Still no fix for stuttering HD playback on SageTV recordings?

[rosemary]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

Do you have a possiblity of using an external drive? Doing so could allow you to have backup capability for more than one computer (if you have multiples) or just increase the number of things you can have on disk. This would allow you to DO the backup to be safe and get you increased storage and the recommended cluster size.

The problem is that these video files are not worth the $$$ that it would cost to shell out for an external disk so I could set it to 64k clusters which, again, to me based on the set of symptoms do not seem like it would fix it. I would need to backup 350 gigs (realized it was actually that much, not 300). Using an external USB enclosure which I already have, that would run about $70 at a minimum. That's a large chunk of money to troubleshoot an $80 piece of software, especially if it's not guaranteed to be the problem!

Edit: Oh, and for those wondering how the heck I backup my system normally, I use Mozy online backup. Keeps the files synced to their servers, nice and safe should my house burn down or something. Great setup, until you want to store multi-gig video files there. That's a no go.

[Opus4]

The only other thing I can think of to suggest trying is increasing the NumBuffers and/or BufferSize in this registry entry:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SOFTWARE\\Frey Technologies\\Common\\DSFilters\\MpegDeMux

However, even if that helps playback for a single stream, it still won't help if multiple fragmented streams are being read from/written to the drive at the same time or even when recording a single show. With multiple streams, the drive will most likely NOT be able to keep up with the video data throughput when 4K clusters are in use... that's like trying to put out a fire using Dixie cups while running back & forth 25 yards to fill the cup, dump the water, fill the cup, dump the water, ... your legs can't do it fast enough and neither can the drive.

- Andy

[MeInMaui]

Did you ever mention what video decoder you are using? Also, have you tried switching between VMR9 and Overlay renderers? If using VMR9, do you have full screen exclusive (FSE) enabled? (not sure if this is still necessary as I don't use Vista)

I agree with the others that keeping your recordings on a separate partition/drive with 64k clusters is considered best practice and looking for any other issues in the face of that is kind of like trying to hear a pin drop at a rock concert.

One other thought is do you have access to another computer? If so, you could try running the trial of Placeshifter to see if you still get stuttering there. That could help rule out other playback issues as the culprit.

Aloha,
Mike

[rosemary]

Originally Posted by Opus4

The only other thing I can think of to suggest trying is increasing the NumBuffers and/or BufferSize in this registry entry:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SOFTWARE\\Frey Technologies\\Common\\DSFilters\\MpegDeMux

However, even if that helps playback for a single stream, it still won't help if multiple streams are being read from/written to the drive at the same time or even when recording a single show. With multiple streams, the drive will most likely NOT be able to keep up with the video data throughput when 4K clusters are in use... that's like trying to put out a fire using Dixie cups while running back & forth 25 yards to fill the cup, dump the water, fill the cup, dump thte water, ...

- Andy

Sweet, thanks for the suggestion! I'll give it a shot as soon as this defragmentation finishes (and I see if it made any difference).

Please don't take this whole thing as me not being willing to try something even if I don't think it's the problem. I would try it in a heartbeat because even if it didn't fix it, you'd be satisfied that I tried it. But my choices to do this are 1) pay $50 for Acronis and either $70 for a secondary drive or $30 for dvd blanks and sitting there feeding in 100 discs or 2) make changes to my partition without a backup and risk losing all the data. It's just really not a good choice and I hope you can see why I would really want to exhaust all the other possibilities before having to decide if it was worth $80-120 to avoid having to minimize SageTV and play its recordings in Media Player Classic.

[rosemary]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Did you ever mention what video decoder you are using? Also, have you tried switching between VMR9 and Overlay renderers? If using VMR9, do you have full screen exclusive (FSE) enabled? (not sure if this is still necessary as I don't use Vista)

I agree with the others that keeping your recordings on a separate partition/drive with 64k clusters is considered best practice and looking for any other issues in the face of that is kind of like trying to hear a pin drop at a rock concert.

One other thought is do you have access to another computer? If so, you could try running the trial of Placeshifter to see if you still get stuttering there. That could help rule out other playback issues as the culprit.

Aloha,
Mike

I posted my SystemInfo.txt right near the beginning. I think that should let you know all you need about my current settings. If not, please feel free to ask a followup. I went through the seconds for the video decoders/renderers and changed to it every one that was listed, and all showed the same stuttering. Of course, I haven't tried every combination with other settings like full screen, 3d acceleration, etc. as that quickly gets into an outrageous number of combinations to try. If you have a few combination of all settings you want me to try, let me know and I'll give it a shot!

Also, I'll look into giving the Placeshifter a shot, but as it is right now I'm already getting way behind on work and stuff fiddling with this.

[MeInMaui]

FYI, Newegg has Acronis Disk Director for $35.

Edit: I looked at your SystemInfo.txt file and it doesn't say anything about your video decoder, just that you have SageTV set to use 'default'.

Aloha,
Mike

[rosemary]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

FYI, Newegg has Acronis Disk Director for $35.

Edit: I looked at your SystemInfo.txt file and it doesn't say anything about your video decoder, just that you have SageTV set to use 'default'.

Aloha,
Mike

$50, $35, it's still a decent chunk of change versus just playing them in Media Player Classic.

So, the question is what SageTV uses as the default. Can't answer that one myself. I'm guessing maybe it's a Sage built-in one. As I've said before, I've tried all the listed options for decoder and got the stuttering in all of them.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by spoon

The problem is that these video files are not worth the $$$ that it would cost to shell out for an external disk so I could set it to 64k clusters which, again, to me based on the set of symptoms do not seem like it would fix it. I would need to backup 350 gigs (realized it was actually that much, not 300). Using an external USB enclosure which I already have, that would run about $70 at a minimum. That's a large chunk of money to troubleshoot an $80 piece of software, especially if it's not guaranteed to be the problem!

Edit: Oh, and for those wondering how the heck I backup my system normally, I use Mozy online backup. Keeps the files synced to their servers, nice and safe should my house burn down or something. Great setup, until you want to store multi-gig video files there. That's a no go.

You can look at it as an investment if you were to buy an external drive. It would give you 350+GB of extra storage for more shows. You can never have enough storage - my opinion of course. For me I have about 12TB of storage but I'm a packrat. I delete very little. Also I try never to let my disks get > 50% full on the non-recording drives. And I move from the recording drives to the archive drives when I get less than about 250GB free on the recording drives.

[rosemary]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

You can look at it as an investment if you were to buy an external drive. It would give you 350+GB of extra storage for more shows. You can never have enough storage - my opinion of course. For me I have about 12TB of storage but I'm a packrat. I delete very little. Also I try never to let my disks get > 50% full on the non-recording drives. And I move from the recording drives to the archive drives when I get less than about 250GB free on the recording drives.

Just doesn't make financial sense for me. Plus, external drive rate failures for USB enclosures is incredibly troubling. That's one of the main reasons I've went the Mozy route.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by spoon

Just doesn't make financial sense for me. Plus, external drive rate failures for USB enclosures is incredibly troubling. That's one of the main reasons I've went the Mozy route.

Understand. I don't use USB for any of mine either it is all in other computers or NAS devices but I've seen a number of people post that are or have been using them so was suggesting that as an option.

[Razillian]

Originally Posted by spoon

So, the question is what SageTV uses as the default. Can't answer that one myself. I'm guessing maybe it's a Sage built-in one. As I've said before, I've tried all the listed options for decoder and got the stuttering in all of them.

Sage uses whatever WMP uses when set to "Default". I'll suggest it again, because I don't think I saw a response, but if you have not tried nVidia Purevideo Decoder's yet give them a try. I think it is a 30 day free trial so you can see if it helps at all. There are a million posts here in the forums on "proper" setup of purevideo (making it the default windows decoder, and setting sage to use default, then tweaking the tray icon, etc). Of course now that I think of it, I am not sure if it is Vista compatible or not...

[rosemary]

Originally Posted by Razillian

Sage uses whatever WMP uses when set to "Default". I'll suggest it again, because I don't think I saw a response, but if you have not tried nVidia Purevideo Decoder's yet give them a try. I think it is a 30 day free trial so you can see if it helps at all. There are a million posts here in the forums on "proper" setup of purevideo (making it the default windows decoder, and setting sage to use default, then tweaking the tray icon, etc). Of course now that I think of it, I am not sure if it is Vista compatible or not...

So if Sage is using what WMP uses for the decoder, and WMP doesn't stutter playing the same file, wouldn't that sort of rule out the decoder? I ask because as it stands now, all of my video files play just fine. In the past when I've futzed around with various decoder packages, there have always been some videos that get broken in the process. It would seem that it is unlikely that effort would be helpful.


To everyone else - I'm leaving for several days, so don't be surprised if I disappear from here. I will try to follow up when I get back with the suggestions made.

[Razillian]

Sage uses Java, sometimes it uses overlay, sometimes VMR9, sometimes full screen exclusive mode, sometimes Direct3D, etc, etc, etc. WMP does not have all those options, and doesn't use Java, thus it is different.

If all the media players behaved the same way, there would not be any additional media players, just WMP, but Arcsoft makes their own, Cyberlink does too, Nero even does, etc. So just because something works in WMP, does not mean it will behave the same way in Sage (or any other media player).

It seems alot like you want someone to just hand you the holy grail on a silver platter with a nice engraved plaquered and certificate stating its authenticity signed by the twelve apostles. And when you are not handed all of that, you decide it is not worth trying as a possible fix. We are all offering help here because we have systems that work, because we have gone through all the stuff we are putting out to you to try. If you aren't willing to take peoples advice and atleast give it a shot (escpecially when you have 12 people saying the same thing), don't complain about the results you are getting.

[rosemary]

Originally Posted by Razillian

Sage uses Java, sometimes it uses overlay, sometimes VMR9, sometimes full screen exclusive mode, sometimes Direct3D, etc, etc, etc. WMP does not have all those options, and doesn't use Java, thus it is different.

If all the media players behaved the same way, there would not be any additional media players, just WMP, but Arcsoft makes their own, Cyberlink does too, Nero even does, etc. So just because something works in WMP, does not mean it will behave the same way in Sage (or any other media player).

It seems alot like you want someone to just hand you the holy grail on a silver platter with a nice engraved plaquered and certificate stating its authenticity signed by the twelve apostles. And when you are not handed all of that, you decide it is not worth trying as a possible fix. We are all offering help here because we have systems that work, because we have gone through all the stuff we are putting out to you to try. If you aren't willing to take peoples advice and atleast give it a shot (escpecially when you have 12 people saying the same thing), don't complain about the results you are getting.

Wow, I think you read far too much into that last post. I understand why there are different media players. I understand about different decoders. I was just trying to parse the logic of your post. You said when set to default Sage would use whatever WMP uses. By your own statement, wouldn't this mean they would both use the same decoder? That's all I'm trying to ask here.

And as far as everyone posting the same thing, I've already been over why I won't try that right now. Over and over it. IT'S NOT THAT I DON'T WANT TO. Sorry, but I feel I have to shout it. As I've said before, without backing up the data, I am taking a risk of hosing it. And I have nothing to back up the data onto. I'm not asking for a holy grail, I'm just asking to try OTHER things before shelling out $50-$100 bucks. Is that really so bizarre?

All I'm trying to do here is the same thing I do whenever I fix a problem - try to apply the scientific method. There are a million settings and changes I could try at random, including changing the decoders. I say that changing the decoder seems a bit random because of the logic I was asking you about. If I can isolate it and show the decoder isn't causing the stuttering by showing WMP and SageTV using the same decoder and WMP not having the problem and SageTV having it, doesn't that say to you that it's probably not the decoder? Wouldn't you want to try other things before trying that? I'm not saying I won't try it at all, but don't you see why I would save that one for later?

[Razillian]

Originally Posted by spoon

I say that changing the decoder seems a bit random because of the logic I was asking you about. If I can isolate it and show the decoder isn't causing the stuttering by showing WMP and SageTV using the same decoder and WMP not having the problem and SageTV having it, doesn't that say to you that it's probably not the decoder? Wouldn't you want to try other things before trying that? I'm not saying I won't try it at all, but don't you see why I would save that one for later?

The Cyberlink PowerDVD Ultra 7.3 decoders will play back H264 files in WMP and in PowerDVD, but not in SageTV. Cyberlink 7 decoders work fine in all three. Cyberlink 8 works fine in all three. Cyberlink H264 standalone decoder works fine in all three. But for some reason, the 7.3 decoders do not work in Sage. Might be a problem with the way Sage is written, might be a problem with the 7.3 decoders, might be a different standard. Who knows... Just that they don't work in Sage like they do WMP.

Slight variants in the interpretations and implementations of standards, API, SDK, and everything else under the sun means that just because something works in one program, does not mean it will behave the same in another.

In answer to your 64K format question (why WMP doesn't have a problem with it), WMP is specifically written by Microsoft, the same company that set the default format block size for an NTFS drive to NOT BE 64K. Of course their program will play back media that is saved on a hard drive using default block sizes. They just added more buffering until it worked the way they thought it should. Still doesn't mean that it will work in all instances with all other media players. I read your reasons for not being able to format the drive for 64K cluster sizes, which is why I offered up another possible solution that you promptly shot down as being unlikely the cause.

The point of my last post was that, as you said, there are a million variants, but those variants are not an equal spread across the board. These couple things that have been thrown out to you are the most obvious culprits (cause over 90% of cases of stuttering) and without fixing these culprits the odds of getting stutter free playback in Sage with HD material is at a minimum.

[kevine]

Originally Posted by spoon

Wow, I think you read far too much into that last post. I understand why there are different media players. I understand about different decoders. I was just trying to parse the logic of your post. You said when set to default Sage would use whatever WMP uses. By your own statement, wouldn't this mean they would both use the same decoder? That's all I'm trying to ask here.

First, I was getting the same impression he was so I don't think he was reading into it. That is how you are coming across to me as well.

Next, that can't rule out the decoder for Sage because it is Sage using it and not WMP. I think what he is trying to say is that Sage may better fit with PureVideo than other decoders. The player and decoder make a marriage. If the male leaves the toilet seat up, it may work for female 1 but not female 2.

[Razillian]

Originally Posted by spoon

All I'm trying to do here is the same thing I do whenever I fix a problem - try to apply the scientific method.

I have to add one last thing in response to this, because in rereading your post I had a thought scream in my head that I think most people here would have a hard time denying. Sage is not a science, it is an artform.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Razillian

Sage is not a science, it is an artform.

Darn wish I'd thought of that I could use it as a signature.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by Razillian

Sage is not a science, it is an artform.

That's what we used to say about Unix "back in the day" and look how long it took Unix to catch on. Sage needs to be an appliance.

[garyellis]

This may not help at all, but I will mention it...

I have comskip monitor installed and just recently tried to have it work while the shows were still recording.

The last 2 HD shows I tried recording and watching this way, starting stuttering. Very rythmic stuttering...about every 5 seconds... when I shut comskip off, the stuttering went away, but actually stayed in the recorded show, up until the comskip turn off time...

I have a quad core Intel processor and my HD's are 64K clusters and nothing else is running other than Sage. So, I should have plenty of system. I'm going to post this in the comskip forum, but thought I might mention it since you are having stuttering problems..

Gary Ellis