HD-200 vs Tivo

[Newman]

I know, I know. This is a Sage forum but I want to hear from those that
have had Tivo's and went to HD-220 and STV MC.

We don't watch a ton of TV but I have wanted a PVR for a long time. I
understand the HD-200 has more features than Tivo and I really like the
options Sage presents. I'm looking for PVR, Netflix, and file streaming
(music, photos, ripped movies) as my primary features. Copying shows to
DVD and online content are pluses. Convenience for the family is a must
also.

To go the Sage route, I'll need the HD-200/MC bundle ($224), a HD-PVR
($200), PlayOn (for Netflix-$40) and upgrade the PC for HD viewing. Subtract the PC costs, I'm already at the price of a Tivo and 3 year sub. and don't need to run anything but a CAT5 cable to the home office.

My head is spinning! Who can convince me Sage is the way to go?

[GKusnick]

Just to be clear, the HD200 is not a Tivo competitor. It's a playback-only device with no recording capability.

To be able to record, you must use the SageTV Media Center software. All the recording happens on the PC. Whether you then watch TV on the PC or use an HD200 for playback is a separate question. (You can of course use the HD200 to interface with the SageTV software and set up recordings and so forth. But you don't need an HD200 for that; you can do all that from any PC on your LAN.)

That said, for me the key points in favor of Sage are:

* Being able to centralize all the recording and media library functions on one machine, and then distribute content to any screen throughout the house.

* Unlimited expandability to as many tuners and playback locations as you need.

* Massive customizability and skinnability through third-party add-ons. (I find the Tivo UI annoying.)

* No DRM.

* Automatic commerical skipping is a popular add-on, but not one that's important to me.

No doubt others will add any points I've missed.

[ericscottf]

If file streaming is a priority, i don't think tivo is your best bet.
CMIIW, but tivo won't stream some random file from your pc. At least, it didn't when i owned one.
I also greatly prefer the "there's a way to do nearly anything" nature of sage, and i was never happy with the constrained interface on tivo.

[Skirge01]

Given the SageTV setup I have, love, and would need to be pried from my cold, dead hands, it may be surprising to hear me say that you may be better off with a Tivo.

If convenience is what you're after, then Tivo is probably the best route. It's an all-in-one solution that "just works". Now, if you're the type of person who loves to mess with computers and configure everything to the nth degree, then SageTV is definitely where you should be heading. I won't say that SageTV is difficult to use or requires a lot of maintenance, but it's definitely not the "hands-off" experience you'd get from a Tivo.

It's a question of what you want. If the things that Greg mentioned appeal to you and you're willing to get your hands dirty, then there's simply nothing like SageTV.

[wrems]

You mentioned upgrading your computer for HD viewing. If you are going to use the HD200 which it sounds like you are considering then your computer/server doesn't need to be much. All the heavy lifting is done by the HD200 so your computer is left twiddling its thumbs, very little processing is done on the server. That may be a way to save some dough... Also, there are mixed reviews about the viability of HD200 and the USB wireless adapters. This may or may not work in your situation depending on layout of your home and such, this could save you the hassle of routing cat5. I'm doing that right now and believe me it can be a pita.

IMO, the extensibility of Sage is the best part. Having everything centrally located and accessible is crucial. You can add hardware to your liking and as you need it. Having movies at your fingertips is also another great feature no fumbling through stacks of DVD's and BD's.

[autoboy]

SageTV Advantages:
Unlimited tuners
NO DRM
very configurable
Centrally located content that can be streamed to multiple TVs in the house
ability to play almost any file format
placeshifting
etc.
The advantages actually keep going and going and going depending on what you want and how much work you put into your setup.

Tivo Advantages:
Simple hands off approach that just works for up to 2 digital cable tuners.
Thats all i can think of since I don't operate a Tivo anymore.

But, if you are the kind of person that wants something set up in a few minutes time, then a TIVO is a great option. You could always buy a HD200 (or WD or Patriot set top box) and use it in stand alone mode to play ripped movies and other downloaded content along with your Tivo for TV and Netflix. I love SageTV, but it is a bit of a hobby compared to a Tivo that is just an appliance. Its not that SageTV takes a long time to setup or anything, it's just that it takes more planning and you end up wanting to keep upgrading and playing with it.

[Newman]

The way Skirge01 put it seems to ring through all these forums. I have come back to Sage several times in my quest for 'more-from-the-couch' TV viewing and entertainment. I've been reading a lot and trying to understand differences between media players, HTPC's and DVR's to find the best solution that works in our house.

Computer tinkering is not a strong point of mine (like registry edits or customizations) but I do not mind it (..with support). But if PC steps are required between functions or each time say a movie is streamed from the PC, the wife will disapprove and I will be the only one using it. We tried using the TV for a display before using Windows MCE and it turned into a mess. Being a woman, she never forgets.

@wrems: I was under the impression to watch HD with the HD-PVR and STV MC more PC power was required. I understood that my current P4 2.6G could handle SD fine. That said, I have an older version of Windows MCE 2001 and only supports as high as Media Player 10. PlayOn and Tivo and maybe even Sage require MP 11 or higher so I plan to upgrade anyway.

The points made so far are all one's I have considered and are much appreciated. Like autoboy said “you end up wanting to keep upgrading and playing with it..” Much of me wants that (FUN!) but don't really need another hobby. The wife and kids want the “it just works”. So of course I am no closer to a decision yet tonight.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Newman

The way Skirge01 put it seems to ring through all these forums. I have come back to Sage several times in my quest for 'more-from-the-couch' TV viewing and entertainment. I've been reading a lot and trying to understand differences between media players, HTPC's and DVR's to find the best solution that works in our house.

Computer tinkering is not a strong point of mine (like registry edits or customizations) but I do not mind it (..with support). But if PC steps are required between functions or each time say a movie is streamed from the PC, the wife will disapprove and I will be the only one using it. We tried using the TV for a display before using Windows MCE and it turned into a mess. Being a woman, she never forgets.

there's no 'PC steps' to mess with with sage (after configuration). To watch a movie on the server, you browse to it in the on-screen media library, using the remote control, and click play... that's it.

Originally Posted by Newman

@wrems: I was under the impression to watch HD with the HD-PVR and STV MC more PC power was required. I understood that my current P4 2.6G could handle SD fine. That said, I have an older version of Windows MCE 2001 and only supports as high as Media Player 10. PlayOn and Tivo and maybe even Sage require MP 11 or higher so I plan to upgrade anyway.

To watch HD-PVR recordings ON THE PC, then, yes, it would take more than the P4 2.6G. However, that process or is more than powerful enough to stream HD-PVR recordings to another device for playback (be it another PC on the network, running SageTVClient, or an HD-200 Media Extender). As for Media Player versions, that really doesn't matter at all when dealing with sage, as it simply doesn't use it.

Originally Posted by Newman

The points made so far are all one's I have considered and are much appreciated. Like autoboy said “you end up wanting to keep upgrading and playing with it..” Much of me wants that (FUN!) but don't really need another hobby. The wife and kids want the “it just works”. So of course I am no closer to a decision yet tonight.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

there's no 'PC steps' to mess with with sage (after configuration). To watch a movie on the server, you browse to it in the on-screen media library, using the remote control, and click play... that's it.

This is precisely what I was getting at. Once you've got everything set up how you want it, yes, this is the experience... and it's awesome! But, it takes time and effort to get there. With Tivo, you unbox it, hook it up, activate it, and it pretty much works after an hour or so. I don't think anyone here will try to tell you SageTV takes "an hour or so" to get set up.

@Newman: One thing you didn't mention is who your cable provider is. This may change things.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

To watch HD-PVR recordings ON THE PC, then, yes, it would take more than the P4 2.6G. However, that process or is more than powerful enough to stream HD-PVR recordings to another device for playback

That's true for SageTV recordings, however he's also interesting in netflix streaming via playon. Playon can be very CPU hungry, and I doubt a 2.6GHz P4 would work very well. This is because Playon (annoyingly) transcodes everything streamed through it to MPEG2, and that requires some heavy lifting. Even worse, it is now rendering the Hulu flash video to an off-screen framebuffer, and then re-encoding it since they can't seem to decrypt things anymore. Since this change, Hulu has been so jerky as to be unwatchable for me. I have a 2.6GHz athlon64 x2, and I'm thinking about upgrading to a core i5 to improve the quality of hulu (or just going back to rapdishare).

Drew

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

This is precisely what I was getting at. Once you've got everything set up how you want it, yes, this is the experience... and it's awesome!

I was reading about all the plugin's and SageMC last night. Is it really ever just set up how you want it?

Originally Posted by Skirge01

@Newman: One thing you didn't mention is who your cable provider is. This may change things.

Cox cable. They are all digital now AFAIK.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

To watch HD-PVR recordings ON THE PC, then, yes, it would take more than the P4 2.6G.

Does the HD-PVR record both SD and HD in AVCHD?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Newman

I was reading about all the plugin's and SageMC last night. Is it really ever just set up how you want it?

I know My basic configuration hasn't changed in a numbe of years. But I'm a Form follows function kind of guy. I pretty much have just the Basic Interface, with a few small add-ons (comskip, external blu-ray, ,etc)

Originally Posted by Newman

Does the HD-PVR record both SD and HD in AVCHD?

Yes. It encodes everything to H.264

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by Newman

I was reading about all the plugin's and SageMC last night. Is it really ever just set up how you want it?

LOL! You've found us out! You're absolutely right. There's always something new being released, whether it's some great new import that catches our eye or simply a SageTV upgrade. (BMT4, Ortus, SageTV7, etc.) Seriously, though, for the most part, my system stays fairly static. But, it took over a year to get to that point. I have my standard imports which I can't live without and that's it. I don't upgrade to any early releases.

If simplicity is what you're after, go Tivo. If you're looking for a new hobby, come join us in SageTV nivana! Something to consider is the potential hardware failure for something like Tivo. I had a Tivo from their very first unit all the way through when DirecTV and Tivo parted ways. I found their hardware to be somewhat spotty. Power supplies would routinely fail, hard drives would die, card readers stopped reading, etc. These were generally expensive repairs (hundreds of dollars) and you often wound up losing all your recordings. I knew that I could purchase higher quality parts and rid myself of their limitations (as Greg mentioned), so I decided it was worth my time and money.

Cox cable. They are all digital now AFAIK.

I'm not familiar with their hardware. Do they have firewire or serial ports you can use for channel changing? (A search on these forums will probably give you that answer.) I will caution against using IR blasters, due to their generally unreliable nature. I'm sure people have had success, but I've never found them to work very well. Just about the most frustrating thing with a PVR is a missed recording, so the more you can do to eliminate that possibility, the happier you'll be.

[AV_Novice]

You have to decide what you really want.

You have Cox cable - lease a PVR from them. Cheaper than buying a TIVO and paying the additional monthly fee.
You want Netflix - Buy a Boxee Box, Roku or a newer Blu-ray player with Netflix streaming. You can also use a PS3 of Xbox360. Almost anything on the market seems to be able to play Netflix now.
You want to integrate all these functions into 1 interface that places a small box at your TV? Including the ability to expand the system in both storage space, additional TVs in the home and no ongoing lease fees? Think SageTV!

I own a Series2 TIVO. It is hooked up to nothing and only serves up old recordings of kids shows. It is very slow to pull the recordings off the Tivo and slow to upload to them. You can use 3rd party software to convert almost any video format to MPEG2 for a Tivo to use, but it becomes a chore.

I have SageMC on a WHS in my basement. I have a HD200 in the living room hooked to a Plasma TV. I really like the fact that I can take a DVD I own and store it on the server. Then when we want to watch a movie, I can just sit down, page thru the selections and start the movie. No more handling or storing DVDs in the living room or worrying about the kids scratching them.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

Do they have firewire or serial ports you can use for channel changing?

I found the users manual for this SA 4250HDC and there is an IR connnector and (2) 1394 ports on the rear. It illustrates you can connect 1394 to another device (HDTV). So I assume this would connect to the HD-PVR?

Originally Posted by AV_Novice

You have to decide what you really want.
You want to integrate all these functions into 1 interface that places a small box at your TV? Including the ability to expand the system in both storage space, additional TVs in the home and no ongoing lease fees? Think SageTV!

I DO!!

Originally Posted by AV_Novice

I really like the fact that I can take a DVD I own and store it on the server. Then when we want to watch a movie, I can just sit down, page thru the selections and start the movie. No more handling or storing DVDs in the living room or worrying about the kids scratching them.

This is just what I want and know the HD-200 and Sage software will do it. Incorporating the recording, actual cabling (signal flow) of the system and, as mentioned above, PC requirements is what I was concerned with prior to commitment.

This forum is stupendous and I feel much more confident jumping into this feet first knowing the wealth of knowledge just a few keystrokes away.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Newman

I found the users manual for this SA 4250HDC and there is an IR connnector and (2) 1394 ports on the rear. It illustrates you can connect 1394 to another device (HDTV). So I assume this would connect to the HD-PVR?

You shouldn't do that.. (assume, that is). There are no firewire ports on the HD-PVR. It connects to the STB via Component Video (the three Round RCA jacks colored Red, Blue, and Green). Audio can be connected either with two RCA cables for Left and Right Analog, or an optical TOSLINK cable for digital. The firewire ports have 2 functions:

1. They can be used to control the set-top-box from the computer.
2. They could potentially be used for bringing the MPEG2 stream directly into the computer, making the HD-PVR unneeded, however, that is ONLY IF they don't have copy protection turned on for the channel. Most cable companies are now setting that flag for everything, making that route pretty much obsolete.

Originally Posted by Newman

This is just what I want and know the HD-200 and Sage software will do it. Incorporating the recording, actual cabling (signal flow) of the system and, as mentioned above, PC requirements is what I was concerned with prior to commitment.

This forum is stupendous and I feel much more confident jumping into this feet first knowing the wealth of knowledge just a few keystrokes away.

You are really worrying WAY too much about this stuff.

[autoboy]

You've already proven that you are capable of understanding SageTV with your understanding of this thread.

SageTV isn't THAT hard and you don't HAVE to mess with it all the time. Will there be problems along the way? Yeah. But you should be capable of fixing them.

You'll also be better off if you don't consider SageTV a way to save $ over Tivo. You could save some $, but you could also spend way more.