Advice/Help: Comcast

[sflamm]

Well Comcast finally seems to have completely screwed me - encrypting almost all the channels in my area and rendering my beloved HDHR boxes almost useless (except for a handful of local clear QAM channels).

Now I need advice on how to get back the ability to tune cable channels - before my wife/kids drive me insane.

Currently I have no Comcast boxes in the house - everything was recorded via the HDHRs.

Questions:

1. Is the best route to setup HD-PVRs tuning cable boxes?
2. Do I need 1 Comcast cable box (tuner) per 1 HD-PVR? Or can I get a dual-tuner cable box and use multiple HD-PVRs with it?
3. Is there any specific cable box I need to get or will anyone do?
4. Is there anyway to setup the HD-PVRs as network tuners? Or do they have to be directly plugged in to my SageTV server? (hoping to avoid this if possible)

I would appreciate any advice, pointers, links etc.

Many thanks in advance.

[PiX64]

So you can't even get ClearQAM HD? your locals should still come through in HD without a problem. I believe that Comcast HAS to under law provide your local channels... anyways that aside

you would need to determine if you want to record any "premium HD content" or 5c encrypted content such as TBS HD TNT HD HBO HD ETC.

If you do then you would need 1 HDPVR per HD box from comcast. eventhough the comcast boxes have dual or more internal tuners the way the HDPVR capture works is you can only record what is being outputted through the rear outputs of the box...everything else recorded on the comcast box would be internal.

for standard cable you would need comcast DTA boxes which will allow you to get all of your standard cable channels and a few extras (for me this includes METV, METOO, THIS, etc.

1 DTA box = 1 recordable stream/watchable stream (either or not both)

Hope that helps a little...

[sflamm]

I can get ClearQAM HD of course... but the only thing that isnt encrypted are the local channels (NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC) that are available OTA (about 10 channels in total).

All the other channels (SyFy, Nick, MTV, etc) that use to be available are all gone now (used to be about 60 of them including the locals).

I think in my area - they are not offering the DTA. Instead they are giving folks STBs (this is from my experience with my mother-in-law that lives nearby. I had told her just to get a DTA instead of a giant STB but they refused to give her one saying they do not do that)

I will of course try to get a DTA.

A couple questions on the DTA:

1. Do the DTA boxes have component outputs? Do they have spdif optical audio out? Or just the STBs?
2. If the stream from the HD-PVR is being recorded by SageTV as a tuner, then why can you not watch and record at the same time from a DTA? Or did you mean by "either or not both" that you can not watch and record different channels (since they are the same stream).

I'm confused on the 5c encoding.... I thought all the channels that are encrypted are using 5c. Is that not correct? Are the premium channels special? If they only are using 5c then what are the encrypted QAM channels using?

Is it difficult to configure the HD-PVR with SageTV? Are there instruction around... been looking but yet to find them.

Thanks again for the help.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by sflamm

A couple questions on the DTA:
1. Do the DTA boxes have component outputs? Do they have spdif optical audio out? Or just the STBs?

The DTAs that I've seen don't even have composite outputs. They just have coax output. And they certainly don't do HD.

I think you should try to get a full STB. I bet you can get them to give you a couple STBs for free, if cost is the reason you wanted to go with the DTAs.

Originally Posted by sflamm

2. If the stream from the HD-PVR is being recorded by SageTV as a tuner, then why can you not watch and record at the same time from a DTA? Or did you mean by "either or not both" that you can not watch and record different channels (since they are the same stream).

You can watch and record (the same channel) at the same time. I'm not sure what PiX64 was trying to say.

Originally Posted by sflamm

I'm confused on the 5c encoding.... I thought all the channels that are encrypted are using 5c. Is that not correct? Are the premium channels special? If they only are using 5c then what are the encrypted QAM channels using?

5c is different then the encryption used on the cable line. From what I understand, 5c is what is applied to some digital video outputs (mainly just firewire). If things aren't encrypted with 5c, sometimes you can just do recording with a firewire-capable set top box. The flags that turn on 5c encryption correspond to copy protection bits. So, there's also a chance, if channels don't have 5c/copy protection set, that you'll be able to use a cable card tuner, although that could very well require a third-party hack that controls the tuners through Windows Media Center.

Originally Posted by sflamm

Is it difficult to configure the HD-PVR with SageTV? Are there instruction around... been looking but yet to find them.

Nah, its pretty easy. The trickier thing is getting it to work reliably, but they have gotten a lot better. Things are a bit more complicated if you want to do firewire channel changing. And you can't use more than one of the Hauppauge IR blasters on your system.

[davephan]

If the choice is between a DTA and and a standard set top box, go for the set top box, the quality will be better. The DTA has only an RF input and RF output. The RF output is either channel 3 or 4. In my area, Comcast recently dropped the analog channels and gives people two DTA boxes. I think the standard set top box costs $7 a month, and the HD set top box costs $10 a month. The first HD set top box is included with the service though.

I run two DTA boxes into a Hauppauge HVR-2250. The HVR-2250 has only one RF input. You need to set one DTA box for channel 3 output and the other DTA box for channel 4 output. You then run both outputs into a signal combiner. I splitter will cancel both signals leaving you with nothing. One HVR-2250 is setup for channel 3, the other tuner for channel 4. The quality isn't very good, so you would probably want a better set top box instead of a DTA.

You can always use you HDHomerun boxes for over the air digital, assuming you can receive the signals. You can then remove the locals from your other tuner(s) which would be connected to the set top cable boxes.

If you are going HD with cable, then you should get a HD-PVR, an HD cable box, and probably a USB-UIRT (since the HD-PVR IR causes the HD-PVR to be unstable). Although, you could try it without a USB-UIRT and find out if you are able to get the HD-PVR to be stable running with its own IR blaster.

Dave

[sflamm]

And you can't use more than one of the Hauppauge IR blasters on your system.

Does this mean that it is not possible to have 2 STBs each with an HD-PVR and the built-in IR blaster?

If that is the case, then how do you tune the 2 STBs independently?

If you are going HD with cable, then you should get a HD-PVR, an HD cable box, and probably a USB-UIRT (since the HD-PVR IR causes the HD-PVR to be unstable). Although, you could try it without a USB-UIRT and find out if you are able to get the HD-PVR to be stable running with its own IR blaster.

Is the USB-UIRT the easiest most reliable way to get things working properly?

Is this the device sold by SageTV? Where can I find directions on setting it up?

How does the USB-UIRT allow the independent tuning of the STBs? Does the SageTV driver handle this transparently?

5c is different then the encryption used on the cable line. From what I understand, 5c is what is applied to some digital video outputs (mainly just firewire). If things aren't encrypted with 5c, sometimes you can just do recording with a firewire-capable set top box. The flags that turn on 5c encryption correspond to copy protection bits. So, there's also a chance, if channels don't have 5c/copy protection set, that you'll be able to use a cable card tuner, although that could very well require a third-party hack that controls the tuners through Windows Media Center.

If I am not using any 'premium' channels is it easier or better to just tune using firewire? How do I know / guarantee that Comcast will give me an STB that is tuneable via Firewire?

My impression is that this is more complicated than the HD-PVRs... is that correct?

he DTA has only an RF input and RF output

My entire system is HD. So I definitely dont want a DTA.

Is there any trick to setting up / configuring the 5.1 audio?

You can always use you HDHomerun boxes for over the air digital, assuming you can receive the signals. You can then remove the locals from your other tuner(s) which would be connected to the set top cable boxes.

The HDHRs do a great job of tuning the ClearQAM HD locals. I do have an antenna for OTA, but I found it just isnt as reliable as ClearQAM cable.

No reason not to keep using the HDHRs for this right?

[PiX64]

Hey sorry about that, I should have just said that you only get one stream from a given DTA instead of the confusing way i said it.

sorry..

[UgaData]

SIC0048 has a guide for setting up the HD-PVR

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...hlight=SIC0048

Most likely any cable box for HD content will have both component and firewire outputs. I would give firewire a chance then use an HD-PVR if the firewire doesn't work. Yes, firewire can be sticky getting it to work.

[PiX64]

back when i was using firewire for capture, it was pretty solid, but i was not able to get any 5C encrypted content like TNT HD, TBS HD, etc. So unless that has changed since i was using it you may need to still get an HDPVR for the 5C encrypted content...

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by sflamm

Does this mean that it is not possible to have 2 STBs each with an HD-PVR and the built-in IR blaster?

If that is the case, then how do you tune the 2 STBs independently?

In that case you probably either need to buy a USB-UIRT and set up multi-zone support, or try to get a firewire-capable box and do firewire channel changing. Firewire is probably preferred, but a lot of things might et in the way. You need to be able to get a box with firewire that has driver support (check out the STB Firewire thread in the hardware section for info on this), and you'll need to run a 32-bit version of windows (your life will be easier if its WinXP).

I think firewire channel changing is very easy to set up. I haven't set up a USB-UIRT before, but setting up multizone support looks a little complicated. You can either buy it from the manufacturer, or from Sage. And the SageTV user manual has some information about setting it up.

If I am not using any 'premium' channels is it easier or better to just tune using firewire? How do I know / guarantee that Comcast will give me an STB that is tuneable via Firewire?

By "tune" do you mean change channels, or record? I have Comcast, and I do firewire recording with a DCT6200 cable box. Basically all my HD channels work over firewire (which wasn't quite the case before they shut off analog), except for premium channels, but somewhat oddly standard definition digital channels don't work.

I'm a little hesitant to recommend firewire recording. It's moderately complicated to set up, and I think the software is buggy. I have to have my computer restart itself regularly to prevent lock-ups, and I had to turn off Data Execution Prevention (which indicates something weird is going on).

Is there any trick to setting up / configuring the 5.1 audio?

I've given up on 5.1 audio on the HD-PVR. In my case, it works 99% of the time, but the remaining 1% can lock up the box. I've missed several recordings because of that before I switched back to stereo audio. It doesn't bother me too much because most of my recordings are done over firewire. I just have a second HD set top box and an HD-PVR so I can record premium channels.

No reason not to keep using the HDHRs for this right?

Correct. I definitely still use my HDHR. Most of my recordings are done with it, since most of the things I watch are from network TV.

[sflamm]

Thanks everyone for the input so far.

I was looking at the Comcast site and I talked to a representative.

It looks like they sell a "Basic Digital Package" and an add-on "Basic HD Package". The add-on HD package apparently requires a separate STB.

The question I have is - does this mean that all the HD Channels in the add-on package are 5C protected? Are they considered premium?

Why else would you need a separate STB? The guy insisted that I could not get any HD content with it... and it costs $7/mo (that's the "HD-charge" above the basic digital)

[davephan]

When you talk to the Comcast representative, record the phone call. I've found that the people that sell you cable or satellite will over promise sometimes. Then they don't follow through later. If you record the call, then they will act differently if the 'forget' the deal that they agreed to previously. You can record the phone call with a microphone and a suction cup phone microphone. Both sides of the conversation are recorded. I use Total Record to record the call on the computer. I think there are some free audio recording applications out there that could be used instead. I record in mp3 format. If there is a question, I can e-mail the audio recording. I haven't had to e-mail any recordings yet. Just the fact that they even think the conversation was recorded seems to keep them in line.

Dave

[davephan]

Originally Posted by sflamm

Does this mean that it is not possible to have 2 STBs each with an HD-PVR and the built-in IR blaster?Is the USB-UIRT the easiest most reliable way to get things working properly? Where can I find directions on setting it up?

These two diagrams should help you understand the physical USB-UIRT multi-zone hook up.

Dave

[sflamm]

Thanks so much for the diagrams.

I have a few mono IR emitters lying around - so it looks like if I just plug them into a stereo to mono splitter (which I also have) then I should be able to support 2 zones, yes?

What do you do if you end up with more than 2 STBs? Does the USB-UIRT support more than 2 zones? Does SageTV support more than 1 USB-UIRT?


I spoke with a tech support guy at Comcast who seemed knowledgeable and friendly (the sales guys are useless). He said that as of 4/7 Comcast encrypted with 5C all of the cable channel above 1-32. The only way to decrypt them is to use a standard def STB (will decrypt 1-88) or an HD STB (will decrypt 1-9xx). Nothing except 1-32 can be seen in clear QAM. The alternative to STBs is cable cards - which can all decrypt 5c now...

He said the rollout is proceeding market to market, state to state, nationwide. By year end clear QAM will be gone for all practical SageTV purposes.... uggh.

It doesn't sound like the Firewire port can be used to record anything anymore... as everything is encrypted.

[sflamm]

Another quick question: what is everyone using to process the commercials? I have been using the old version of ShowAnalyzer (0.9.7) on my recording from my HDHRs. I dont believe that will process H264 that the HD-PVR produces. Am I right?

I have a copy of the new version of ShowAnalyzer (1.0.59.783) that I believe will handle H264, but I tried it on my MPEG-2 recordings coming out of my HDHR and it performed worse than the old version - so I have been hesitant to upgrade.

Can anyone tell me what they use successfully with the HD-PVR?

[davephan]

The USB-UIRT has three zones. One zone is in the main USB-UIRT box, the other two zones are used by connecting to the jack on the box. I used old Hauppauge IR LEDs, cut off the connectors that did not work with the USB-UIRT, and soldered both IR LED cables to a stereo connector I bought from Radio Shack. They have a metal jacketed and cheaper plastic jacketed stereo connector. I used the better quality metal jacked stereo connector. You can take the USB-UIRT to Radio Shack to make sure you get the correct connector.

I think this may have been the connector:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103990

More information about setting up the USB-UIRT for multiple zones is here:

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5291

The Shadeblue.com grahics I posted earlier are posts 105 and 106 of the string. If the set top boxes have multiple IR channels, then you can control many more boxes. For example, if your set top box could be setup with 4 different IR codes, then you could have 3 x 4 = 12 set top boxes all controlled by one USB-UIRT. Each set top box that uses the same codes does have to be optically isolated from other similar set top boxes. The USB-UIRT is the best option for being more flexible to change service providers. If a service provider jacks up the rate, you need to be flexible to switch providers when the price increases exceed your personal thresholds.

I started using Comskip many years ago, then I switched to ShowAnalyzer. Recently I switched back to Comskip. ShowAnalyzer works good for mpeg files, but not for TS files. ShowAnalyzer version 1 is supposed to work with TS files, and does, but produces very poor results. There are many problems with ShowAnalyzer 1 besides poor results. The registration process is very annoying and non-standard. There are more key entries to enter than any commercial software I have ever used. When entering the key numbers, it won't work. You have to use a very strange method to copy the whole very long string of key numbers into the fields. It took several weeks to get the registration key to work. I've dealt with a lot of software registration at work and at home, and I have never seen a software key system so poorly engineered. So, I think it would be best to avoid using ShowAnalyzer for TS files completely, at least until the results improve and the strange key problems are fixed with something that resembles a 'normal' software key entry process.

I recommend using Comskip for both mpeg and TS files. Comskip works much better than it did years ago. You need to use the 'donor' Comskip version to work with TS files. The same donor Comskip version works with both mpeg and TS files. You could use Dirmon2 to automatically trigger the Comskipping, or better yet, use Sage Job Queue (SJQ). If you use Dirmon2, you end up processing everything, including non-commercial channels, which is a waste of CPU cycles, and the results may be worse if it 'detects' a commercial where a commercial does not exist in the non-commercial channel. The Sage Job Queue does take some effort to get it setup, but it not overwhelming, especially since there are many people that are happy to help you get it going. I have my Sage Job Queue setup to process two files at a time and avoids processing 23 non-commercial channels.

There's a long list of things to do with the HD-PVR to make it more stable. If you haven't used a HD-PVR before, you'll probably want to go through that list. I removed the top plastic silver cover of my HD-PVR, and it seems to help with the stability. I have a fan to install, but I haven't installed the fan yet. Not using the built-in Hauppauge IR blaster, and covering up the Hauppauge IR blaster sensor helps the stability for some people.

Dave

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by sflamm

I spoke with a tech support guy at Comcast who seemed knowledgeable and friendly (the sales guys are useless). He said that as of 4/7 Comcast encrypted with 5C all of the cable channel above 1-32. The only way to decrypt them is to use a standard def STB (will decrypt 1-88) or an HD STB (will decrypt 1-9xx). Nothing except 1-32 can be seen in clear QAM. The alternative to STBs is cable cards - which can all decrypt 5c now...

Both you and the guy at Comcast are confusing 5c encryption, which is more of a DRM scheme enforcing copy-protection flags, with the encryption used to block non-subscribers' access to digital channels. They're completely different things. 5C encryption is applied by the cable box when its accessing copy-protected content, and pushing it out over firewire. The other kind of encryption, for access control, is applied by the cable companies, and usually uses the DigiCipher 2 encryption scheme. That one gets decrypted by your cable box.

Originally Posted by sflamm

It doesn't sound like the Firewire port can be used to record anything anymore... as everything is encrypted.

You can absolutely record encrypted channels over firewire. That's the advantage of firewire recording over clear QAM tuners. You just can't record copy-protected channels (plus, sometimes firewire ports just don't work right).

[PiX64]

Reggie, and SFLAMM

Sorry i think that confusion is partially my fault. I didn't specify the non copy protected content, just reffered to it as 5C encryption which isn't 100% complete or correct.

Sorry everyone...

sflamm - I just recently installed a USB-UIRT and found the following post extremely helpful...

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...usb-uirt+multi

9th post down...

~Pix64

[sflamm]

You can absolutely record encrypted channels over firewire. That's the advantage of firewire recording over clear QAM tuners. You just can't record copy-protected channels (plus, sometimes firewire ports just don't work right).

Is this reliable enough to forego a HD-PVR setup? I want something extremely reliable (or else my family will be unhappy with me).

Does anyone know which are considered 'premium' channels and subject to 5c encryption over firewire?

I want to just get the digital starter with digital starter HD... channels like NickHD, MTVHD, SCIFYHD etc... are these 5c encrypted or not?

[PiX64]

As reggie stated, 5C is more of a DRM thing...so what you have to worry about is the COPY Protection on those channels.

I know from experience when i had COMCAST HD STB i was NOT able to get certain channels like TNT, TBS, MTVHD, etc via firewire. I could hear them but the actual content would not show up through FIREWIRE...