building new PVR

[webster]

I am looking to build a PVR and do away with our DVR with the cable company. I read through a lot of posts and it looks like many people mention multiple video or tuner cards. I believe I have also come across a post that said you had to connect the PVR to your cable box for HD decryption. Can some of you explain this to me and answer the questions I have?

I currently have a digital HD DVR thru cox cable, www.cox.com

I would like to get away from their box and plug the cable directly into the PVR computer.

The current cable box has upwards of 900 channels. I read on here that one of the tuner cards goes up to 125. How do you get the rest of the channels?

The base PC I have is
duel core 2.6 GHz with the OS on drive 1
3x500GB drives as a raid for video
4GB of memory

I want to minimize the wires from the PVR to the television. Either going wireless over a 5GHz N router or sending the signal over cat6.

What tuner card(s) are recommended and what else do I need so that we can watch television on one screen, record 2+ shows simultaneously and watch another?

[mikejaner]

You would want to use the Hauppauge HDPVR if you want to record HD from that cable box. When talking about tuner cards which are limited to 125 channels, that is in refrence to tuners which you plug directly into a cable jack, bypassing a DVR or Cable box. Those tuners are only capable of Standard Definition tuning. There are also Digital Tuners, which record HD with Over the air signals (ATSC) or (QAM).

To be able to record two channels at once with cable boxes, you would need two tuners. In your case, you would need to get a second one from Cox. You also would need two HDPVR's.

If you are going to use a PC to hook up to your TV, you would need a beefier setup to decode HD coming from HDPVR's.
The best option, in my opinion, is to use that PC to record and stash it with the cable boxes and tuners in your basement, closet, or whatever, then get an SageTV HD200 Extender, which is a small silent appliance which talks to SageTV over your network and does all of the HD decoding etc.....

[sic0048]

Your cable company probably encrypts 97% of the digital channels you receive. Therefore you need a way to decrypt the signal before you can record it. There are only two options that I am aware of.

1) Buy an OEM digital cablecard certified computer from Dell or someone similar. You will need 1 digital cablecard for every concurrent show you want to watch. You cannot buy the tuners separately (well you can, but they will only work on a OEM built cable card certified machine). This option will run you $1000 and more depending on how many tuners you want. You also have to use MS media center as far as I know. In other words, something like this.

2) Use your cable company supplied STB to decrypt the signals and then record the output of the boxes using SageTV software. This is pretty easy to do now. If you only want SD quality recordings, then you can use just about any analog tuner that has a S-Video and/or composite video input. If you want to record HD quality, then your only option is to use the Hauppauge HD-PVR. You use the component outputs from the STB and hook them into the HD-PVR component inputs. Then the HD-PVR will record whatever is being outputted from the box. This leads to the next requirement which is a way to change the channel on the STB. Worse case scenerio, the HD-PVR comes with a built in IR blaster. As long as you don't have any other Hauppauge cards installed on your machine, you can probably use this just fine (I do for example). However, depending on the STB you have, you might be able to control the channel selection via a firewire connection. This is generally faster than IR so it can be more attractive. You will also need 1 STB and HD-PVR combination for each concurrent show you want to record.

The QAM tuners you see for sale (like the HDHomeRun for example) will not decrypt any encryted signals. So they are only good to record the 3% of shows that your cable company transmits unencrypted. The amount of unencrypted channels varies from market to market, but generally only includes the local network channels. If you get more than you locals in unencrypted QAM, consider yourself lucky and also consider yourself warned. Those channels could become encrypted without notice at any time at the discretion of the cable company.

To record analog cable shows, you can get pretty much any analog tuner card and simply plug the coaxial cable right into the tuner card. The analog broadcasts are not encrypted, so you do not need a STB involved. If you are not subscribed to the proper cable package, the cable company simply doesn't send the analog broadcast to your house.

Hopefully this helps.

[sic0048]

The first post of mine talked about how to record the cable broadcasts. There is a second part to the story and that is how to do watch the shows once they are recorded.

I would highly recommend that you look at the Sage HD Home Theater. This is referred to as an extender. Basically it connects to a wired network and communicates with the computer that recorded the shows in step #1. It pulls those shows off the HD of the computer and over the network and then displays them on whatever display/TV you have connected it to in HD quality. If you don't use an extender, then you need to have the display/TV hooked up to a computer. Since most of us don't want a computer sitting out next to our TVs, we use the extender instead.

In addition to the DVR shows that the computer recorded, you can also access any pictures, music, and a lot of other types of media files that might be stored on your computer by using the extender. So it is a great way to show the family pictures on your TV and be able to use a remote control to scroll through them, etc. Or watch a DVD that you ripped to the computers hard drive, etc

Again, hopefully that answers some of your questions.

Welcome to the forum and feel free to ask more questions.

[webster]

so it sounds like I have to keep a box from the cable company, run the cable into it and then output to the PC runing sage. If I have a tuner card with duel inputs or two tuner cards, I would have to have two cable boxes, correct? Since the cable box is capable of outputting one signal at a time?

[sic0048]

So why go with a computer based DVR system rather than use the cable companies DVR?

1) Flexability. This is the biggest reason to do it. It is also a broad answer, so let me break it down even further.

• Flexable storage space. It is easy to add HDs to increase the amount of total storage. With 1TB drive regularly selling for $100 or less, it is cheap as well.
• Flexability to add more tuners for more concurrent recordings. Most cable DVRs will only record 1 or 2 shows max. You can add more tuners than that to most computer based DVRs.
• Flexability to watch the shows where you want and also be able to copy the files you record. These files are just like any other computer file and can be shared with other computers or extenders around the house. Or you can burn them to DVDs or other media. Cable company DVRs generally lock the files to that device (ie there is no way to get the files off the DVR machine). You can even stream the stuff over the internet with the right set up just like a slingbox works.

2) Cost - this one is open for debate. Of course you can get rid of the monthly DVR fee with the cable company. But one can argue that it might be offset with the need for more STBs (for multible HD-PVR recordings) or the initial cost of the computer based system. However, I like the fact that I own my computer based system and if I decide to change providers (go from cable to satellite or vice-versa) that my system will work just fine (because I use HD-PVR tuners and they will record any component stream I send them).

This may be more information than you wanted, but I guess I just got on a roll and didn't know when to quit.

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by webster

so it sounds like I have to keep a box from the cable company, run the cable into it and then output to the PC runing sage. If I have a tuner card with duel inputs or two tuner cards, I would have to have two cable boxes, correct? Since the cable box is capable of outputting one signal at a time?

If you go with the CableCard machine, then you simply plug the coaxial cable into the tuner. So you can do away with the STB completely. (BTW - those tuners only work with the current encrypted QAM schemes and don't work with satellite broadcasts, etc.)

But if you go with the second option, then you would need 1 STB for every concurrent show you want to watch/record at the same time - at least far as the encrypted QAM broadcasts are concerned.

For example, I have 1 STB connected to 1 HD-PVR. I also have a HDHomeRun which has two tuners capable of recording unencrypted QAM (my locals only). So I can record up to three shows at one time with just the single STB, but two of those shows must be my local uncrypted channels. I cannot record 2 encrypted shows at the same time because I only have a single STB in my setup and the STB is required to decrypt the signal in order to record it. The HDHomeRun simply has coaxial wire running to it.

[webster]

thanks! that answered my question. The reason I want to build my own is to record more shows. We just moved here and the STB we have can only record about 10 shows. I only get to watch on the weekends and if I don't watch this weeks, they have to get erased to record next weeks.

It would also condense all the cables going from cable/DVD to television into a single cat6.

How does over the air broadcast appear on screen? what about the change to digital broadcast by stations that was supposed to happen in February but didn't?

How does sage get their tv guide information? Does that come from Sage or does it some how read it from the STB?

[sic0048]

OTA signals are different altogether. Instead of QAM broadcasts, the OTA digital broadcasts are ATSC. So you would want to look for ATSC tuners in order to be able to record those signals.

The HDHomeRun that I mentioned earlier has two tuners build in and each tuner can be set for either QAM or ATSC. So you can set the HDHomeRun up to record either 2 QAM, 2 ATSC, or 1 QAM and 1 ATSC signal. So that might be a good option for you.

Obviously OTA signals don't require any sort of box. You simply plug the coaxial cable from the antenna right into the tuner.

As far as guide information, Sage uses it's own service. So you do not need the cable company to provide it. You can also combine all the attached tuners into on guide.

For example, I actually have unencrypted QAM (because I have cable internet), OTA, and Dishnetwork broadcasts. Sage allows me to see all the channels available on one guide. It doesn't matter if it is OTA, cable or satellite, it looks the same on the guide and a person would never know the difference if they switch from an OTA channel to a cable channel.

[71_Cuda]

Originally Posted by sic0048

If you go with the CableCard machine, then you simply plug the coaxial cable into the tuner. So you can do away with the STB completely.

Yes, but you will need to get (i.e. rent) CableCard(s) from your cable provider instead. These are usually cheaper to rent, but are required to decode the premium digital content. My cable company, for example, charges $9.99/month for a DVR (HD or SD), $6.99/month for a digital receiver (HD or SD), and $3.50/month for a CableCard.

You should also note that content recorded with these Digital CableCard tuners has strict DRM and does not have the same flexibility of moving, copying, converting, etc. that was mentioned as an advantage over a computer based PVR of a cable company provided DVR.

[webster]

I called our cable company and they said our service is not encrypted and that I can connect coax directly to the tuner card. Going by that information, I can plug multiple connections into multiple cards and record directly. The remaining issue is that we discussed the cards stop at channel 125 but the HD channels here are in the 700 range.

I also seem to recall that someone on here had an issue when the tried to install two HDHomerun cards. Do you recommend buying the cards from sage or purchasing them elsewhere? I did not see a vast selection at sage's online store.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by webster

The reason I want to build my own is to record more shows.

Interesting. That was not one of the reasons I switched, as I have a 1TB Apricorn DVR Xpander (bought for $149 on sale) and that, combined with the hard disk storage inside my SA 8300HD PVR, allows me to record about 300 hrs of HD programming.

I moved to SageTV (which I am still implementing) because of the myriad of other features. And, I keep discovering new ones each day and new ways to customize my on screen menus.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by webster

I called our cable company and they said our service is not encrypted and that I can connect coax directly to the tuner card.

Who's your cable company? I find it hard to believe that they don't encrypt any of their channels.

Going by that information, I can plug multiple connections into multiple cards and record directly. The remaining issue is that we discussed the cards stop at channel 125 but the HD channels here are in the 700 range.

I also seem to recall that someone on here had an issue when the tried to install two HDHomerun cards. Do you recommend buying the cards from sage or purchasing them elsewhere? I did not see a vast selection at sage's online store.

I think you need to do a bit of reading and understand what the HD-PVR and HDHomeRun are about. They are not tuner cards. The HD-PVR is a external box that connects to your PC via USB. And the HDHomerun is also external box that connects to the PC via your home network.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by webster

I called our cable company and they said our service is not encrypted and that I can connect coax directly to the tuner card.

I've learned not to believe ANYTHING any cable company says unless I've witnessed it for myself. Most of the time they don't have a clue, even about their own equipment.

[webster]

I figured they had no clue. My brother-in-law's father works for the cable company, cox, and I am going to talk with him.

I do not want the HDPVR from sage. I looked but cannot find the HDHomerun so I was just going by what was mentioned above. I have no idea what it is.

[TallMomof2]

Cox encrypts everything but locals and analog. Brother has Cox over in Hampton.

I use 1 HD-PVR to get my movie channels and HD cable channels and 2 HDHRs for 3 channels of QAM and 1 OTA. I'd like to add another HD-PVR but that requires another STB. My HDHRs are connected directly to the cable out of the wall.

[sdsean]

Ok lets back up a second. . . it sounds like this is you 1st time doing this. . .if so there
is a lot to consider

You really need to evaluate what you already have in your house in terms of Network / Computer hardware, and where you have your TV etc.

There a literally tens of ways to hook up a DIY HTPC, but it really depends on what your setup is currently in your home, and what you are willing to spend / move too.

For example, do you want your PC next to your TV? do you want to record a bunch of shows and watch them on any TV in the house? Are you willing to spend a fair amount of up front cash (150-1500 or more)? Who is your cable provider? How many STBs (set top boxes) do you have in your house?

For noobs, there's lots to consider, totally worth doing, but some people just opt to pay the man b/c its a lot of hassle and potentially a lot of cash up front.

Feel free to PM me with more direct questions.

[webster]

We have several televisions but only one cable box which has a DVR. The STB is about 10 feet away from the main television. I have the router, STB, DVD player all on the stand. I am looking to spend about a grand on the computer and components. I want to have PC access on the television anyway so I planned on building a PC and connecting it. The more I read about DIY DVR the more I became interested in adding that functionality which I could later make use of on the other televisions via the HomeTheatre by Sage.

I am confused by the QAM and OTA. Right now, we have HD cable coming into the STB/DVR going to the television. It can record two channels and we can watch one recorded show simultaneously. My initial goal would be to do at least the same and store more video on the PC version.

[sic0048]

HDHomeRun for $158 shipped

You can also get the HD-PVR for about $155 from Dell

As mentioned, the HDHR is a network device. You hook the coaxial cables into the tuner (for either OTA or QAM) and then connect the device to the network. After installing everything, the sage server will see the tuners on the network the same way they would see a local tuner card.

The HD-PVR (for component capture) plugs into a local computer via a USB cable. You need to plug the component cable from the STB into the HD-PVR. Once installed, Sage also sees the HD-PVR just like any other tuner.

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by webster

I am confused by the QAM and OTA. Right now, we have HD cable coming into the STB/DVR going to the television. It can record two channels and we can watch one recorded show simultaneously. My initial goal would be to do at least the same and store more video on the PC version.

QAM is the type of digital signal that cable companies use. It can be (and usually is) encrypted by the cable company. If the signal is not encrypted, then any QAM tuner will be able to display the signal. If the signal is encrypted, a regular QAM tuner will show only a black screen because there is no decryption capability built into the QAM tuners themselves. Only a cable STB or a cablecard issued by the cable company can decrypt the signal and make it viewable.

Off the Air broadcasts (OTA- but technically called ATSC for digital broadcasts) are the signals that you can pull in with an antenna. These signals are free and unencrypted to anyone that lives close enough to the broadcasts that they can tune them. You can use anything from old rabbit ears (or even a coathanger) if you live really close to the broadcast towers, or a large roof/mast mounted antenna if you live far away from the towers.

The two signals are very different and not interchangable. Some tuners will have both ATSC and QAM tuners build it (like the HDHR), but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.

To match what you are doing now, you would need two QAM tuners or two HD-PVRs. However, we all suspect that the majority of your cable channels are actually being encrypted by the cable company. Therefore you would need two non-DVR STBs and two Hauppauge HD-PVRs if you want to be able to record two cable shows at the same time. Now if the majority of your TV viewing is actually on the local networks (NBC, ABC, Fox, etc), then you might be able to get by with just 1 STB and 1 HD-PVR and a QAM tuner. But that QAM tuner will not be able to record anything but the local networks (assuming that is all the channels that you get unencrypted).