MKV Playback with Subtitles

[newpath]

I am using the HD-200 in stand-alone mode and have installed the latest beta firmware, 20090429 0. The HD-200 is networked and accesses the shares on my computer hard drive perfectly for playback of music and videos.

I am converting my dvds to MKV files containing H.264 video and AC3 audio to save space, allowing for more movies to be stored on my hard drives. These MKVs play excellently through the HD-200 to my HDTV, except for the subtitles. I re-encode my dvds using HandBrake to produce the initial MKV file. I rip the subtitles from the appropriate DVD VOB set using VSRip and remux the initial MKV with the resulting .idx file using MKVmerge. Everything goes without error and the final MKV plays perfectly, subtitles and all, on my computer using Media Player Classic. I then copy the MKV to the movie folder that is accessed by the HD-200 and when I play the MKV, it plays just fine. However, when I press the Options button and select Subtitles, the video freezes while the audio continues on. I have tried both uncompressed and zlib-compressed subtitles with the same freezing result. By the way, if I copy the DVD to the shared folder and play it through the HD-200, the subtitles are displayed and the movie plays perfectly.

I have arrived at a re-encoding system that produces and MKV from the original DVD that shows no detectable quality differences on my 52" HDTV. So, I was extremely interested in the HD-200 because of its MKV playback capabilities, but subtitles are a must for some of my DVDs. Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong? Thanks in advance.

[Phydeaux]

First of all, welcome, Newpath. I'm a relative newbie here too, but I'll take a stab at your questions because they mirror my own experiences.

Secondly... you're doing nothing wrong. I've done exactly the same thing using the same tools and it produces a perfectly acceptable MKV file with merged IDX/VOB subs. Plays well on any software player I've used. However with the version 20090429 0 firmware on the HD200, selecting the subtitles cause mine to shut down and force me to warm boot it again. There is a newer firmware out - version 20090505 0 - but with it I can't play MKV files at all. Well, they play, but they freeze every 5-30 seconds until you hit the skip forward button. I've got a bug report in to Sage on this, as I'm sure several others have. Sage have been really good about nailing down these bugs, so I expect the next version of the firmware will address these issues. Typically they come out every couple weeks. For now, I've moved back to the firmware you're using also. Just can't play those subtitled MKV files.... yet.

On a related note I've been undecided what is the best way to approach subtitles. I think the ultimate, in terms of quality, is text-based subs. They look much, much better than graphics based subs. You can easily edit them in case you spot something goofy, you can remove any closed captioning if you don't need it, easily alter size, position, color etc. Plus... they work perfectly right now with the SageTV/HD200 Extender. However, from what I've seen they are somewhat labor intensive to create. None of the OCRs I've tried did a good enough job to not have to go through the entire listing to check and correct.

On the other hand graphics based subs look rubbish... but they are are relatively easy. I've come to the conclusion that, for me, it's just as well to let Handbrake hard-burn the subs. No fuss, no extra steps. They look identical to the IDX/VOB approach, you just can't turn them off. But if I could understand the foreign language I wouldn't need the subs... but I can't, so why would I turn them off?

Just my 2/100$

RLW

[newpath]

Phydeaux, thanks for the information. I, too, went up to the 20090505 0 firmware and can still play MKVs just fine, but I get the same video freezing when I turn on subtitles. I did try to mux the H.264, ac3 audio, and subtitle streams into a .ts container using tsMuxeR and the subtitles worked fine, but they and the audio were way out of sync. This is probably a muxing problem that I have not had time to sort out.

I agree with you that the text-based subtitles are much better, but, as you say, they can be a pain to set up. VSRip outputs .srt subtitles that look OK in Notepad (no spelling errors, etc.) and I tried muxing those into an MKV, but got the same video freezing problem with the HD-200 in stand-alone mode. You say in extender mode they play perfectly. Were they separate files from the MKV or muxed into the MKV?

I also agree that hard-coding subtitles in Handbrake is the way to go if the entire movie is in a foreign language, but I have a number of DVDs waiting for conversion that have only portions of the audio in a foreign language. Even though Handbrake has an option for "Forced Subtitles Only" it has never worked for me. I think I may have to analyze the subtitle stream to see if the Forced Subtitles flag is set to off. If I turn it to on, maybe Handbrake will pick them up.

In any event, let me know about your subtitle-extender mode experience.

[Taddeusz]

If you haven't already you might want to submit an official bug report on the problem.

I know there is a problem with FF/REW causing playback of MKV files to lock up that will be fixed in the next firmware update.

[valnar]

There was a certain combination of Sage one beta ago and HD200 firmware two betas ago (I think that was the order) where MKV files with subs played just fine. They're just messing with things on the latest betas.

I've submitted a bug report for the same. I'm sure it will get worked out.

[newpath]

A little update. I changed from stand-alone mode to extender-mode on the HD-200, but Phydeaux was right. Firmware 20090505 0 causes the video to lock up after about 30 seconds. Hitting any navigation button will start the video again, but it will lock up almost immediately.

I dropped back to firmware 20090429 0 on the HD-200 and the MKVs play beautifully with subtitles turned on, even forced subtitles. I am running SageTV 6.5.14.210 (file set version: 2009042202; online video version: 2009050701).

I have a fundamental resistance to apps running in the background, but I may stick with extender-mode because it looks nicer on the HDTV (cover images) and, more importantly, it refreshes media folders far faster than the HD-200.

I will file an official bug report to Sage. Just so you will know, the report will be for the purpose of helping Sage to see that is a universal problem, because I love SageTV and the HD-200. I have gone both the HTPC and Beyond TV routes and both were more trouble than they were worth.

[Phydeaux]

Newpath,
The MKV files that I have where the text based subtitles work perfectly in extender mode use ssa/ass type subs and they are embedded in the MKV file, not separate files.

Taddeusz,
I did submit a bug report when I updated my firmware and SageTV version to the latest and found this issue, which later turned out to not be related (at least not exclusively) to subtitled MKV files. I update the support folks once I realized this. They indicated to me on Monday that this issue has been resolved in an internal beta and will be included in a soon to be released public beta update. I'm assuming it's a firmware update for the HD200, not a new SageTV beta. Although they are often released together or within a day or so.

RLW

[newpath]

Phydeaux,
In extender mode I tried both sub/idx and test .srt (but not ssa/ass) subtitles and both worked perfectly with SageTV doing at least the initial processing.

Taddeusz,
I filed a bug report on Tuesday night and got a reply from Sage on Wednesday. They had reproduced the problem and are confident that the next HD-200 firmware will resolve the issue. Nice company.