauppauge "HD PVR". Here is what I notice that I have *NOT* read:

I have NOT read that this device will be available as an internal card.
I have NOT read that the video this device records will be "portable" in the sense that it could be piped over extenders or played from other computers on your own personal network.
I have NOT read that the device will output through the operating system... ie it could have its own video output ports, displaying on the PC screen via a DVI passthrough or something of that nature.

The technology has been around for years. Chips available as low as $15/ea (for small quantities even) from Motorola that could encode 1080i content from a component video source into h264 video. Why hasn't it been done before? People would kill for such a device! The reason it hasn't been done is because the cable and satellite companies would sue the company creating it into oblivion unless they agreed to some powerfully draconian DRM schemes.

Please tell me I'm just being paranoid and this device will really record component video to an AVI file containing standard h264 MPEG-4 video with no DRM. Please tell me that it will somehow get around the macrovision copy protection that I am fairly certain all cable and satellite boxes degrade their image quality with.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by bialio

I think we had established that already

Sorry, must have missed that, the thread seemed to be going under the assumption that HD DVD/BD's were currently being downressed over component, not theoretically at some point in the future.

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

Man I have to say this almost came too late. As much as I love SageTV and the flexibility/portability it gives me with my recordings, I really don't need more than two tuners, and the dual HD tuner STB's were starting to get very very tempting.

You always watch your recordings in the same room? Only watch them in one? Those are the two reasons I don't have a Dish Network DVR.

[mattdcknsn]

I agree with your concerns but also look at the company making the card. I think that from what I have read it is a Hauppauge USB device.

I dont think Hauppauge has created a PVR card that includes any DRM (I might be wrong but don't think so). All of their capture cards have been VERY good in my opinion, its the reason I got started in this money pit of a hobby. All of their devices so far have been clean, concise and (almost) exactly what consumers want.

I think alot of people now want a USB device so an internal PCI or PCI-e device would be nice BUT I'll take what I can get at this point.

I am eagerly awaiting what comes of this.

Originally Posted by otakucode

If we're not being jerked around, and we're not being misled to believe that such a device is more than it actually is, then such a device would be PHENOMENALLY GREAT!

What do I mean? Well, sorry for my pessimism about this, but I've been paying attention the past 5 years or so. ATI offers (or perhaps offered... or maybe just planned to offer... don't know if this is or ever was really sold, I am sure it didn't sell WELL at all) a card that will record from digital cable in full HD, every channel you receive with your service! It even takes a CableCARD! But the devil is in the details. To gain the certification to create such a device, ATI can only sell the card as part of a complete computer system. That complete computer system has to comply with a plethora of DRM requirements. You can't alter ANY of the hardware, no adding a bigger hard drive or upgrading your processor, nothing. Doing so will disable your capture card device.

So I've read what you propose in this post, and I've read the press release about the Hauppauge "HD PVR". Here is what I notice that I have *NOT* read:

I have NOT read that this device will be available as an internal card.
I have NOT read that the video this device records will be "portable" in the sense that it could be piped over extenders or played from other computers on your own personal network.
I have NOT read that the device will output through the operating system... ie it could have its own video output ports, displaying on the PC screen via a DVI passthrough or something of that nature.

The technology has been around for years. Chips available as low as $15/ea (for small quantities even) from Motorola that could encode 1080i content from a component video source into h264 video. Why hasn't it been done before? People would kill for such a device! The reason it hasn't been done is because the cable and satellite companies would sue the company creating it into oblivion unless they agreed to some powerfully draconian DRM schemes.

Please tell me I'm just being paranoid and this device will really record component video to an AVI file containing standard h264 MPEG-4 video with no DRM. Please tell me that it will somehow get around the macrovision copy protection that I am fairly certain all cable and satellite boxes degrade their image quality with.