Building a Sage HTPC - Need Tips

[greggerm]

Hello all - I have been browsing the forums here ever since I purchased SageTV a few months ago, and I am now ready to jump in and make a dedicated HTPC. I want to do it right the first time, so I am going to ask for opinions and tips.

First off, my base machine will be a current generation system, unsure if I am going to go AMD or Intel. Whatever is relatively inexpensive, QUIET, small, etc. etc. I will probably install a 3rd party audio card with digital out capability, so I can use it for DVD (DD/DTS) playback.

It will be playing back on a standard defination 27" Sony TV, with audio passing through my niiice Yamaha DD/DTS receiver.

OVERALL GOALS:

• Full features - TV and DVD playback. Music and picture gallery secondary. Live TV and recorded TV are equally important, but I hear the calls about how the recording capabilities will change my habits.
• A/V Quality - I'd like the least amount of impact on audio and video quality, especially when viewing DD and DTS-encoded DVD's. This is more directed to the signal outputs, not the recording encoding rate I choose. The
• Ease of Use - The "girlfriend test"
• Wow Factor - It should be functional AND impressive to the friends and family

VIDEO OUT QUALITY CONCERN:
It would appear that using Sage 2.0 and a PVR-350's video out capabilities give users the best picture quality when watching TV. Because I am building a new PC, I can go with pretty much any video card, so I am interested in finding out which computer video card outputs the highest quality TV-Video signal. I'm leaning towards using a video card rather than the -350 because I hope to use the box to play DVD's, and apparently there are some audio signal routing issues when using the -350.

Can someone offer opinions on the successes they've had with computer video out, and how to make it look it's best!?

DVD PLAYBACK CONCERNS:
Additionally, I'd prefer to use the HTPC as my DVD player as well. What are the gotchas when using the PC for this task? My stereo received accepts both optical and coax digital in...are there any major concerns when sending digital signals to a receiver? I haven't yet played with Sage as a DVD player (or player interface), so your input is appreciated.

MULTIPLE TUNER CONCERNS:
I have a PVR-250, and I am planning on adding another one. Depending on the video out concerns I have, it may be a -350 or a -250 (probably 250). I believe I have an older "15" PVR-250, as it shipped with a black remote control. I haven't looked at the device itself to see if it is equipped with a heatsink. (15 do not have one, and 16's DO have a heatsink, right?) I am reading that -250 v15's and -250 v16's do NOT get along well in the same computer, correct? If I have a -250 v15, where can I get another one, and will a new -350 work no problems?

GIRLFRIEND CONCERNS:
For those of you with significant others - how quickly did the ladies in your lives adjust and accept the SageTV system? Are their complaints addressable?

POWER CONSUMPTION:
Anyone notice a significant increase in their electric bill with their HTPC on 24/7? I may use some scheduling software to turn it off in the late night hours.

CONCLUSION:
So that's about it from over here. I know that all HTPC's are different, but I want to do it once and do it right. MOST critical to me is the video-out situation, as well as dual tuner.

If you can share your experiences OR point me to some obscure threads with the answers, it would be greatly appreciated. This software is absolutely great, and I hope to use it to it's fullest potential!

-Greg Germ

Edit: Added note that I am NOT using an HDTV, but a standard def Sony 27".

[carlgar]

Originally posted by greggerm

MULTIPLE TUNER CONCERNS:
I have a PVR-250, and I am planning on adding another one. Depending on the video out concerns I have, it may be a -350 or a -250 (probably 250). I believe I have an older "15" PVR-250, as it shipped with a black remote control. I haven't looked at the device itself to see if it is equipped with a heatsink. (15 do not have one, and 16's DO have a heatsink, right?) I am reading that -250 v15's and -250 v16's do NOT get along well in the same computer, correct? If I have a -250 v15, where can I get another one, and will a new -350 work no problems?

You logic is reversed concerning the heatsink. The 15 have a heat sink, the 16 does not. Yes, there is a problem mixing 15 and 16 cards. a 350 should work with your 15 250 card, but I have no direct knowledge since both of my 250's are type 16. The best places to locate another type 15 250 is too look for a swap or make offer to buy one here or look on E-bay.

[greggerm]

Is there anywhere I can see a picture of a rev15 vs. a rev16 PVR-250? I know my card has the metal shield around the tuner components, but I want to see the difference so I can make an educated purchase.

[carlgar]

The metal shield is around the tuner on the upper left of the card, The heatsink is on a chip in the lower right. See the post about a 15 available on E-bay now, it has a picture but I don't know how good it is.

[greggerm]

Just found it and printed it for reference... thanks. The pic looks good - distinctive.

[carlgar]

BTW: I think you can look at the number on the tuner sticker. A 48XXX is a type 15, a 32XXX is type 16.

[greggerm]

Yup! It's the wonders of additional research that I should have done ahead of time.

I printed out the pictures of both revisions, and I am pretty certain I have a v16 - my memory tells me that I only have coax, svideo, and remote control jacks on my backplate (I'm at work and can't check right now). I do NOT have any other audio or video inputs. That heatsink seems pretty noticable as well - I think I'd have taken notice of it before.

So it looks like rather than trouble myself with a PVR-350, I'll end up with an additional PVR-250 (or two!).

This opens the discussion to HIGH QUALITY VGA-to-TV or TV-Capable video cards.

What's the *BEST* gold standard high quality device which can get computer video onto a standard television set?! Keep in mind I do not have a video card right now, so all options are open. I've seen references to ATI 9000's and 9600's, NV FX5200's, etc. I am interested in using the DirectX9 rendering stuff for the eye candy. I also took note of "MediaMVP" being a potential help?

Your collective opinions are welcome and VERY appreciated!

[carlgar]

Originally posted by greggerm
I printed out the pictures of both revisions, and I am pretty certain I have a v16 - my memory tells me that I only have coax, svideo, and remote control jacks on my backplate (I'm at work and can't check right now). I do NOT have any other audio or video inputs. That heatsink seems pretty noticable as well - I think I'd have taken notice of it before.

It may not be as obvious as you think, I was surprised by my 350. I did not notice the heatsink on it until I pulled it from the computer and really looked at the card. Since the heatsink is black just like the chip it does not stand out. However, when looking for the fins are obvious. Actually, feeling the top of the chip may be best, the chip top is much smoother than the tops of the heatsink fins. Looking at the picture, it does look like a 15, but I would not trust that alone. I believe your original comments about the black remote indicating its age is a very good indicator that you do have a type 15.

[greggerm]

Well, it does appear that mine is a type 15.. While it doesn't have the ports in the picture, it sure does have the heatsink on the chipset.

I'll be looking to trade it for a 16 out here soon. But before I do, I'm looking for opinions on the video out capability of modern video cards... anyone?!

Thanks for the help, carlgar...

[AJ Bertelson]

The woman loves it.

Be warned though. Once it is all setup and running never try tweak it or anything.

[greggerm]

...which is PRECICELY why I want to do it right the first time!

[TunaBoo]

It is hard to explain picture quality stuff. I have a similar TV, and a FX5200, and it works great. The PQ on the TV is better than with no PVR at all (I record at 3 gigs an hour for now).

If you go something nforce based with svideo out, that will be both reasonable prices, and the svideo may be plenty good for you (and the sound on the nforce kicks ars). Or, you can spend some more for a nice intel motherboard (make sure to get intel chipsets, not via), and some form of FX5200ish video card.

Lots of people hear swear by the 350, but a lot spend countless hours trying to make it work right. I just went with what works...

[jominor]

Originally posted by greggerm
Hello all - I have been browsing the forums here ever since I purchased SageTV a few months ago, and I am now ready to jump in and make a dedicated HTPC. I want to do it right the first time, so I am going to ask for opinions and tips.

First off, my base machine will be a current generation system, unsure if I am going to go AMD or Intel. Whatever is relatively inexpensive, QUIET, small, etc. etc. I will probably install a 3rd party audio card with digital out capability, so I can use it for DVD (DD/DTS) playback.

It will be playing back on a standard defination 27" Sony TV, with audio passing through my niiice Yamaha DD/DTS receiver.

OVERALL GOALS:

• Full features - TV and DVD playback. Music and picture gallery secondary. Live TV and recorded TV are equally important, but I hear the calls about how the recording capabilities will change my habits.
• A/V Quality - I'd like the least amount of impact on audio and video quality, especially when viewing DD and DTS-encoded DVD's. This is more directed to the signal outputs, not the recording encoding rate I choose. The
• Ease of Use - The "girlfriend test"
• Wow Factor - It should be functional AND impressive to the friends and family

VIDEO OUT QUALITY CONCERN:
It would appear that using Sage 2.0 and a PVR-350's video out capabilities give users the best picture quality when watching TV. Because I am building a new PC, I can go with pretty much any video card, so I am interested in finding out which computer video card outputs the highest quality TV-Video signal. I'm leaning towards using a video card rather than the -350 because I hope to use the box to play DVD's, and apparently there are some audio signal routing issues when using the -350.

Can someone offer opinions on the successes they've had with computer video out, and how to make it look it's best!?

DVD PLAYBACK CONCERNS:
Additionally, I'd prefer to use the HTPC as my DVD player as well. What are the gotchas when using the PC for this task? My stereo received accepts both optical and coax digital in...are there any major concerns when sending digital signals to a receiver? I haven't yet played with Sage as a DVD player (or player interface), so your input is appreciated.

MULTIPLE TUNER CONCERNS:
I have a PVR-250, and I am planning on adding another one. Depending on the video out concerns I have, it may be a -350 or a -250 (probably 250). I believe I have an older "15" PVR-250, as it shipped with a black remote control. I haven't looked at the device itself to see if it is equipped with a heatsink. (15 do not have one, and 16's DO have a heatsink, right?) I am reading that -250 v15's and -250 v16's do NOT get along well in the same computer, correct? If I have a -250 v15, where can I get another one, and will a new -350 work no problems?

GIRLFRIEND CONCERNS:
For those of you with significant others - how quickly did the ladies in your lives adjust and accept the SageTV system? Are their complaints addressable?

POWER CONSUMPTION:
Anyone notice a significant increase in their electric bill with their HTPC on 24/7? I may use some scheduling software to turn it off in the late night hours.

CONCLUSION:
So that's about it from over here. I know that all HTPC's are different, but I want to do it once and do it right. MOST critical to me is the video-out situation, as well as dual tuner.

If you can share your experiences OR point me to some obscure threads with the answers, it would be greatly appreciated. This software is absolutely great, and I hope to use it to it's fullest potential!

-Greg Germ

Edit: Added note that I am NOT using an HDTV, but a standard def Sony 27".

For video quality, I am using the PVR 250. The quality on my standard 33" Sony is excellent. The channels, for me, are better than the live signal. The choice of a decoder is important. I use the RAVISENT decoder that comes with my ATI Radeon 8500. This card is HW acelerated as opposed to the PowerDVD decoder I first tried. The difference between the two was significant. The next significant change(for beta two this time) was using the color calibration. If you don't like to use betas, I recommend this release when it goes final.

For DVD playback, I actually compress all my movies using Divx. The quality is indistinguishable from DVDs. Until Sage gives better folder support, I use Windows Media Player for playback.

For multi-tuner, I use two PVRs 250. I had a problem with the v15 and v16 250s, but traded with someone on this forum for his 16. If you have a problem, you could try this. The people on this forum seem pretty trustworthy. Regardless, with two tuners, the systems really hits its stride. You can watch live and record simultaneously. You get fewer conflicts. If you decide to use the client(which I do from time to time), both parties can change channels. I highly recommend the second tuner.

For the girlfriend( or in my case wife), even with 1.4, the assimilation time was nil. In fact, when the demo was over, she asked me, when I was going to buy it. As long as a good remote is available, you won't have a problem. Heck, I wanted a good remote. I do put Sage to sleep at night, via the power button on the remote. Currently, this means I use the mouse to turn it back on. The wife has no problem with this. Live tv, recording, pausing, etc... all make this slight issue trivial. And apparently, there are ways around it.

For power, shrug, I haven't noticed a problem. I think that the monitor is the biggest power consumer of the system, so just running 24/7 doesn't cause any issues I've noticed.

I had guest over, until I showed them the Windows XP desktop, they didn't realized that the TV was running through the computer. By the time I showed the tiimeshifting, favorites, and Divx playback, the "wows" were there.

Go for it.

[greggerm]

Here's an update from the spring -
For all those reading these forums debating whether or not to jump into HTPC's - by all means do it. PVR's really DO change your TV habits for the better. You can watch what you want, when you want it.

I settled on recycling an old processor but purchasing a new Nforce2 equipped mobo. I purchased more memory and a newer video card. I know it was an nVidia based card, but it was a while ago and the exact chipset escapes me. Using the S-Video out port, the display is good. While not *PERFECT* like S-video from a DVD player, it is more than acceptable. I also upgraded to a large 200 GB hard drive, and attached an extra 80 GB drive (system and pictures library) and an extra 120 GB drive (music library) to the pile. All three drives are network shared so I can jump on from my desktop, harvest videos to edit and reencode, as well as access the music library.

it's all in the Antec HTPC black and silver lowish profile case. Looks SHARP, and most folks don't notice that it is a computer. I painted my DVD-R drive bezel a matching silver color, and it blends in perfectly. Noise is minimal due to the fact it's all behind the glass doors of an entertainment center, although when I first started heat was a MAJOR issue. I had to cut some large holes in the rear of the ent. center in line with the air intake and exhaust. Now the computer is happy and cool - or at least as cool as she can be.

I started my adventure with two PVR-250 tuners, but quickly dropped in a third. I find that three is the magic number for me. Hardly ever a conflict in recording.

As far as girlfriend factors go, I had some basic training to do. But now that she knows it (it only took a week or two), she loves it. Although there is still some training needed when it comes to how Sage auto-deletes shows, she has been very accepting of the technology. I tried to update to a new STV recently and got shot down hardcore because of the change in layout and interface.

Power consumption at the apartment took a noticable jump. I now use an automatic shutdown program to literally turn the HTPC OFF around 2:00 AM, then I have the BIOS of the computer powering it on a few hours later. Yeah, it's only powered down for a few hours, but something is better than nothing. I am still trying to figure out how to get the latest Sage build to standby as advertised.

In the end, I spent (a lot!) more money than I was expecting to on hardware, but I feel I am getting more out of it than a TiVo could ever give me. After 8 months or so of ownership and use, my Sage HTPC is only getting better. Gleaning ideas from the forums, I am now taking a stab at MP4/DivX style reencoding of my DVD's, to place them on the server for instant access.

Back to seeking new ideas,
-Greggerm

[Fluffdaddy]

Thanks for the update. I'm thinking on Building my own mid-level box to replace the cheap hardware store bought unit i have now.

[korben_dallas]

Gregger,

Which remote are you using? Also, can you share a pic of your case in the etertainment center?

[greggerm]

I'll snap some pics when I get home from work...

As far as remotes go, I am "recycling" my sorta-old Marantz RC2000 Mk II remote.



I had it fully programmed for my preexisting HT components, so I just added SAGE to my "DSS/TV" segment and voila - instant Sage remote. I based my programming on the Happauge remotes (I have both old and new style, so I was able to essentially DOUBLE my button count by using the unique numbers and codes for each)

Of course, I am now wired to this remote, so unless I can figure out a way to get other programs controlled by the Happauge remotes, I am stuck to working within sage. I've debated going with those USB-IR thingies, but haven't pulled that trigger yet.

Of course, I am eyeballing the Marantz RC5000 now - but I haven't been able to justify the price vs. the function yet.

Pics to come!
-Greg

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by greggerm

Of course, I am now wired to this remote, so unless I can figure out a way to get other programs controlled by the Happauge remotes, I am stuck to working within sage. I've debated going with those USB-IR thingies, but haven't pulled that trigger yet.

I must have a radar to detect remote comments on the forum... beyond editing irremote.ini, there is also a Girder plugin for the Hauppauge IR receiver. BUT, it would need to be rewritten to accept more than just the buttons on the original Hauppauge remote. (Just in case anyone is interested in doing so. )

- Andy