Return Policy - Am I Unreasonable?

[heffneil]

Guys,

I bought 6 HD 300's when they went on sale. I have 5 HD200's I have phased out or used elsewhere and 3 original HD100 so I think I know the product pretty well. Anyway I had a problem with one of the HD300's when watching a show. The picture would stutter and be unclear. I couldn't rewind or fast forward but it was intermittent. I ended up using a different 300 in its place and haven't had a problem yet. I have asked Sage to replace it however I am getting a response that indicated I need to perform debugging. Honestly I don't have time to mess with it. I don't want to bother with it I just want a replacement. I have utilized all of the HD300's now and need this last unit in production. I was told now that I can return it and they will test it. If they find it to be working I will just get the same one back. No indication of how long their tests will take which may result in me getting the same unit back. So am I unreasonable? I have sagetv working well and I don't want to or have time to collect logs and send them off to prove there is an issue. Given how new it is should I have to? I understand this product is a tinker'ers focus but not when you spend $150 x 6 plus the additional product I have bought over the years! I am a big proponent of SageTV and rant and rave about it to my friends and family but the lack of support and customer service really is discouraging...

[paulbeers]

Honestly, in my opinion this is pretty much what you should expect from a tech gadget. Any time I have ever had issues with computer hardware of any type, they would want logs (if possible) or if I send it back in for testing that there would be no time table for its return and no guarantees that I wouldn't just get mine back (or it could even be returned non-working because it was my error).

[heffneil]

If you buy a tivo from the store and it doesn't function properly you plop it back in the box return it to bestbuy and get another one. Why is this any different? I should haven't to track down someone elses' bugs.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by heffneil

If you buy a tivo from the store and it doesn't function properly you plop it back in the box return it to bestbuy and get another one. Why is this any different? I should haven't to track down someone elses' bugs.

First off, the reason for the debugging is because Sage can't be sure you didn't choose something incorrectly for that particular HD300. If you chose some setting wrong, Sage keeps track of each unit in a separate property file so even if you move it somewhere else it will still have the same issues.

Secondly, if you buy something from newegg/mwave/etc online, and it doesn't work you send it back, they check it out and decide if it works or not and refund (or send you a new one) based on their results.

Last, your comparison to Best buy is apples to oranges. Best buy can't help you if you have a problem. End of story. Even if it is your issue. They don't pay their people enough to care or train them to help. You have an issue, they take it as a return. Someone later on will check over the item and if it works they just throw it out as an "open box" item and resell it. If it is broken then they send it back to the manufacturer. This "customer service" is part of the cost of items sold at BB.

Edit: Further, is it really that much more work to turn debugging on and send them a file? That seems like a lot less work than packaging it back up and mailing it to them....

[heffneil]

Out of the box they are identical and that isn't an issue. It could be if I didn't know what I was doing but I can safely say this isn't a configuration problem...

Buyer beware I guess but I bought a new product and I shouldn't have to find the problem for anyone especially of the rest of them are working properly.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by heffneil

Out of the box they are identical and that isn't an issue. It could be if I didn't know what I was doing but I can safely say this isn't a configuration problem...

Buyer beware I guess but I bought a new product and I shouldn't have to find the problem for anyone especially of the rest of them are working properly.

Are you serious? Have you done any troubleshooting? There are so many variables here. How long have you had this HD300?

I'm kinda shaking my head on the "lack of support and customer service" statement. At least go through the basic troubleshooting steps and logs they are asking for for goodness sake.

[heffneil]

The unit is brand new and came as soon as they were shipping. I had 5 deployed at the time I had a second incident with the one bad unit. I pulled another out of the box and updated to the latest beta at the time just as the original box had. I then used identical video settings and that is it?

I just don't think I should have to futz with it nor be without the box while someone else figures it out...

Neil

[Brent]

Originally Posted by heffneil

The unit is brand new and came as soon as they were shipping. I had 5 deployed at the time I had a second incident with the one bad unit. I pulled another out of the box and updated to the latest beta at the time just as the original box had. I then used identical video settings and that is it?

I just don't think I should have to futz with it nor be without the box while someone else figures it out...

Neil

Neil,
Sorry, but since you asked - I do think you are being unreasonable (my opinion only of course). Taking your "best buy" scenario you would NOT be able to return it or exchange it at this point as it's been too long. I've been doing this HTPC thing for long enough to know not to assume it's always someone elses problem - it could be something specifically caused by your setup, your install, your network etc etc. SageTV is running a business and has to follow the steps of troubleshooting the problem before/if they spend money to ship it back and tinker with your box just because you say you don't want to futz with it. Think about it...

[heffneil]

Yeah I should have noted as soon as this happened I notified support. I was told to debug the problem with logs and that is when I said I just want to watch tv. Pulled the box and threw another one in its place. Now I need to use that box in my home theater and I am not interested in testing it out...

I would agree there are several variables that could cause this unit to not function. If I were running one box and a true novice I would agree. At this point I have wasted as much energy on my point as trying to replicate the problem. Fact is I have damaged goods and it will never be right until I invest time that I don't have and just isn't worth it. If I was pissed off about the poor customer service and the fact they won't replace the box I would just buy another one. But I won't. The 6 HD300's will be the last SageTV product I ever purchase....

[JetreL]

I want to be on your side, I really do! I can empathize with your frustration, I have dealt with this issue before with other companies. I know exactly how frustrating it can be. But SageTV works really well and they do appear to listen and try to help as much as they can.

I think you are justified with asking them to RMA the product and intern they are justified to ask you to do a few trouble shooting steps to make sure it is a hardware issue and not an I D ten T error or ID10T. (I am not calling you an idiot that's just a tech joke)

Almost all support request that I have had dealing with HW issues they ask me to do a few steps to assure this there isn't any user error and keep their returns and cost down. This is an industry standard.

Since SageTV isn't a large company they may ask you to do a few extra steps. I personally would spend 30 minutes to troubleshoot it, test other boxes connected to the same network cable, etc. But that is a piece I enjoy about supporting SageTV in my house.

Best of luck getting this resolved!

[heffneil]

Sage Tv support is George and he responds at his convenience usually at 9 pm EST and if you do not email him back within 5 minutes you will not get a response until the following day. That's not good.

[heffneil]

I just saw Plex will be supported on LG Bluray players. That might seal the deal for me!

[paulbeers]

One last comment: You realize that all the time you spent complaining in this thread about what you perceive as poor customer service, you could have plugged the "bad" HD300 in, turned debugging on, and sent the resultant files to the Sage team?

[heffneil]

I thought I said that? Regardless you didn't read that I said the problem was intermittent which means that I have to waste enough time getting the problem to reproduce itself before there are logs worth sending along. That is my problem. If the problem was simply reproducible I would probably not complain, reproduce the problem while logging, and prove my point. Instead I have to hunt for it.

Sorry for any previous disrespect but if you couldn't tell I am extremely frustrated.

[mistergq]

heffneil:

I had a similar problem with an HD100. There was an intermittent problem that I went back and forth with Sage with for months because it was difficult to duplicate. So I understand the frustration. Also, I gave up problem shooting it when the HD200 came out and I replaced that unit with HD200.

Having said that, I also chalked it up that you are not dealing with Sony, LG, etc etc etc. And if you were, they would blame it on Windows, tell you that their product works, and move on. Lets also not forget that their tech support would be in India.

My point is that when you are dealing with a company as small as Sage, support is not going 100% and when issues like this arise, you have to make a sacrifice of either walking away from that one device, or lose it for a period of time while they trouble shoot it.

[reggie14]

I understand heffneil's frustration. I've done far more extensive debugging procedures for Sage products than any other CE product I've ever worked with. Acronis did some pretty extensive debugging, but they used WebEx to take control of my system so they could go through the debugging procedures. What I find more annoying is that it can take days or weeks to resolve a problem, since you generally just get one response from support per day.

But, I'm not sure what someone could reasonably expect. I hope most prospective customers read the forums a bit more purchasing. I don't think people that do a bit of research are likely to be surprised. Sage is a small company. What do you expect?

In this particular case, I'm not quite sure what heffneil is looking for. Sage lets you return hardware in the first 30 days with a small restocking fee. After 30 days they'll let you RMA things and they'll test them for you. What else do you expect? Some, but not all, companies will let you give them a credit card and they'll cross ship the replacement.

One thing to keep in mind: certain credit cards, particular AmEx cards (which Sage doesn't take), have special buyers' protection features that let you do no-excuse returns for 90 days or so. Visa Signature cards might have similar features.

[Skirge01]

Even large companies, like Dell, make you troubleshoot before they'll send replacement parts out to you. My company buys their gold level support with all our systems and we still have to go through troubleshooting steps with them. The only way I can convince them to ship a part without doing so is if I tell them I swapped out the part with another one and it worked.

A PSU or memory or CPU can easily be swapped out and give you a definitive answer as to whether or not the problem part is the actual issue. In this case, there are additional variables (software) which preclude a swap from being a definitive answer.

So, I have to agree that you are being unreasonable. If you want any company to give you support for a product you bought from them, you have no choice but to follow their rules on how the RMA process works. If you don't have time to do so right now, then your choice would be to purchase another device and RMA the problem one when you do have time to follow their RMA process. This is why I keep hot spares of many of my parts, including the HD-PVR.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

Even large companies, like Dell, make you troubleshoot before they'll send replacement parts out to you. My company buys their gold level support with all our systems and we still have to go through troubleshooting steps with them.

I really don't think most companies would expect the same level of expertise from users that Sage expects (though, given the niche market, they do have reason to expect a certain level of expertise). A company supporting consumer-class products is going to act differently than a company supporting businesses. Most homes don't have trained computer geeks acting as system admins.

Particularly unless Sage is going to add telephone support, I really don't think Sage can justifiably expect all customers to do some of the things they've had me do. I think its easier now, but it used to be a very involved process to get logs off the extenders.

Still, it sounds like Sage was being reasonable. They weren't denying the RMA request. They (apparently) said the unit could be returned for testing. They just weren't going to ship out a replacement until they found a problem with the original unit.

[GKusnick]

Basically, the OP is asking Sage to take his word for it that the unit is defective, while refusing to provide any evidence to support his claim. This isn't L.L. Bean. You don't get to return stuff on a whim, for no reason. So add my vote to the "unreasonable" column.

I would also suggest that asking other users for their opinions, and then arguing with anybody who offers one, is probably not a good way to demonstrate your reasonableness.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Basically, the OP is asking Sage to take his word for it that the unit is defective, while refusing to provide any evidence to support his claim. This isn't L.L. Bean. You don't get to return stuff on a whim, for no reason.

While I basically agree, it's not that usual for tech companies to take your word that a unit is defective. Logitech once shipped me a replacement device without ever sending in the defective unit. Years back Viewsonic cross-shipped a replacement unit, although I did have to give them a credit card number in case I didn't actually ship my monitor back. And a year or so ago Samsung did something similar (and I don't think I even gave them a credit card number)- they shipped a replacement monitor to a UPS store, and then when I picked it up I had to give UPS the defective unit before they'd release the replacement. I've return several things to Newegg and Amazon with nearly no questions asked, and have never been charged a restocking fee or return shipping (although, I feel bad since one time I'm pretty sure the device wasn't actually defective, I later found out I probably just hooked it up wrong).

In general, it's pretty annoying to do returns. Sometimes you even incur a cost, like the return shipping fee. The vast majority of people aren't going to do returns for replacement for no reason. Sometimes people might be wrong about what the problem is, but they're not going to do it for no reason.