Final word on DVD .ISO support?

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by SilentBob

...and people have every right to make it a feature request.

Of course they do. And people who think it ought to rank very low on the priority list of feature requests have a right to make that case as well.

I do think it's unrealistic, though, to demand a "final answer", a once-and-for-all commitment from the devs to either do it or not do it. They're aware of the arguments pro and con, and if it someday bubbles up their list to the point where it seems like a good use of their time, they'll do it. If not, not. That's life.

Personally I don't have an entrenched position on it one way or the other. I don't do a lot of DVD ripping and burning, but last time I did it, it was a simple matter of dragging the VIDEO_TS folder from the DVD drive to the hard drive, or vice versa. So I'm not seeing a lot of room for ISOs to make the kind of dramatic ease-of-use difference that would warrant this level of passion.

[HeadHodge]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Of course they do. And people who think it ought to rank very low on the priority list of feature requests have a right to make that case as well.

I do think it's unrealistic, though, to demand a "final answer", a once-and-for-all commitment from the devs to either do it or not do it. They're aware of the arguments pro and con, and if it someday bubbles up their list to the point where it seems like a good use of their time, they'll do it. If not, not. That's life.

From a product feature standpoint, isn't this issue a moot point? (Or am I missing something?)

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...1&postcount=32


Snippet from post:

"Changes for beta version 20091014 0 include the following:



Core changes:

1. Support mounting NFS drives as import paths. To do so, choose the "Specify a network folder path" icon while browsing the network in the File Browser, then enter the path as nfs://serverip/path.
2. Added BD ISO support for standalone mode"

[SilentBob]

Originally Posted by HeadHodge

From a product feature standpoint, isn't this issue a moot point? (Or am I missing something?)

You are missing something.

What you are missing is that it only works in STANDALONE mode.

That is what seems to make this argument so ridiculous.

Obviously the feature is "important" enough to be included in the standalone firmware, but as soon as you connect the HD200 to a SageTV server, ISO mode is no longer supported, and DVDs have to be in the folder-format to be able to play.

So, on my HD200 if I want to play a DVD ISO I can either
a) go through a convoluted process to temporarily mount that ISO image on the Sage server to bypass the inability to natively play an ISO image.

b) Disconnect from the Sage server, and then use the shared network map to play the DVD ISO file over the network and then reconnect to the server once I'm done. (The wife acceptance factor [WAF] is pretty low)

c) extract all of my ISOs to VIDEO_TS folders, doubling the size of my ripped DVD library

None of these are very good solutions (IMO). And the arguments as to why this can't/shouldn't be added as a feature seem to be quite weak when this is already a feature in standalone mode (I in fact purchased the setup not realizing that ISO playback was an issue. Had I known that up front I would still be doing research to see if there is a better, more compatible solution out there. Given that I've already spent >$200 on the HD200 combo, and it will cost me < $100 to fix the problem [buying an additional hard drive], switching at this point wouldn't make much sense)

Apparently this is a feature that is only useful to people who are NOT using a SageTV server?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by SilentBob

You are missing something.

What you are missing is that it only works in STANDALONE mode.

That is what seems to make this argument so ridiculous.

Obviously the feature is "important" enough to be included in the standalone firmware, but as soon as you connect the HD200 to a SageTV server, ISO mode is no longer supported, and DVDs have to be in the folder-format to be able to play.

There's another possible explanation. It's possible SDK for the SOC they're using basically includes that functionality out of the box, so when they're "pulling" from a device, it's basically "free", ie no work to do on their part.

Where as if they're "pushing" from the Sage server, they'd need to make the SageTV PC software understand ISOs and how to handle them, which is not "free".

So, on my HD200 if I want to play a DVD ISO I can either
a) go through a convoluted process to temporarily mount that ISO image on the Sage server to bypass the inability to natively play an ISO image.

This is what essentially every "pc-involved" solution involves. Almost no PC-based solution supports playing ISOs directly. VLC and either MP or XBMC are the two exceptions I can think of.

b) Disconnect from the Sage server, and then use the shared network map to play the DVD ISO file over the network and then reconnect to the server once I'm done. (The wife acceptance factor [WAF] is pretty low)

c) extract all of my ISOs to VIDEO_TS folders, doubling the size of my ripped DVD library

You forgot d) extract to VIDEO_TS and not keep the ISOs.

None of these are very good solutions (IMO). And the arguments as to why this can't/shouldn't be added as a feature seem to be quite weak when this is already a feature in standalone mode (I in fact purchased the setup not realizing that ISO playback was an issue.

Again, the fact that it works in standalone mode does not mean it's trivial to add to the SageTV Media Center product, they are very different environments.

Had I known that up front I would still be doing research to see if there is a better, more compatible solution out there. Given that I've already spent >$200 on the HD200 combo, and it will cost me < $100 to fix the problem [buying an additional hard drive], switching at this point wouldn't make much sense)

Good luck finding anything else that supports recording TV, hardware extenders and DVD rips AT ALL.

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by SilentBob

Given that I've already spent >$200 on the HD200 combo, and it will cost me < $100 to fix the problem [buying an additional hard drive], switching at this point wouldn't make much sense)

Apparently this is a feature that is only useful to people who are NOT using a SageTV server?

I was bent out of shape over the non-support of .ISO from Day 1 - and, more generally, the lack of consistancy between standalone and SageTV modes AND the lack of sufficient explaination that said diffs exist, what they are, and why.

I still think the lack of consistancy is hurting SageTV with prospective buyers, but I bit the bullet and re-ripped everything to folders.

I find it takes about six minutes to burn a DVD from .ISO, but takes over 35 minutes to burn it by dragging/dropping the folders to the drive.

OTOH, I think re-ripping via DvdShrink 3.0 from folders to .ISO should take less than five minutes - so my time to create a DVD "hardcopy" is probably less than 15 minutes... albeit with the inconvenience of being a two-step process..... but I find myself doing that only rarely.... so folders are functionally ok with me.

Put me down as still preferring .ISO, but having embraced the folders because SageTV knows from folders.

Like I said, I think it's hurting SageTV with prospective buyers... but so are the SageTV/HD200 web pages, which are pretty horrendous. Compared to them, the .ISO thing is small change...

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

I find it takes about six minutes to burn a DVD from .ISO, but takes over 35 minutes to burn it by dragging/dropping the folders to the drive.

Completely off topic, but what the heck are you using to burn those folders? Imgburn man

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

Completely off topic, but what the heck are you using to burn those folders? Imgburn man

My first try was using Windows XP Pro's built-in funcionality: Drag the two _TS folders to MyComputer | {DVD Burner Drive} and let nature take it's course.

Problem is that it takes over 35 minutes and has problems if the total folder size is right on the DVD's size limit.

My preferred method, then becomes:

1. Use DvdShrink 3.2 to rip from the folders to a .ISO
2. Burn the .ISO using Nero 7.something (or, probably any one of several dozen other programs

Time for that, I estimate tb < 15 minutes.

But, like I said before, this is something that I hardly ever do - unlike the poster who is continually re-ripping DVDs for the kids to use on automobile trips.

ImgBurn sounds like a much-preferable alternative - especially if it is, as expected, a single-step process.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

OTOH, I think re-ripping via DvdShrink 3.0 from folders to .ISO should take less than five minutes

FWIW, there is no reason to re-rip. All you've got to do is extract the ISO to a folder of the same name. It's very simple with 7zip or WinRAR, just use "Extract to /*" or "Extract each to individual folder". You can extract all your ISOs that way.

Originally Posted by PeteCress

My first try was using Windows XP Pro's built-in funcionality: Drag the two _TS folders to MyComputer | {DVD Burner Drive} and let nature take it's course.

Problem is that it takes over 35 minutes and has problems if the total folder size is right on the DVD's size limit.

My preferred method, then becomes:

1. Use DvdShrink 3.2 to rip from the folders to a .ISO
2. Burn the .ISO using Nero 7.something (or, probably any one of several dozen other programs

Time for that, I estimate tb < 15 minutes.

But, like I said before, this is something that I hardly ever do - unlike the poster who is continually re-ripping DVDs for the kids to use on automobile trips.

ImgBurn sounds like a much-preferable alternative - especially if it is, as expected, a single-step process.

No wonder you guys like ISOs better, that's way more work for non-ISOs than necessary. Just drop the VIDEO_TS folder in a new ImgBurn project and burn. No harder IMO than burning an ISO.

[SilentBob]

Originally Posted by stanger89

There's another possible explanation. It's possible SDK for the SOC they're using basically includes that functionality out of the box, so when they're "pulling" from a device, it's basically "free", ie no work to do on their part.

Where as if they're "pushing" from the Sage server, they'd need to make the SageTV PC software understand ISOs and how to handle them, which is not "free".

There are a number of PC-based programs (including usenet programs, media players, and media servers) that support the native playback of ISOs. I'll admit that I have not yet dug under the covers of Sage enough to fully understand *how* it works, but the basic challenge of directly playing an ISO is a problem that has already been solved numerous times in other products. It can't be *that* tough of a nut to crack.

Originally Posted by stanger89

This is what essentially every "pc-involved" solution involves. Almost no PC-based solution supports playing ISOs directly. VLC and either MP or XBMC are the two exceptions I can think of.

Off the top of my head I believe MythTV and Boxee both handle ISOs without jumping through hoops.

Originally Posted by stanger89

You forgot d) extract to VIDEO_TS and not keep the ISOs.

2 things:
1) I explained in my original post why tossing the original ISOs is NOT an option for me
2) In my response post I stated: "on my HD200 if I want to play a DVD ISO I can either...." Throwing away the ISO file is not a way to play an ISO file. Therefore your "d" option is a bit insincere.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Again, the fact that it works in standalone mode does not mean it's trivial to add to the SageTV Media Center product, they are very different environments.

True, the fact that it works in standalone mode doesn't relate to the ease/difficulty of implementing it in the PC product. However, the fact that numerous other PC products easily handle the task means that it can't be *that* difficult.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Good luck finding anything else that supports recording TV, hardware extenders and DVD rips AT ALL.

You may be right, I may have NO other options that meet my other requirements, and making this sacrifice is the best compromise of the available solutions. I'm no longer looking for solutions. I've spent my money, I can make it work.

This doesn't change the fact that SageTV *could* satisfy ALL of the requirements. There is no reason that it *has* to stay broken.

I just don't understand all of the people who think they need to defend the fact that Sage DOESN'T handle ISOs. I understand people explaining to others the alternative work-arounds but it seems like the discussion always leans towards "lack of ISO is a non-issue, please go away now."

Is it *that* difficult to admit that there are certain things that make an ISO file superior to VIDEO_TS folders and to concede that some subset of users prefer ISOs due to those superiorities? What is the advantage of VIDEO_TS (other than the fact that it does work with Sage, which would be a non-advantage if ISOs also worked)?

[PeteCress]

No wonder you guys like ISOs better, that's way more work for non-ISOs than necessary. Just drop the VIDEO_TS folder in a new ImgBurn project and burn. No harder IMO than burning an ISO.

Just tried it with the DVD that failed after 35+ minutes using native XP drag/drop and which took about fifteen minutes (and a user intervention halfway through the process) via the DvdShrink|Nero 7 route.

• Pop a blank DVD into the burner drive
• DoubleClick in ImgBurn
• Click "Write files/folders to disc"
• Navigate to DVD folder
• Drag/Drop DVDs parent folder to ImgBurn's window
• Click "Yes"
• Click "Ok"
• Go do something else
• Eject the burned DVD
• Remove the burned DVD

Total time: just a hair over 10 minutes - unattended once the user clicked "Ok".

Nice!


But to be totally nit-picking about it, burning a .ISO via Nero 7 is marginally easier/faster:

• Pop a blank DVD into the burner drive
• Double-click the .ISO, and Nero comes up (or right-click it and choose Nero)
• Click "Ok"
• Go do something else
• Remove the burned, already-ejected DVD

Total time 8:14.


Still, I'll take ImgBurn.

Thanks for the pointer.

[SilentBob]

PeteCress, I'm not simply trying to prove a point, I am honestly curious....

How does the time requirement compare to using the Windows Server 2003 Resource Kit tool DVDBURN?

If you need the res kit, you can get it here:

http://www.microsoft.com/Downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9d467a69-57ff-4ae7-96ee-b18c4790cffd&displaylang=en

Syntax from the command line is:
dvdburn <drive:> <image>

I like command-line because it is easier to script with. When I thought I had ISO support, it was my plan to write a plugin that would allow my wife to burn a DVD right from the Sage interface using the remote

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by SilentBob

There are a number of PC-based programs (including usenet programs, media players, and media servers) that support the native playback of ISOs. I'll admit that I have not yet dug under the covers of Sage enough to fully understand *how* it works, but the basic challenge of directly playing an ISO is a problem that has already been solved numerous times in other products. It can't be *that* tough of a nut to crack.

I believe none of them use DirectShow for playback.

2 things:
1) I explained in my original post why tossing the original ISOs is NOT an option for me
2) In my response post I stated: "on my HD200 if I want to play a DVD ISO I can either...." Throwing away the ISO file is not a way to play an ISO file. Therefore your "d" option is a bit insincere.

The whole goal here is to play DVDs is it not...

True, the fact that it works in standalone mode doesn't relate to the ease/difficulty of implementing it in the PC product. However, the fact that numerous other PC products easily handle the task means that it can't be *that* difficult.

I wouldn't go so far as to say numerous. You've named 1 Windows based program, Boxee (a branch of XBMC). VLC is another, pretty sure neither of those use DirectShow. Don't think either of those support clients, let alone extenders (XBMC supports the original Xbox I guess).

This doesn't change the fact that SageTV *could* satisfy ALL of the requirements. There is no reason that it *has* to stay broken.

Well it could support CableCard, or Blu-ray BD-Java clients, or any number of other things too.

I just don't understand all of the people who think they need to defend the fact that Sage DOESN'T handle ISOs. I understand people explaining to others the alternative work-arounds but it seems like the discussion always leans towards "lack of ISO is a non-issue, please go away now."

Is it *that* difficult to admit that there are certain things that make an ISO file superior to VIDEO_TS folders and to concede that some subset of users prefer ISOs due to those superiorities? What is the advantage of VIDEO_TS (other than the fact that it does work with Sage, which would be a non-advantage if ISOs also worked)?

Personally I still haven't been convinced ISOs are superior in any way. I really don't mean any offense, but the "benefits" of ISOs really do seem like trivialities and non-issues.

The advantage of VIDEO_TS is it works with everything natively. It works without needing 3rd party apps to mount them.

To me putting/leaving DVD contents in an ISO image makes no more sense than keeping your digital pictures in zip files. Sure a couple apps are floating around that can view pictures in archives directly, doesn't mean it's an ideal solution. Does that make any sense?

ISOs were required at one point, as they still are for some programs with Blu-ray, and I understand many have become accustomed to using ISOs. But from what I've seen ISOs have been largely abandoned by the "community" in favor of supporting DVD structures directly. None of the "newer" players support them, basically only the players that have come from non-windows OSs. VLC is cross platform, XBMC came from the Xbox. So it's quite likely the ease of developing in DirectShow has made it "harder" to support it, but still, as you say, there's nothing preventing anyone from supporting it, other than well, lack of interest.

[toricred]

I also take exception to calling it broken. It would be broken if it had been promised to work and didn't. Nowhere did it say that ISOs were supported so it's not broken, but rather just doesn't have that feature.

[SilentBob]

Originally Posted by toricred

Nowhere did it say that ISOs were supported

Other than the release notes for the HD200 firmware.

Yes, I now realize that it is only for stand alone mode, but for a pre-purchase SageTV newb, if it supports it in stand alone mode, it connotes the idea that it would also support ISOs in extender mode. I would have even understood if the SageTV software-only product didn't support it, but to LOSE functionality going from stand-alone to connected mode was a bit of a shocker.

[The Truth]

I have just changed my mind.... I really think they should support ISOs... I just started playing some VOB subfolder DVDs and they are horrible...not smooth, jumpy, annoying... PLEASE support ISOs.. =)


VIDEO_TS = Horrible.....

=)

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by The Truth

I have just changed my mind.... I really think they should support ISOs... I just started playing some VOB subfolder DVDs and they are horrible...not smooth, jumpy, annoying... PLEASE support ISOs.. =)
=)

What are you using to play them?

Using Client, I can view them no problem over WiFi on my little 1.6ghz Atom-powered laptop. Ditto via an HD200 or VLC Media Player.

If you are using any of the above, I would look for some other factor.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by The Truth

I have just changed my mind.... I really think they should support ISOs... I just started playing some VOB subfolder DVDs and they are horrible...not smooth, jumpy, annoying... PLEASE support ISOs.. =)

How did you determine that being folders (vs ISO) was the cause?

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by toricred

I also take exception to calling it broken. It would be broken if it had been promised to work and didn't. Nowhere did it say that ISOs were supported so it's not broken, but rather just doesn't have that feature.

Here's a nit to pick: PlaceShifter will not play folder-based DVDs (at least on my installation). Client will - and that's what I use.

I'm guessing that the technically-inclined/dedicated user can invoke some juju that will enable PlaceShifter, but I'd call that not realistic for the average user.

[gplasky]

Placeshifter doesn't play DVDs-period. Never did. So the iso argument doesn't apply to Placeshifter.

Gerry

[orrd]

I too would like to see DVD ISO support. It's probably it's just a matter of time before SageTV supports it. I don't know why someone earlier in the thread kept on arguing against having this feature. There's no reason ISO's and folders can't both be supported so everyone is happy regardless of their preference.