What Would You Ask SageTV?

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by wado1971

Absolutely!
Why Linux? - In a way the same question could have been made for the hd100/200.

I'm not so sure you can/should make a comparison between a SageTV linux distro and the extenders. In the case of the extenders, you're starting with a known good state on the client side- the hardware and the software is "good". You certainly can't say anything about the hardware in a SageTV linux distribution, and you can't quite say the same thing with software either, because you have third-party software running in combinations that Sage can't possibly test.

I'm not convinced there's a huge difference between people running a common linux plateform and running a mostly common Windows platform.

Plug in a network cable/drives/usbTuner and it finds your extenders and auto configures.

That's the thing- it's not going to autoconfigure significantly more than it autoconfigures under Windows, as far as I can tell. Sure, the drivers will install automatically, assuming you're ok with the stock drivers, but you'll still have to configure things yourself. It seems like what you really need is a nice wizard for driver installation and configuration, and that could probably work under Windows just fine without needing to control the OS.

Not to mention the $savings ($99 min for whs).

The $100 for WHS isn't a terribly significant amount when you look at the total system cost. I'm not saying you should ignore it entirely, but when you put it in perspective with the cost of tuners, hard drives, and other hardware/software, I'm not sure that $100 savings justifies the work.

Let's not forget the fact that SageTV will be in complete control of the operating system running the server - read stability, less problems, less tech support.

I kind of wonder if this is a solution in search of a problem. We have plenty of people with video playback issues, but this doesn't address that (the extenders do). We also see lots of people having issues doing configuration-like things, like setting up a IR channel changing or channel remapping. This doesn't really help with that very much. And, we see people encountering odd bugs. This could do either way. On the one hand, everyone would be using the same platform, so bugs should be more uniformly felt and reproduced. At the same time, actual bugs are probably a bit more difficult to fix from the user perspective, since messing around with drivers on Linux can be a more painful experience than under Windows (I bet I just lost my geek credentials with that comment!).

The first thing I do with a M$ product is update to the latest service pack and then download all the bug fixes and that's just the start of it.

Right. So with the SageTV linux distro, it seems like there's two options. Either you completely let Sage control your OS, and you hope they do a pretty good job of keeping things up to date to the extent necessary. Or, you install your own updates, but then not only are you back to doing that work, but you also lose some of the benefit of everyone using basically the same platform.

[wayner]

I agree that I am not sure that this Sage for Linux on USB saves you all that much in terms of hassles. My config issues generally come from stuff like configuring tuners, IR blasters, firewire, channel lineup, plugins, video drivers for stable H.264 playback, remote controls, etc and I don't see how that will be simplified with this idea.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by wayner

I agree that I am not sure that this Sage for Linux on USB saves you all that much in terms of hassles. My config issues generally come from stuff like configuring tuners, IR blasters, firewire, channel lineup, plugins, video drivers for stable H.264 playback, remote controls, etc and I don't see how that will be simplified with this idea.

I think your list has very good examples of where the setup hassles are. One potential thing that the Sage linux distro has going for it is the possibility that the remaining HD-PVR reliability issues could get worked out. But, I suspect that's even a pipe dream. Probably many of the remaining reliability problems are the result of HD-PVR not handling glitchy audio/video input very well, and I don't see how this would help that.

[Fuzzy]

well, I think the only fix for the HD-PVR issues would reside in a QuickStreamFix style pre-filter on the recordings, before it gets written to the drive. This really SHOULD be done in the HD-PVR driver (optional, of course, so you would be allowed to run an unfiltered feed). As for the configuration options, most who would be interested in the USB option would be those more inclined to stick with mostly stock, and also be most likely to be running from a single source. It is those who will gain the most from this device, and those who it is targeted at.

Still, I like the idea of running the server from USB, simply because it leaves all the HDD's in the server to media storage, and that is all. The small footprint OS would be running from USB/RAMDrive. As long as it exposes the storage drives as network shares, you will be able to run comskip and whatnot on a separate machine. I can see that a cheap and simple Atom based board, with 2-4 drives in RAID, gigabit networking, and a single Dual ATSC/QAM capture card (all ATSC and QAM scanning MUST be from within the SageTV interface, so it can all be setup from the client/placeshifter/extender), would be a very decent seller, and a GREAT start-up for someone's introduction to SageTV.

[cncb]

Thanks for doing the interview, Brent. Unfortunately this just reinforces the fact that Microsoft is the only one with enough clout to get "official" support of services added (like Netflix already and if anyone will be able to get Hulu it probably is them). It also doesn't sound too good for additional Blu-ray support or internet radio anytime soon.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by cncb

Thanks for doing the interview, Brent. Unfortunately this just reinforces the fact that Microsoft is the only one with enough clout to get "official" support of services added (like Netflix already and if anyone will be able to get Hulu it probably is them).

Perhaps. But if that were the case MS would already have Netflix on Media Center. I don't see getting Netflix on SageTV any less likely than MC at this point. But yeah I don't see "official" Netflix coming for us in the coming months either.

And I don't think ANYONE has enough clout to get Hulu. The decision is to either hack a Hulu solution like Boxee continues to do or leave it to user/developers to do.

It also doesn't sound too good for additional Blu-ray support or internet radio anytime soon.

I think you're reading too much into that. And where else can you find the Blu-ray support we have today with the HD200s? Or ripped/streamed DVDs for that matter.

I think internet radio will be here before we know it - but that's just my guess.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Brent

But if that were the case MS would already have Netflix on Media Center.

And where else can you find the Blu-ray support we have today with the HD200s? Or ripped/streamed DVDs for that matter.

They do have Netflix in Vista Media Center (but not on extenders if that is what you are referring to). It also sounded like Blu-ray improvements were low priority.

I just got an HDMI extender for my "server" PC that I plan to try in my main viewing area so I can get Netflix, Hulu Desktop, Blu-ray playback, etc. We'll see if the pains of using a PC for this return...

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

... would be a very decent seller, and a GREAT start-up for someone's introduction to SageTV.

As I said before, the problem that I see is that many new users seem to want to use existing systems. Maybe they're using Meedio on a Windows box, or are a Snapstream user, etc. I think a lot of new users play around with Sage on their actual workstation box. I started with Sage that way, and I think a lot of other old timers started that way too. Since this kind of setup requires not only a dedicated box to run the SageTV linux distribution, but also one or more extenders, you've really increased the startup cost compared to just buying a tuner card and running Sage on your windows box.

When I started using Sage back in 2003 I certainly wouldn't have dropped $1000 on my initial system.

That being said, there were actually some interesting related pieces in the second part of the interview. Jeff mentioned improvements to the IR and firewire channel changing capabilities in the linux distribution. I think that would be very helpful. I'm not entirely sure why Sage couldn't do similar things with the windows version though. (though, I can imagine the driver signing requirement in 64-bit windows could easily complicate things)

Also, I was a little troubled that Jeff immediately talked about the hardware limitations on the extenders when the UI topic came up. Maybe he just wanted to set expectations early though. I think we all realize that the extenders will limit really fancy 3D effects and animations. But, I don't think that's really a big problem. As Brent pointed out, a lot of us are "just" looking for a more modern look and feel (I know that's a lot easier said than done). That doesn't have to involve lots of fancy effects. I think SageMC proves its perfectly possible to update the look and feel within the limitations of the extenders. In any event, it looks like some relatively significant changes to the UI are going to happen, and that's great news. I just hope Sage doesn't limit the changes to the UI under the guise of extender hardware limitations. Don't get me wrong- there might be plenty of reasons to limit changes for other reasons, but I think there are still big changes you could make and still have things run perfectly fine on the HD100/HD200.

[Taddeusz]

Just finished up reading the second half of the interview. Great interview. Very informative. Not really surprised about the Hulu news. I believe the best thing that SageTV could do right now is integrate uPnP support directly into SageTV, not just into the stand-alone portion of the HD200. That is the only thing right now that is keeping me from buying a copy of PlayOn or other uPnP software. I don't use stand-alone mode so it would be a hassle and I would be the only person in the family who would want to use it.

Very exciting that the USB SageTV includes FW tuning. I hope this may translate into bringing that support to the greater SageTV codebase rather than having to rely on code that is no longer in development.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

And I don't think ANYONE has enough clout to get Hulu. The decision is to either hack a Hulu solution like Boxee continues to do or leave it to user/developers to do.

Certainly, I don't hold it against Sage for not having Hulu/Netflix support. I think anything approaching official support for either of those two services was a pipe dream, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

But, as a sidenote, I disagree MS doesn't have the clout to get Hulu support. Microsoft is really a special case, both because of the huge sums of money at their disposal, and because they can really control the platform that runs their media center application. So, they're capable of doing enough DRM to keep Hulu happy, and, probably more importantly, they're in a position that they could help implement new types of advertisements that might not be possible on other platforms.

I think you're reading too much into that. And where else can you find the Blu-ray support we have today with the HD200s? Or ripped/streamed DVDs for that matter.

I agree with Brent. I actually got a pretty good feeling from the article on blu-ray support. It works pretty well now, and they're doing their best to expand the support to include menus/clients/etc. I suspect cncb is right that some of those things are a ways off, but I'm glad that Sage is trying right now.

[matt91]

Originally Posted by Brent

It would need a firmware update which isn't available yet. And then you would need to purchase a supported (we don't know which ones are supported yet) USB Wireless-N dongle.

Are there well known wireless-N dongles that might presumably be supported? I only ask because I just wanted to keep my eyes out for a sale in the coming weeks and months. If I get stuck with one that ends up not being supported, so be it. I could certainly use it in some other application.

Oh, and I guess I'd need a new wireless access point / router. Any suggestions? I run DD-WRT now, so I guess I should look at their supported router list.

(I realize I'm getting ahead of my self here, but I just wanted to start looking around)

[rmac321]

Originally Posted by reggie14

As I said before, the problem that I see is that many new users seem to want to use existing systems. Maybe they're using Meedio on a Windows box, or are a Snapstream user, etc. I think a lot of new users play around with Sage on their actual workstation box. I started with Sage that way, and I think a lot of other old timers started that way too.

I agree that this is how many of us started. But how often has someone seen your system and wanted to know how they could have it and you have had to talk them out of it because you didn't want to have to be their support person? I see this as a possible way for us hobbyists to be able to say to the mother-in-law, yes, you can have this and here is your shopping list/price tag. You don't offer to set it up on their existing system, you get them to buy a new box for the server, the SageTV usb dongle, an HDHR or two, however many extenders they need, and a Gigabit switch. If the price scares them away, then you're done. If it doesn't, you set up a dedicated system that is actually supportable by Sage.

It may not be the direct consumer access Jeff hopes for, but it is a lot closer than the present system.

[Brent]

Just in case anyone missed it, both part 1 and part 2 of the interview are posted.

Part 1 of 2 of the GeekTonic interview is available

Part 2 of 2 of the GeekTonic interview is available

I'll follow the interview with a more detailed story on each of the new features/topics this week, a summary of my opinion on the direction overall and then over the next few weeks a series to review the UI issues.

Oh and for those who might later ask if/when the timing of the posts slip: timing is subject to change due to this guy being way to busy etc etc.

Here's a few of my thoughts (mine, not SageTV's) for everyone to chew on:

• There are certainly a lot of reasons to be excited - some new stuff, indications that the company is listening to its customers, no signs of them venturing into new business (think snapstream) that take the focus away from enthusiasts
• The new linux media server is a good thing - even if many/most of the current users don't end up using it. I'll explain what I mean more later but basically it's an additional solution offered to a new user or user who is considering a new server build or possibly if you install for someone else. And its a step towards a plug-n-play hardware setup imo.
• Online media is difficult - really difficult for smaller companies, but not impossible. The tangle of legalities, contracts, compatibilities etc make this hard but not impossible. And I see SageTV moving (could be slowly - I just don't know yet) further into various online media.
• Wireless N is something I probably won't use, but I think it's an excellent addition and will help the HD200 become more popular.
• The UI will change. Don't know how much, but we'll see a different UI in SageTV 7. I got the impression that we can still influence the outcome of that UI so that's why I plan to address it more on the blog. Getting a consensus on that is nearly impossible, but I know we can help them improve it.
• There are undoubtedly many things (perhaps music and other stuff) they are working on that he didn't discuss with me. Don't just assume that because he didn't say something about that "thing" we are hoping for they aren't working on it.
• Not directly related to the interview, but don't forget there are a few very exciting user-based projects underway. Lots of good stuff.

I hope the interview was interesting and helpful to everyone. I really tried to get in as many of your questions as possible without taking up so much of Jeffs time that he didn't want to do another interview some day in the future. And I wanted to get a more complete feel of the history also instead of a laundry list of features so that's why it started and ended the way it did. I personally am interested in the history of SageTV as well as Jeff's setup and he did a good job of talking about those things.

[wrems]

Maybe interviews like this with Jeff can become an annual event.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by matt91

Are there well known wireless-N dongles that might presumably be supported?

Not yet. I'm guessing it will be the same type of wireless-N dongles you see for the PCH.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by rmac321

If the price scares them away, then you're done. If it doesn't, you set up a dedicated system that is actually supportable by Sage.

You make a very good point here on SageTV support. I'm still pretty skeptical that the setup would be that much easier on the SageTV linux distribution, though today's interview showed a slight glimmer of hope. But really, this could be very good from a support perspective. I know the support guy at Sage does his best given the circumstances, but my experiences haven't dealing with support haven't been spectacular. I wouldn't say they've been bad either, just not great. However, the more uniform everyone's systems are, the easier it should be for Sage to support things. Maybe they can start actively supporting the configuration of certain things, like the firewire channel changing. That would actually be a big help.

[Taddeusz]

They have been doing a spectacular job of making SageTV more stable lately. Recently the only thing that's really been making my SageTV at all unstable has been my cable box. And I believe that has to do with a weak or noisy cable signal. I have a cable amp I purchased myself but that doesn't seem to help. I think I may call Cox and see if I can either improve the signal strength or have them install one of their own amps.

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by Brent

[*]The UI will change. Don't know how much, but we'll see a different UI in SageTV 7. I got the impression that we can still influence the outcome of that UI so that's why I plan to address it more on the blog. Getting a consensus on that is nearly impossible, but I know we can help them improve it.

I've mentioned this countless times, but I truly believe XBMC is THE gold standard when it comes to UI usability, cleanliness, and features. Despite this, they are also trying to improve their UI every day. XBMC's process (example here) helped jog my mind on this. Some ideas on how we (and your blog) can help Sage include:

• Solicit "creative" feedback in the form of visual wireframes
• Solicit general feedback with focus on one specific feature at a time (aka... XBMC's video library example above... would be great to have very targeted feedback per feature / UI page / element)
• A wiki or managed list of requests, solely focused on UI improvements, that can pull input from a thread or threads (key point here is to not have feedback scattered all over, but instead to consolidate feedback into one central area that can easily be reviewed by Sage)

Originally Posted by Brent

[*]Not directly related to the interview, but don't forget there are a few very exciting user-based projects underway. Lots of good stuff.

Any chance you can use your excellent journalism skills to interview some of the bigger, transformational-in-nature, user-based projects? Perhaps a smaller, but similar interview with folks like Mike and the Phoenix team? They haven't revealed many details... but I hear it's the "Manhattan project" of user-based projects (sorry Mike... not trying to set expectations too high )
----

EDIT: PS... I'm happy to take on the 3rd item above (A wiki or managed list of requests, solely focused on UI improvements, that can pull input from a thread or threads (key point here is to not have feedback scattered all over, but instead to consolidate feedback into one central area that can easily be reviewed by Sage)) in the form of a thread that I continually update the first post for, but break it down by area within Sage (e.g. Movies, Music, TV Shows, Pictures).

[Clift]

Originally Posted by rmac321

I agree that this is how many of us started. But how often has someone seen your system and wanted to know how they could have it and you have had to talk them out of it because you didn't want to have to be their support person? I see this as a possible way for us hobbyists to be able to say to the mother-in-law, yes, you can have this and here is your shopping list/price tag. You don't offer to set it up on their existing system, you get them to buy a new box for the server, the SageTV usb dongle, an HDHR or two, however many extenders they need, and a Gigabit switch. If the price scares them away, then you're done. If it doesn't, you set up a dedicated system that is actually supportable by Sage.

It may not be the direct consumer access Jeff hopes for, but it is a lot closer than the present system.

A really nice option to something like that would be the ability to update the SageTV version when new releases come out from the extender. Then you could truly run a headless server.

[GKusnick]

Brent, this bit has me confused:

EDITORS NOTE: I got a clear indication that SageTV has stopped development on Hulu for the time being...

I'm not clear on what you mean by "a clear indication". Did Jeff say more on this than what you quoted in the writeup? Or are you reading between the lines of what he did say?