SageTV vs. Vista Media Center

[Brent]

Any of you who have followed my posts around here know I'm sold on SageTV. I've delved into SageTV with both feet and love it.

I'm trying to give some advice to a person who uses TIVO right now and is considering a switch to Vista Media Center. I'm trying to add SageTV to the conversation just so he doesn't blanket ignore an excellent alternative. If this person were to switch to SageTV, it would be a very good thing for SageTV as he does a lot of blog writing that is well-read. That being said, I want him to make the decision based on his needs.

I can tell him all kinds of good things (and some bad things) about SageTV, but my knowledge of Vista Media Center is fairly light. Can anyone give me some help on objective pros and cons of Vista Media Center compared to SageTV - keeping in mind this is coming from a person with TIVO?

Here's my main points (tell me if I'm on the mark and what I'm missing):

• The SageTV HDExtender handles all media formats, can view ripped DVDs (VMC can’t as far as I know) and is cheaper.
• Vista Media Center uses a proprietary format to record. This format includes DRM which can cause issues - I’ll let Chris get into that as he has more experience with it - maybe it’s not a big deal after you get used to it.
• You can make your own “extender” using SageTV Client. Microsoft had promised they would come out with this and called it “Softsled”, but backed off of that promise a long time ago and we haven’t seen anything since. I have on server that has all of the tuner cards and hard drives in it that runs everything. Then I have a smaller HTPC that is quiet and fits in with the AV equip that actually runs the playback. It’s just an extra layer of flexibility.
• SageTV is not dependent on any one OS. You can run it on Windows, Mac or Linux.
• SageTV has much faster turnaround of beta cycles and is adding improvements, bug fixes and new features much more often than MS or Snapstream does.
• Vista Media Center (if you buy it pre-packaged this way) has CableCard. Even with CableCard's warts, I know this is a huge advantage VMC has over the competition although this could be changing soon with the Hauppauge HD-PVR device (crossing fingers and toes for luck here)

Feel free to criticize either program. I know I'll be getting a more SageTV-centric crowd here and thats fine, but any advantages you know of from Vista Media Center would be helpful to help in his decision as well. Thanks!

[LehighBri]

I've personally switched back and forth between Vista MCE and SageTV based on my ever changing needs. Here's my perspective Brent (I will update my post as I think of more):

• Playback on Vista Media Center seems much more responsive and smooth than SageTV (with very powerful hardware, I still can't get SageTV to run smooth in VMR9 so I've resorted to Overlay)
• Vista Media Center has a nice Sports Lounge feature that shows a "real-time" scoreboard of sports that you can click on and either read more about or even tune directly to that channel (I really wish Sage had something like this!)
• SageTV easily supports >2 total tuners out of the box. I believe Vista Media Center only supports 2 but may support more with some crazy registry hacking.
• SageTV supports Online Services such as Youtube and podcasting out of the box

[davi323]

Vista Media Center doesn't natively support QAM. Until it can support QAM FULLY, (not just with the HD Homerun) it simply can't match SageTV for me, as I rely on QAM for all my HD programming.

[jelwood]

I was a long time WMC user and helped develop some of the code for the DVRMSToolBox project. DVRMSToolBox is the application that Windows Media Center users use for skipping commercials and format conversions (convert to Xvid, H.264, etc). I recently left WMC for Sage and haven't regretted it once (even though I left a lot of my code and friends behind). Below is a post from when I switched to Sage (if he follows the link to the forums post he can see my reasons for using Sage over WMC).

http://babgvant.com/blogs/andyvt/arc...ospective.aspx


Also, Babgvant the main developer for DVRMSToolBox had his own post on the subject.
http://babgvant.com/blogs/andyvt/arc...orm_3F00_.aspx

Also, the strongest argument I've seen for people using WMC over Sage is the GUI and loosing the My Movies plug in. Personally, SageMC has been a great replacement for me. I've posted in the SageMC forum two things that I miss about My Movies, but overall SageMC has done things equally well or better than My Movies. And, I find the GUI work the SageMC developers are doing right now to be simply amazing...

[mayamaniac]

Depends on what his needs are, if basic PVR, then any of the popular PVR softwares will do, and even Tivo. If he wants something with endless customizations and expandability, then SageTV is the solution for him.

[DOS64K]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Depends on what his needs are, if basic PVR, then any of the popular PVR softwares will do, and even Tivo. If he wants something with endless customizations and expandability, then SageTV is the solution for him.

This is what I believe separates Sage from VMC. For most folks dipping their toes in the PVR waters for the first time, VMC tends to work "out of the box" for most of them. There's a certain "wow" factor when they discover things they didn't know could be done before.

But once they get over that initial buzz and begin expanding their media horizons, they realize that VMC just has too many limitations and not enough update cycles. Sure there are third party plugins and such, but they are hampered by the same DRM and other issues that handcuff VMC.

As a MCE/VMC convert, I've found Sage to have much better vendor support, user support, developement support, extender support (bows before his HD100), and now, GUI customization. The more I work with it, the more I like it. I think your friend will too.

[lobosrul]

Jelwood:

This is a bit off-topic, but if theres anyway you can port the haali splitter controls to Sage (maybe it was part of DVRMSToolbox I'm not sure), I'd be extremely grateful.

[Polypro]

MCE 2004 is what came on a computer I bought back in the day...it's what caused me to both love the HTPC hobby, and seek out what ended up being SageTV. When Vista was available, I was going to use VMC as a psuedo network encoder...it was free after all. On a fresh install it wouldn't even start up. Welcome jelwood, very articulate posts you linked to, glad to have you around.

P

Edit: I have zero problems with anything in Sage.

[Sparhawk6]

Originally Posted by Brent

[*]Vista Media Center (if you buy it pre-packaged this way) has CableCard. Even with CableCard's warts, I know this is a huge advantage VMC has over the competition although this could be changing soon with the Hauppauge HD-PVR device (crossing fingers and toes for luck here)[/LIST]Feel free to criticize either program. I know I'll be getting a more SageTV-centric crowd here and thats fine, but any advantages you know of from Vista Media Center would be helpful to help in his decision as well. Thanks!

As per that last point, I was wondering - why doesn't Sage support the ATI card that has a cablecard port? I know you can only buy one if you buy a branded PVR box, but even if we were to get out hands on it, we can't use it because it isn't supported by Sage. Why not?

[jelwood]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

Jelwood:

This is a bit off-topic, but if theres anyway you can port the haali splitter controls to Sage (maybe it was part of DVRMSToolbox I'm not sure), I'd be extremely grateful.

We should probably start a new post for this topic. However, what are you looking to do with the haali splitter? If I can help I would be glad to do it. However, one of the BIG advantages of Sage over MCE is you can use so many standard utilities, since Sage doesn't use the insane DVR-MS container we don't need specialized tools (I been able to do everything I've wanted with standard ffmpeg or Mencoder).

Anyway, let me know what you are trying to do and I'll see if I an help.

[waltc]

I love my Sage, it's been working well for me the past 2 years now.

I'm going to build a new HD HTPC and retire my old pc (getting ready to watch/record HD shows) and am wondering:
Can I install Vista and VistaMC AND SageTV?
Should I just install to Vista and SageTV?
Or just install XP and SageTV?

My new HD HTPC setup is only going to be used to watch/record SageTV and play Blu-Ray discs with occasional internet access.

I'm using this link and most of the components for my setup:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2186980,00.asp

Any advise is welcomed.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by Sparhawk6

As per that last point, I was wondering - why doesn't Sage support the ATI card that has a cablecard port? I know you can only buy one if you buy a branded PVR box, but even if we were to get out hands on it, we can't use it because it isn't supported by Sage. Why not?

Because it requires all the DRM handshakes in order to work and currently Sage does not have support for DRM and after all the reviews I read about the ATI cable card adapter (at least early on), the thing is too much of a headache to even bother. The Hauppauge solution coming out soon that takes advantage of the "analog hole", is a much simpler solution. Unfortunately it does mean that a digital signal comes in, gets converted to analog and then back to digital....

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by jelwood

We should probably start a new post for this topic. However, what are you looking to do with the haali splitter? If I can help I would be glad to do it. However, one of the BIG advantages of Sage over MCE is you can use so many standard utilities, since Sage doesn't use the insane DVR-MS container we don't need specialized tools (I been able to do everything I've wanted with standard ffmpeg or Mencoder).

Anyway, let me know what you are trying to do and I'll see if I an help.

I meant something like this: http://damienbt.free.fr/ for sage. It lets the user control haali media splitter from within MCE to change subtitles and audio streams (and a lot more but thats mostly what I'm interested in). If haali could be called from command line or take "sendmessages" it would be trivial to do this... but it doesn't.

[PLUCKYHD]

I am going to through my 2 cents out there. I am a long time media center user and play with sage currently but haven't gotten my hands on a hd-extender yet. My mine reasons for wanting to stay with VMC are as follows:

1> I currently have 2 ati digital cable tuners and love getting all of my HD into my pc worry free. I know they have their issues but this was the only solution that quit frankly worked currently.
2> the upcoming Directv tuner I believe will only be supported by media center same as cable card.
3> the interface is just slicker and the extenders just flat work I have a analog extender for sagetv and never could get it glitch free. I hear sp1 fixes allot of the issues with it but haven't tried yet.
4> My movies is a much better interface in my opinion than sagetv videos section

Okay so I tossed my side out there I realize the haupaugge tuners are coming but I don't expect to be able to run more than 2 of those at a time without overload I could be wrong. I also love that sagetv supports dvd natively and am still shocked to this day that media center doesn't.

[mohanman]

Just curious.. how many times does your vista media center crash? How many times do you need to reboot? How often do you need cablecard adjustments, or do shows not record or other misc problems? Thanks
Mo

[mohanman]

I personally, switched from MCE to SageTV to TIVO, and I couldn't be happier. No more pc upgrades, noisy machine, worrying about crashes etc. Tivo does the best job! I have one in the bedroom, and one in the living room. Both can record, you can watch shows recorded on one to the other, and I can transfer shows to my ipod/iphone and computer. The best!

But.. I could not let go of SageTV. It was my friend over the past few years.. so I use the hd extenders as video/picture/music streamers. I love Sage. So TIVO does the TV, Sage does the rest. Media center? It sucks! I dealt with that junk for years. No more!

Lates
Mo

[PLUCKYHD]

Sorry you feel that way my media center has been rock solid since the install of SP1 and only had a couple of channels with issues before that. I reboot every week just to give everything a "fresh" start. To me I trust my media center pc 100%. Tivo is nice but the interface is slow especially after time and they have their cable card issues as well.

The cable card issues I think are become less and less and will continue to get better as the technology matures within Vista. I don't regret my purchase at all. For me it was the only oppurtunity to get my premium and hdtv channels in a clear digital format. I also use the HDHOMERUN for OTA. I am getting ready to purchase two more ati tuners from fleabay to have a total of 4 cable card tuners.

Plus the xbox 360 is a great extender I stream all of my movies by converting them to DVR-MS not much to it using ANYDVD as well it is a one step copy. Yes I lose the menus and such but I always ripped movies just by grabing the main film itself.

[DOS64K]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

Plus the xbox 360 is a great extender I stream all of my movies by converting them to DVR-MS not much to it using ANYDVD as well it is a one step copy. Yes I lose the menus and such but I always ripped movies just by grabing the main film itself.

I tried the Xbox360 extender, and there just isn't any comparison with Sage's HD extender. The 360 sounded like an F4 in afterburner, and was limited in its streaming abilities without plugins and hacks. Sage's HD100, quote:
With the Media Extender you get playback support for MPEG1/2/4, H.264, WM9, AVI, MP3, JPEG, PNG and GIF files. It just plain works - natively. The V2 extenders coming out for VMC are a joke considering how long they've been in development.

I switched to Sage because I got tired of MCE/VMC hacks and promises unkept. I can live without pretty GUIs knowing that I can stream whatever I need without compromise or conversion.

[PLUCKYHD]

I agree the extenders for sage support more formats but once again for me it was about HDTV native support.

To call the new V2 extenders a joke is a stretch to me that do what it promised of them. It is simply Microsoft's fault that dvd streaming is not supported not the extender manufacture's

yes the xbox 360 is loud but mine are kept out of site and plus I can game on them too

[paulbeers]

Does VMC have the limitation of 3 tuners still? That is a huge deal breaker for me when I contemplated switching to WMC. I have several different ways to capture television (QAM for HD locals, OTA for SD Locals, and Cable for all other channels) and that would mean I would have constant conflicts.