HD300 picture quality vs client?

[Brent94Z]

Hey Guys,

Just recently got two HD300s and have been getting everything hooked up.

One thing I noticed is that the picture quality of the HD300s is not as good as my HTPC Sage server. The whites are not as white, the blacks aren't as black, and the pictures and text appear a little "fuzzy". It is not terrible but there is a noticeable difference.

My HTPC is plugged into a A/V receiver via HDMI. I have an HD300 plugged into the same A/V receiver via HDMI as well. I then have one HDMI cable going up to the TV at 1080p. I have swapped cables on the HD300 and there is no change. Also, the other HD300 I have is hooked up in a different room to another 1080p TV and I notice the same thing on it. I have verified that I'm at 1080p 60 on both TVs. I even tried 1080i and I couldn't tell a difference so went back to 1080p.

Playback of TV shows seems to be OK but navagating the menus and Program Guide in Sage there is a big difference. The HD300 is not as "crisp" as my HTPC.

I see no settings to change other than what I mentioned and I suppose this would be normal because everything seems to be being done in the guts of the HD300. Is this to be expected or is there something I might be missing?

Thanks!

[peternm22]

The user interface (not the video playback) of the HD300 is limited to a resolution of 1024x576.

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by peternm22

The user interface (not the video playback) of the HD300 is limited to a resolution of 1024x576.

Well, then that explains exactly why I'm seeing what I'm seeing and think the menu looks not so great but the videos look good

But another probably really dumb question... WHY???

If the device is capable of outputting 1080p then why not make it 1080p all the time if that is what it is set to?

[voidpt]

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

But another probably really dumb question... WHY???

I am doing this a little too generic. Probably a lot of nuances here. But the basics is that the HD300 is a 'client' with 600Mhz CPU, 1GB RAM, a Sigma video/audio decode tailored 'GPU' (SMP8654). Drawing 6-8W total. It does not have a GPU tailored for generic graphics. So the 'weak' spot on the HD300 is the ability to do fancy accelerated graphics for the interface. SageTV has probably arrived at the 1024x576 as the sweet spot for the HD300. Might even be some logical/physical limit for all I know (with the components the HD300 have now).

My guess on what will solve this in the future is a possible HDx00 with more powerful edition of Sigma chip. Here is the product info for SMP8654. That page points to SMP8656, which have "3D graphics accelerator with Open GL ES 1.1/2.0 support". At that point it might be possible for SageTV to run native 1080p with their interface, and still have a smooth navigation.

An unknown factor is still if that part of the SMP8656 makes it possible to easily integrate into SageTV way of drawing graphics/STV's and so on. I'll leave that to the real SageTV experts here

But I'll conclude with the following. I'd always take a box that does the video/audio right and interface 2nd. Not other way around. Although, wouldn't mind both It probably gets down to estimated units sold vs. cost of hardware parts. Personally I wouldn't mind two editions of HDx00 living side by side. One 'regular' and one 'high-end'. Then people could choose. More work for SageTV though, and would it earn them money ?

[Brent94Z]

Thanks for the detailed explanation

I use my HTPC for probably 95% of my Sage use. For years I've been content with just using my PVR250s but have had HD for over a year. It's stupid to not watch my normal programming in HD when I can so have been setting up an HD PVR and HDHR. So, that brings me to my problem... my HTPC gives me the better quality overall Sage experience but I'm having trouble using it to play back live HD PVR or HDHR content. But then on the other hand, I have the HD300 which does play live content from the HD PVR and HDHR with no problem but has lesser quality for the menus. After getting used to using Sage via my HTPC I'm kinda spoiled in the quality of the menus, etc. so guess I'll continue trying to figure out the live playback thing and stick the HD300 in the bedroom

I know it sounds like I want to have my cake and eat it too... but I'm so close and other people do it with no problem that I think I should be able to as well. LOL

Thanks much guys for the answers... I now don't need to spend time figuring out "what's wrong" because there is nothing wrong so looking on the bright side, that's a plus! Hahaha

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

Hey Guys,

Just recently got two HD300s and have been getting everything hooked up.

One thing I noticed is that the picture quality of the HD300s is not as good as my HTPC Sage server. The whites are not as white, the blacks aren't as black,

That's a TV calibration issue. Likely the TV is calibrated to "PC levels", and the extender outputs (AFAIK) video levels. It will require recalibration.

FWIW, it outputs the UI at 1080p (if you have it set that way) but it's internally rendered lower for performance reasons, and scaled up to 1080p.

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by stanger89

That's a TV calibration issue. Likely the TV is calibrated to "PC levels", and the extender outputs (AFAIK) video levels. It will require recalibration.

FWIW, it outputs the UI at 1080p (if you have it set that way) but it's internally rendered lower for performance reasons, and scaled up to 1080p.

Hmm... I do have a PC/Video option on my TV but it is only available when I use the VGA input. For the HDMI input (that I am using) I have several options...

* VCR
* Interlaced DVD
* Progressive DVD
* Standard Def TV
* High Def TV
* Game Mode

I was on High Def TV and I tried all the others. I can see changes but nothing is comes close to the way the server looks (using the same input, same cables, etc. on the TV). I went back to High Def TV because it probably looks the best (some of the others went a little darker).

Just so I'm clear though... you are saying it is a calibration issue on my TV. So, are you also then saying that the HD300 should look just as good as the server? If not, I can understand that because of the lower resultion of the UI as mentioned above. If you are saying that I shouldn't be able to tell the difference, then I suppose I'll play around a bit further Thanks!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

Hmm... I do have a PC/Video option on my TV but it is only available when I use the VGA input. For the HDMI input (that I am using) I have several options...

* VCR
* Interlaced DVD
* Progressive DVD
* Standard Def TV
* High Def TV
* Game Mode

I was on High Def TV and I tried all the others. I can see changes but nothing is comes close to the way the server looks (using the same input, same cables, etc. on the TV). I went back to High Def TV because it probably looks the best (some of the others went a little darker).

If you don't have a levels toggle, you need to adjust the brightness/contrast to be correct. You'll probably have to run some test patters (such as those on the AVS 709 disc) to get it right.

Just so I'm clear though... you are saying it is a calibration issue on my TV. So, are you also then saying that the HD300 should look just as good as the server?

I'm saying the dark whites and light blacks are a calibration issue, they're indicative of a "PC levels" calibration displaying "video levels" content/video. If you do this black is displayed too light and white too dark, and everything looks dim and washed out.

If not, I can understand that because of the lower resultion of the UI as mentioned above. If you are saying that I shouldn't be able to tell the difference, then I suppose I'll play around a bit further Thanks!

The UI will not be as crisp a PC client because it's rendered at <1080p (for performance reasons) but that will have nothing to do with video or how light/dark stuff looks. Here's a (simulated) example:
Display Calibrated to PC levels:

Display Calibrated to Video Levels:

With a proper calibration 16 is the darkest level that should be visible and 235 (in theory, there are arguments for calibrating with headroom) the brightest. Video is designed to be calibrated this way, but PCs use the whole 0-255 range so if you calibrate your display for PC levels, video looks dim and washed out.

[Brent94Z]

I gotcha, stanger. Thanks very much for the education. This has turned out to be a very informative thread... at least for me.

Thanks!

[voidpt]

Originally Posted by stanger89

FWIW, it outputs the UI at 1080p (if you have it set that way) but it's internally rendered lower for performance reasons, and scaled up to 1080p.

Forgot that one. As stanger says. It is actually possible to have the HD300 to show UI (when no video is playing, I think), in 'low-res' mode. Make sure you study these two options (showing my settings here):
» Setup / Detailed Setup / Multimedia:
» » Output Resolution: 1920x1080p@50
» » Native Output Resolution Switching: Disabled

So even if your TV is 1080p capable. You can make the HD300 output everything in 480i/p. That's the problem with SageTV. You get all these options solving problems, you never knew you had Other solutions usually give you problems, but no options to solve them

I use the options above to force HD300 to render in 1080p, whatever the source contents. Because my (relative old) TV uses 5sec to black out when switching HDMI resolution. Ideally most would choose 'Enable' on the Native part, if TV switches fast enough. Because the TV usually (not always) scale signal better (has internal tricks) than feeding it 1080p always (TV can't do it's tricks then).

Hmm. That got complicated

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by voidpt

Forgot that one. As stanger says. It is actually possible to have the HD300 to show UI (when no video is playing, I think), in 'low-res' mode. Make sure you study these two options (showing my settings here):
» Setup / Detailed Setup / Multimedia:
» » Output Resolution: 1920x1080p@50
» » Native Output Resolution Switching: Disabled

I did check that and on both TVs am showing 1920x1080p@60. I even tried switching to other resolutions but that didn't work

And, thanks for the suggestion, stanger on adjusting some of the settings. I think I did get it a bit better and oddly enough, it didn't seem to negatively affect my HTPC or my cablebox which seems odd but I'll take it All three of those go into the A/V receiver and then go up to the TV so I'm using the same input on the TV for everything.

The HD300 is by no means unacceptable... but like I said, I just got a bit spoiled by looking at the actual server computer output in true 1080p so it is noticeable to me whereas it may not be to somebody else who doesn't have a side by side comparison

[PLUCKYHD]

Always my biggest and really only one of 2 compliants left about sage extenders. Is UI and performance of the UI both related to the speed/ram/cache. The hd300 was as step forward in features but not a huge leap in the other areas for graphic intense addins (wonder what idiot is making those ). I am almost about to give in and built a w7 client just for speed and a cripser looking ui all around. I also wish sage would have settled on a native resolution (ie 1280x720) not the unused "hd" resolution they are sitting on but I digress.

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

And, thanks for the suggestion, stanger on adjusting some of the settings. I think I did get it a bit better and oddly enough, it didn't seem to negatively affect my HTPC or my cablebox which seems odd but I'll take it

I kinda take that back... my HTPC is pretty darn BRIGHT now in some areas But I'll continue to tweak

[stanger89]

It's quite unlikely, scratch that, it's impossible to get them both right at the same time with only one calibration. You might be able to find some middle ground that's acceptable for both, but neither will be right.

If you're going to run right and have everything calibrated right, you'll need separate calibrations. Though I am sort of surprised you find the STBs to match the PC and not the extender.

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by stanger89

It's quite unlikely, scratch that, it's impossible to get them both right at the same time with only one calibration. You might be able to find some middle ground that's acceptable for both, but neither will be right.

If you're going to run right and have everything calibrated right, you'll need separate calibrations. Though I am sort of surprised you find the STBs to match the PC and not the extender.

Yep... as I started looking at more things I could tell how the PC was now very bright... too bright to the point of losing some detail in some of the pics. So, I was able to find a pretty good middle ground.

I have Brighthouse for my cable provider. Their GUI very dated and is extremely basic. They don't even try to fill the screen. It is a small menu that doesn't even go to the edge of the screen. My guess is that I'm seeing it as it is (so it looks crisp) and it isn't be "upsized" like the extender GUI? Or, since I hardly ever use their menuing and it is very dull and basic colors, it could be being "upsized" and it just isn't pronounced as the very nice Sage GUI

[Brent94Z]

I'm reading some of the posts here about the experimental UI resolution being higher and am excited to give it a shot. I know you didn't do this just for me but a big THANKS to Sage none-the-less

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

I'm reading some of the posts here about the experimental UI resolution being higher and am excited to give it a shot. I know you didn't do this just for me but a big THANKS to Sage none-the-less

It is very nice indeed I hope they keep it

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

I'm reading some of the posts here about the experimental UI resolution being higher and am excited to give it a shot. I know you didn't do this just for me but a big THANKS to Sage none-the-less

Is this a beta firmware release or....?

[Brent94Z]

Yes, so far, only the beta version has this

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by peternm22

The user interface (not the video playback) of the HD300 is limited to a resolution of 1024x576.

Actually on the HD300 they raised it to 1280x720 . When I changed my HD200 for the HD300 I noticed that the interface was somehow crispier, so I had a look a the system info and noticed the change, you know, on 110" makes the difference ;-)