SiliconDust To Announce CableCard Product?

[jquinlan]

How about the new HDHomeRun device that support CableCARD?
Will SAGE get it?

"HDHomeRun's CableCARD implementation lives up to the brand"

* merged 3 *

[tomfisk]

Originally Posted by jquinlan

How about the new HDHomeRun device that support CableCARD?
Will SAGE get it?

According to the press release on the SiliconDust website (http://www.silicondust.com/press), it'll be Windows Media Center 7.

[mwareman]

Originally Posted by tomfisk

According to the press release on the SiliconDust website (http://www.silicondust.com/press), it'll be Windows Media Center 7.

According to 'jasonl':
"Alternative programs: If the channel is flagged with copy protection it will definitely require CableLabs-approved software (which currently means WMC 7) to receive. We are working with CableLabs to determine the usability of copy-freely channels in alternative programs."

http://www.silicondust.com/forum/vie...r=asc&start=75

Heres hoping CableLabs allow it... (not holding my breath though..)

[Brent]

Originally Posted by mwareman

According to 'jasonl':
"Alternative programs: If the channel is flagged with copy protection it will definitely require CableLabs-approved software (which currently means WMC 7) to receive. We are working with CableLabs to determine the usability of copy-freely channels in alternative programs."

http://www.silicondust.com/forum/vie...r=asc&start=75

Heres hoping CableLabs allow it... (not holding my breath though..)

If it can be done (using it on other programs like SageTV) silicondust is the company to make it happen on the tuner end. I'm hoping the SageTV guys stop by the SiliconDust booth this week.

It's a long-shot in my eyes though.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by mwareman

According to 'jasonl':
"Alternative programs: If the channel is flagged with copy protection it will definitely require CableLabs-approved software (which currently means WMC 7) to receive. We are working with CableLabs to determine the usability of copy-freely channels in alternative programs."

http://www.silicondust.com/forum/vie...r=asc&start=75

Heres hoping CableLabs allow it... (not holding my breath though..)

Yeah, when I asked the question about that on their forum I was expecting an answer along the lines of "Sorry, Windows 7 only." I know it's a long-shot, but I was really happy to hear that SiliconDust is at least exploring the possibility of getting this working on other platforms.

[vikingisson]

ugg, for a second I had a moment of hope. I don't keep up with cable card since it has been useless to me but this almost sounded good. So there might be a device that should act like another device they have that already works with sage but this one might still be shackled by the same DRM nonsense?

Perhaps the pc pvr market is too small for them to consider but this makes no sense. As it is I don't have any kind of cable tv service because it isn't worth it to me unless I can gain control with sage or some other device of my choosing. Long long ago it was ok to tune basic analog service but since going digital and making analog smaller and smaller it became pointless. My provider offers nothing on QAM. I won't use their box even with an HD-PVR, that's already used for FTA sat channels and I'm not buying another one. I would consider a network dual tuner if it worked without pain and suffering.

So they lost me as a subscriber a long time ago and still don't want me back. I'm reasonable with my wishes, simply want control like I did for decades. Oh well, back to just free content until pay service is useful.

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by mwareman

According to 'jasonl':
"Alternative programs: If the channel is flagged with copy protection it will definitely require CableLabs-approved software (which currently means WMC 7) to receive. We are working with CableLabs to determine the usability of copy-freely channels in alternative programs."

The next logical question for me is, how does one know which channels their cable provider flags with copy protection, and which channels are copy-freely? Is there a website I can find this out on? Is there something I can do on my Comcast cable box to figure this out?

PS... CableLabs and the word "usability" should never go in the same sentence...

[Skirge01]

I don't believe that information is readily available. Perhaps it's hidden somewhere in the EPG data, but I doubt it. I don't think providers want to "advertise" what they're limiting. This is similar to how people have been bitten in the past by the broadcast flag, when it stopped them from even recording a show in the first place.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by LehighBri

The next logical question for me is, how does one know which channels their cable provider flags with copy protection, and which channels are copy-freely? Is there a website I can find this out on? Is there something I can do on my Comcast cable box to figure this out?

If you can get to the diagnostics page your Comcast HD cable box then there is a field for the copy protection flag on each channel. I'm not sure how accurate it is. Last time I checked, everything was marked copy freely in my area. But, not all of those channels worked over firewire. I think it's fairly reliable though.

If SiliconDust can convince CableLabs that there's no harm to letting other applications look at copy-freely programs (and I think that's a big if), then it probably makes sense for SiliconDust to use their online channel database to tell people what they're likely to get. It's not perfect, but it's something. One tricky detail is that I think some cable companies set the copy protection flag on a program-by-program basis, not channel-by-channel.

[Djc208]

If I understand the literature I've seen it's not that WMC7 is the only software approved, it's that Windows 7 is the only software that has the proper DRM controls built into it to allow the CC feeds to be handled.

Sage might be able to write something that could access and control the CC tuner and see the output but it would have to either be in W7 (since it already has the proper secure data paths for the CC signal) or develop its own secure DRM path through whatever OS they decide to implement it on (and get CableLabs certification).

Even if they do the former they would then probably be limited to whatever limitations Microsoft is stuck with since it's their DRM pathway Sage is using.

This is basically the same as HDCP on BD. If the studios started activating HDCP on the disks then Vista and W7 would be the only two OSs that could play back a BD disk because those are the only two OS's I know of that have the approved secure data channels built into the OS. I'm not even sure if Slysoft would let you watch on XP or other OS in that case.

I could be completely off, this is just my understanding of how the tech works.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Djc208

Sage might be able to write something that could access and control the CC tuner and see the output but it would have to either be in W7 (since it already has the proper secure data paths for the CC signal) or develop its own secure DRM path through whatever OS they decide to implement it on (and get CableLabs certification).

The extenders throw a wrench in any plan like this. Even if Sage could piggy back on things in Windows 7 to get official support for cable card, they'd need to do more work to get it working on the extenders.

What I'm saying is that as long as cable card support is limited to programs that are marked copy-freely, DRM doesn't become an issue. The cable card tuners aren't wrapping programs marked copy-freely in any DRM. So, video recordings are already getting sent over USB or ethernet in the clear. With that being the case, why not let any application access the USB or network tuners, as long as they're only given access to the programs marked copy-freely. Actually, you could give them access to copy protected programing too, it's just that those will get wrapped in DRM so third-party apps like Sage wouldn't actually be able to play them back.

As long as what comes out of the cable card tuner is encrypted when it needs to be, I don't see any harm in letting any application control the cable card tuner. Unless I'm horribly mistaken, there's no new security or piracy threat.

To some extent, the current cable card plugin for Sage follows this basic approach. It lets Sage control the tuner indirectly by controlling Windows 7 Media Center. I would just like to get away from the Windows 7 requirement, and get some sort of (limited) official support in Sage.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by vikingisson

ugg, for a second I had a moment of hope. I don't keep up with cable card since it has been useless to me but this almost sounded good. So there might be a device that should act like another device they have that already works with sage but this one might still be shackled by the same DRM nonsense?

Exactly CableCard == DRM Nonsense.

Perhaps the pc pvr market is too small for them to consider but this makes no sense.

Cable Labs exists because it was mandated by the FCC, not because the industry wanted it.

My provider offers nothing on QAM. I won't use their box even with an HD-PVR, that's already used for FTA sat channels and I'm not buying another one.

Why are you using an HD PVR for FTA, you should be able to pull that directly with a tuner.

Originally Posted by Djc208

If I understand the literature I've seen it's not that WMC7 is the only software approved, it's that Windows 7 is the only software that has the proper DRM controls built into it to allow the CC feeds to be handled.

Windows Media DRM10 is the only PC DRM system approved for CableCard recordings, and 7MC (and maybe WMP) is the only PVR software that supports it. That's the issue.

Sage might be able to write something that could access and control the CC tuner and see the output but it would have to either be in W7 (since it already has the proper secure data paths for the CC signal) or develop its own secure DRM path through whatever OS they decide to implement it on (and get CableLabs certification).

Actually I think windows 7 itself isn't a requirement, at least not with the new CableCard home run device. These "tuners" work by converting from cable encryption to WM DRM10 inside the tuner, and passing the DRM'd stream to the PC that requested it (there must be some handshaking to go with it), so in theory 3rd party apps could license WM DRM10 from MS and use it. That would probably be the way to go, but I'm not sure what the licensing issues are for implementing WM DRM10, especially on hardware devices.

Even if they do the former they would then probably be limited to whatever limitations Microsoft is stuck with since it's their DRM pathway Sage is using.

Sage doesn't use one, that's one of the problems.

This is basically the same as HDCP on BD. If the studios started activating HDCP on the disks then Vista and W7 would be the only two OSs that could play back a BD disk because those are the only two OS's I know of that have the approved secure data channels built into the OS.

XP does via COP, you just need special drivers. HDCP has always been required for digital output of BD.

I'm not even sure if Slysoft would let you watch on XP or other OS in that case.

It does.

[vikingisson]

Actually, you could give them access to copy protected programing too, it's just that those will get wrapped in DRM so third-party apps like Sage wouldn't actually be able to play them back.

Then it's not worth doing at all. If I'm paying for the content then I want to watch it any way I please. Sage or not I'm ultimately going to watch it on the tv or pc. I'm not selling DVDs in the market. Their restrictions of provider PVRs or Win7 or anything else is unacceptable. Therefore I'm not a customer.

Why are you using an HD PVR for FTA, you should be able to pull that directly with a tuner.

Because I want better than S-Video capture. Getting a pc based sat card in NA much less making it work in sage is a painful task I haven't looked into yet. And if I decide to buy a sub then I'm in the same ugly mess that cable tv is.

Innovation is being held back by nonsense on all fronts. I can appreciate the content providers goal of protection but they have gone way too far and prevent a relatively small market from access and the larger market is limited to single sourced crap that doesn't interest me at all. For similar reasons I also didn't have a cell phone for over 7 years and lived happily with my own VoIP server, but a generous client pushed one on me and thanks to Android it is almost tolerable. I don't have cable tv, sat tv, landline phone, or internet from the big boys. I don't have any of the proprietary services as cool as they might be but forcing another box on me that isn't free to connect properly just doesn't make me want to spend the money. Sad really but such is life these days.

The irony is that by far the cleanest capture technique and the best HD quality is from the oldest video source, OTA. Cheap card that just works. How long before that goes away or they encrypt that too.... OTA transitioned into the digital age much better than cable and satellite.

[evilpenguin]

Interesting comment at engadget from someone who sounds like they know what they're talking about.

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/01/07/hd...ents/24546628/

Interesting. From the gallery I can see:

• UBICOM 71xx series network processor. A newer version of the processor in the HDHomeRun.
• The RTL8211 NIC supports Gigabit Ethernet. Forget about network congestion.
• USB-A port means it's clearly for a tuning adapter and NOT a host interface. So this tuner can handle the TA itself. Very nice.
• The reason you see 3 tuners is because there actually ARE 3 tuners: Two tuners for QAM and one for the OOB data channel.

This tuner is very good news for the Mac and Linux community. Here's why:

CableCARDs are bound to the device they are paired with. In this case, the tuner itself, not any of the devices the tuner is connected to.

All of the authorization and decryption is handled inside the CableCARD's secure processor, not on the PC or the tuner. Video comes out of the CableCARD unencrypted, but to be compliant the device _must_ apply some form of protection to content that has the Copy Control Information (CCI) flags set. (Windows Media DRM is used to be Media Center compatible.)

All CableCARD tuners are in fact networked uPnP devices. Even the ATI tuner appears as a USB network adapter, gets an IP address, and talks to the host over uPnP.

So, there's nothing to prevent the tuners from being used by different PCs at different times, as long as the DRM is enforced when the CCI says it must be.

However, (on my cable system, at least) most of the non-premium channels do not have the CCI flags set. Movie channel are usually the ones that have CCI: HBO, SHO, MAX.. the only standard digital channels I've seen with CCI are AMC and AMC-HD.

If the CCI isn't set, the video can be streamed over the network in the clear. None of the uPnP control is encrypted. which means there is absolutely no reason why MythTV, for example, couldn't talk to it and get an unencrypted stream for any subscribed channel with non-CCI content.

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

Interesting comment at engadget from someone who sounds like they know what they're talking about.

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/01/07/hd...ents/24546628/

How do we sign that commenter up to develop for Sage??? Wow.

[vikingisson]

Originally Posted by LehighBri

How do we sign that commenter up to develop for Sage??? Wow.

really.

I'm still not clear and neither is he on what would be in the clear and what isn't. Sounds like a crap shoot (Vegas, go figure). I'd be perfectly happy if Basic or Extended Basic was 100% in the clear, streams to sage at source quality, and channel changing was fast and flawless. But who knows, my local system might DRM all but a handful of locals and then only at 480i 4x3. OTA is better in that case.

a tiny bit of hope.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by vikingisson

really.

I'm still not clear and neither is he on what would be in the clear and what isn't. Sounds like a crap shoot (Vegas, go figure). I'd be perfectly happy if Basic or Extended Basic was 100% in the clear, streams to sage at source quality, and channel changing was fast and flawless. But who knows, my local system might DRM all but a handful of locals and then only at 480i 4x3. OTA is better in that case.

a tiny bit of hope.

I think that unless the FCC or some other government agency steps in and mandates specifically how the flags must be set (and I doubt they will do that), it will be wildly inconstant, just like FireWire and Clear-QAM are now.

I have Comcast and for me, AMC (SD) is one of the only basic cable channels that is or has ever been available in the clear via QAM (while the poster above said that AMC was the only one that was encrypted for him).

I see from these posts that a lot of people (even other Comcast customers) were able to get pretty much all of their basic cable channels for a while via clear QAM, and now there are some who can't get any...

[vikingisson]

Originally Posted by Tiki

I think that unless the FCC or some other government agency steps in and mandates specifically how the flags must be set (and I doubt they will do that), it will be wildly inconstant, just like FireWire and Clear-QAM are now.

Agreed and is the same issue with cell phones and a lot of other industries. It is in their (government) interest to keep the status quo of confusion, fear and to support ever more crippling tech. They simply like the money more than being open and consumer friendly.

Speaking of firewire I had to laugh. All this PR over USB 3, firewire has been around for a long time and very little to plug into it. And when I see mention of using it to tune channels on a small selection of STBs I almost want to cry at the waste of potential.

I'd rather not have mandated specs for things like this. It should simply be the right thing to do. Where is my Google Cable Co, the one that allows me to connect simply, digitally, and cost effectively?

[TallMomof2]

From what I've read over on The Green Button, flags are set by the operators it's not mandated by the FCC. It seems that Comcast sets the Copy Once flag for most of their digital channels but that varies from market to market. FIOS, OTOH, only flags the premium channels such as HBO and ShowTime.

I'm interested in the upcoming CC devices because it should be a heckuva lot simpler to use and maintain than the HD-PVR. My biggest problem with the HD-PVR is channel changes. I never could get firewire to work and am still struggling with the USB-UIRT. Even if Sage could access the non-flagged channels that would cut down on my dependence on my HD-PVR. I really don't want to move to WMC because of the lack of a softsled solution. I want to watch what I want to watch when I want to watch it and where I want to watch it. That means no stinking DRM.

[mr_lore]

I just thought I'd share that I spoke to the HDHomerun guys at CES this morning and I saw the cablecard demo unit, I mentioned SageTV and they said they were in talks with them and again later in the show about a method for SageTV that would use Windows 7 media center as the recording engine and then pass that to SageTV much like the DVB Link app I am thinking. So atleast its on their radar and not all hope is lost!