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| General Discussion General discussion about SageTV and related companies, products, and technologies. |
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#1
01-31-2004, 10:40 AM
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Newbie help
I currently have satellite and would like to set up a HTPC. SageTV looks promising, yet I am still a bit confused... I have my main HT setup and then another room with a satellite receiver where the HTPC would go.
I would like to be able to do the following with the HTPC: 1. Record and watch TV from the HTPC This brings up the issue of first being able to navigate thru satellite TV listings on the PC and recording from satellite. How exactly does that work? How does SageTV change channels on the receiver? 2. Stream recorded TV shows, WMA, various DIVX codecs, MPG/MPEG 1+2, MP3 music, JPG images, and/or bmp images over a wireless network to my main TV in another room. I would like to be able to have a menu on my main TV that would allow me to view shows recorded on the HTPC (in another room) as well as movies or other media files I have on my HTPC harddrive. Does SageTV show a menu on my main TV over a wireless 802.11b network (if I have to upgrade to 802.11g for bandwidth, I will) and then is it possible for me to use a remote from the other room to make selections from the SageTV/HTPC generated menu to view recorded or saved material. So basically I need a wireless way to be able to watch recorded/saved material on my main TV - including sound through my home theater. Is this possible? What would I need to do this? Is there a RF remote that works with SageTV? So hardware (do I have this right?): Server: Tuner card - which one? Software - SageTV (server?) Computer - lots of hard drive space (RAID), RAM and what is a good processor? Client machine (for connecting from SageTV server to TV): Tuner card - needed? Software - SageTV (client?) Computer - minimum HD space, minimum RAM and what would be an adequate processor? Video card?? Needs video out... Is there another option for a cleint machine/device like the MediaMVP - where I dont need to build a 2nd PC just for wirelessly linking to the HTPC server? Thanks in advance for any assistance... 
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#2
01-31-2004, 12:35 PM
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1) Sage has it's own listings and controls the Sat box via IR or Serial.
2) A client is the best way to do what you describe (there's probably a version of SageClient coming for the MediaMVP although we don't know when). Sage does not support WMA, the rest should be possible. SageClient looks/behaves almost exactly like the full SageTV (less the advance configuration options). 802.11b is nowhere near fast enough, you need at least 11g, wired would be better, but G should work for one client. Specs: The server is the only box that needs much HDD space the client only needs enough for the OS. RAM - I'd go with 512 for both, I know I routinely run in the 200's on my Sage box (Sage uses about 80Mb), not sure what the client uses but RAM is cheap. Tuner card: The 250 should work well for you. CPU: P4 2.4-2.6C (800MHz FSB) seem to be a good price/performance value now. Save yourself some trouble and get a motherboard with an Intel chipset, a number of people have reported trouble with 3rd party (VIA, ALi, SIS) chipsets, especially with multiple tuners. You can get by with far less power if you get a hardware decoder, but it's not as simple an answer as you might think (see below). Video out: If you've got an HDTV, the answer is simple, get a good video card. I use a Radeon 9500 and the picture is awesome, especially on DVDs. If you've got a display with VGA or DVI then a Radeon 9500+ or Geforce FX would work equilly well probably. If you only have YPbPr then the Radeon may be a better choice since you can use the ATI HDTV DVI-I -> Component adapter which is easier than using powerstrip and a transcoder (which would be required on an FX). If you're not using an HDTV the answer is more complicated. A Radeon/FX with TV out will function just the same as above but may or may not have acceptable PQ. The other option is to use a Hardware decoder like the PVR 350 or Sigma Xcard. However, there are issues with both of these. The 350 only works with recordings, no divx/mp3/DVD/etc, only MPEG1/2, it does display the Sage UI/OSD (with Sage 2.0). The Xcard supports more formats, but does not output the UI/OSD. Since you'll probably need a video card anyway, I'd suggest trying that first. Hope that helps.
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#3
01-31-2004, 02:23 PM
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A few more comments.
1) If it is possible to setup a wired network for this system, do it. It will save you headaches, support multiple clients, and is cheaper and easier to manage in the long run. 2) If you are going to have two boxes, a server and a client, put the fastest cpu in the client not the server. It seems like everyone assumes the server needs to be hefty, but it actually does very little work. All the heavy lifting is done by the hardware encoding chip on the tuner cards. All the server does is move data from memory to the disk and from the disk to the network. And with the cpu on the client you get extra post processing options, you could play pc games on your tv, etc. 3) The MediaMVP is (from what people say here, I don't have one) usable today to view the video recorded on your server. You can not, however, do any of the other stuff like configure recordings, view upcoming recordings, etc. t
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#5
02-06-2004, 02:12 AM
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Thanks very much for the input...
OK so lets see if I got this... I need a base machine (cheapest P4 with 800Mhz FSB) with a large RAID on the server - probably a SATA RAID 0 if that will work - maybe 2 or 4 Raptors... I need a tuner card for this machine to record. If I want HDTV, I need the 350. The server will only be for recording and holding my media (images, divx, MP3s, etc) Then I need a powerful machine for my client. As far as I can tell, I need a pretty sweet machine for the client as it will be doing all of the work putting video from server out to my TV. I dont need a 250 or 350 for this machine, as long as I have Sage client installed and it can talk to my server machine. As long as I have Sage client talking to the server I can use it to queue up TV I record from the server and play any media files from the server. I can then have a remote local to the client machine to specifically control the client machine in order to access the server. The server I dont need a remote for, because I will be using it directly or I can use the client machine w/ remote and Sage client software to program recordings on the server... Am I correct so far? So... Server: Not so powerful TONS of FAST HD space 512MB FAST RAM 250 card for non HDTV or 350 card for HDTV Sage Server with no remote Client: Powerful machine 80GB 7200rpm/8MB cache HD 1GB FAST RAM Video out card - not sure which one (ideas?)... Not recording on this machine so no need for 250 or 350... Networking: Preferably wired, yet many people have had success with 802.11g - the client and server will be about 30' apart so I should get a fast connection. Renting, so ripping up carpet for wiring = bad... Will do it if wired is highly recommended I guess  Costs: Server: $1500 Client: $1500 KVM for server and other computers: $250?? Total: ~$3250 Last edited by llitz123; 02-06-2004 at 02:18 AM.
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#6
02-06-2004, 05:03 AM
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The server doesn't even need a p4 if that is really all you are going to use it for. My 2.4 GHz Celeron 3 tuner system generally stays in the 5-10% cpu busy range when recording on all three tuners. Others have used p3s <600MHz with multituner servers without a problem. Also, unless you are going to have a lot of clients, your disks don't really have to be all that fast. You can write and read a bunch of video streams to some pretty average disks, especially if you are configuring them in a raid 0 array. As a matter of fact, a lot of people who aren't client/server and put their systems in their entertainment systems specifically seek out 5400rpm drives since they are quieter and produce less heat.
As to the whole 350/250 thing, it seems you are a little confused. The difference between the two cards is that the 350 has a hardware mpeg decoder. In other words, it has a video out that saves your computer the effort of decoding the mpeg stream in software. A lot of people feel that the 350 produces a better picture than a video card. But the bottom line is that there is no advantage to having one in your server, only in a box connected to a tv. There is a disadvantage, as a matter of fact as a lot of people have problems with 350s in multituner systems. Additionally, the 350 is really only an advantage in a Standard Def system. For a HD system, you definitely want to go with a video card... which one depends on a lot of things such as the type of inputs your set has and your person preferences. If you really wanted to go with a hardware mpeg decoder for an HD system, the XCard will do it, but there is no OSD with that (menus, etc) just the raw video so you would have to use it in conjunction with a monitor. If it were me, for the server my focus would be on getting a MB with a really solid chipset (read intel chipset), the cheapest reasonable cpu and as much hard drive as your money will buy. I found a really great deal on a factory sealed WD 250GB drive on ebay for like $160. Also, if you are going to put all this money into, get more than one tuner. Just my personal preference. This is the biggest advantage over my TiVo. Not to be a broken record or anything, but if you can do it without too much grief I really don't think you will regret going wired between your server and your main client. t
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#7
02-06-2004, 05:50 AM
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First off thanks again for the responses...
I guess I didnt read well enough on the earlier posts... So I guess I will ask for even more input.  Sorry if this is repetitive - I think I have a handle on it and then I get more questions... Sheesh. I do not have HDTV, yet would like to be HDTV compliant if at all possible. Wired networking is a possibility, yet I will probably try 802.11g first and use wired as a last resort... Now about the hardware and software... I think I have a handle on the specs for the server. If people get by with such limited system specs, then I will get an avg costing Intel mobo and a cheap P3 or P4 chip for it and 512MB RAM. I think I will need the 250 card for the server to record off satellite - I only have 1 Sat receiver near where the server would be, so dual tuner wouldnt work on the server... How does the Sage software communicate with the Sat receiver? Is there an IR module or something included and does Sage control it? I read about that somewhere yet it could have been other software I was researching. I will probably get one large HD and then if its not performing well enough, I can get another and just RAID them. Is there a guide to how big a drive is versus how many hours it can hold using Sage? Now the client has me all confused. I need a fast machine for this from what I have read and, as mentioned, I need great picture quality going to a standard (non HD) TV. I dont understand the OSD issues - I understand the 350 doesnt have OSD - yet wouldnt some version of Sage be my OSD for the client machine? Would I need 2 copies of SageTV? One for server and one for client where the client would talk to the server? For the client I obviously want the best picture available and the ability to connect to the server using an IR remote control to the client machine and be able to browse and select my own stored media as well as recorded TV, as well as use the client to edit the server recording options via IR remote. Is there a way to do this? As I get closer to biting the bullet, I will probably have more specific hardware questions, yet for now I am most interested in organizing a system that will meet my wants/needs. Thanks again for any assistance...
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#8
02-06-2004, 11:44 AM
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Just a comment on harddrives. Don't waste money on expensive harddrives for video storage. If you stripe them, use at least 64KB stripes. Personally, I don't stripe, I use Windows volume manager in JBOD mode. This allows me to add new harddrives as I go, even if they are not the exact same size.. Unless you are planning on moving your video files around alot, you are better off with a simple JBOD system, cheap 5400rpm harddrives (or whatever is on sale at your local Fry's store). I prefer to buy 5400 rpm drives because they generate less noise, run colder, use less power, and tend to last longer than higher rpm drives.
Also, try to install windows into a separate partition from your video. Personally, I have a tiny 60GB drive as the OS drive, with an 8GB partition for the windows installation. You will want to format the video partitions with NTFS 64k blocksize, and as far as I know, there is no way to force the windows installation program to format with 64k blocks, so your only way is to format them after installation. Currently my setup is a 60GB drive with a 8GB partition for the os, and a 52GB partition that is JBODed with a 180GB drive, a 200GB drive and a 250GB drive, formatted as NTFS 64kb block size. The only reason I use JBOD as opposed to just letting SageTV have many video directories is that it makes it easier to mount the video directory on my network clients. The disadvantage is that if one of my 4 harddrives crash, I lose ALL my video. By letting SageTV control the video directories itself, you'd be able to replace just the failed drive.. For me it is a reasonable trade-off, I don't care too much if I lose my recordings.. Its not like harddrives fail every other week anyway.
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#9
02-06-2004, 01:37 PM
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You would run SageTV on your server and Sage Client on your client box. The client gives almost the same exact interface as the main Sage app.
The V2 beta does support OSD for the 350 and, while their still seems to be some issues surrounding it, people pretty consistently say that it gives the best SD picture available. Be aware, though, that you won't be able to see any other apps or the windows desktop on your 350. But you can always use your tvout on your video card connected to a separate input on your tv for that if you want to. Having said that, if you put a 350 in your client I would hope that you wouldn't let the tuner in it sit idle. Not to confuse things more but if you have a 350 in your client, it is possible to use it, via Sage Recorder, to also act as a Network Encoder (sort of a remote tuner) that the server sees as just another tuner. Their are a lot of options on controlling the client via remote. Look at this thread about the best remote for sage. You probably don't need a remote for your server, just your client. t
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#10
02-06-2004, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
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#11
02-06-2004, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
I still dont get the difference regarding how the 350 affects OSD - what exactly is the OSD that the 350 has trouble with? What is messed up? Wouldnt the OSD of the Sage Client be all I need to communicate with and control the server? I only have 2 satellite hookups in the house (one Dish with 2 line outs). One is going to a Dish 508 PVR on my main HT setup and one hookup going to a standard receiver in my office where the Sage server would go. The HTPC is mainly for streaming my media, yet because its possible now, I would also use it as a 2nd PVR. Unless there is a media server that would simply work for streaming all my media to my main HT... Thanks for any assistance.
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#12
02-07-2004, 12:35 PM
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I think I am waay too confused at this point... Have been reading tons of product comparisons between different hardware/software. Many like the Snapstream with a myHTPC frontend or something... Others really like Sage and its hardware support.
Bottom line I want to stream media from my PC to my TV - having a 2nd PVR in the house with streaming capabilities would be awesome, yet trying to figure it all out right now is giving me a headache... In the short-term I will probably go with this D-link product and upgrade my network to 11g from 11b. It'll be a short-term $300 (versus $3000+) investment for the product and a nice 11g router of some sort. I'll be using my gaming machine to stream the content instead of a new server, but hey - I wont be on the computer if I'm watching media on the tv Maybe it will satisfy me long enough until someone comes out with a totally comprehensive hardware/software package that does everything I want/need so I dont have to "work" so hard trying to understand even the basics. And to think I thought I was tech savvy... Sheesh! Then again if the D-link thing turns out to be a piece of crap, I'll be back!!!  Thanks everyone for the help and sorry to be such a pain.
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