MythTV User Eyeing SageTV - Through the Keyhole...

[shomann]

Hello all...

I am currently a MythTV HTPC user and have been keeping an eye on the current crop of HTPC software over here in Wintel land for the past several months (if fact, it would be fair to say that I have been looking at SageTV, SS BTV and myHTPC as long as I have been into PVRs). Sage always struck me as sort of a Windows counterpart to MythTV in that they both have multi-tuner support and network distribution in mind.

Since I started as a nOOb in the Linux world in general, my MythTV experience has not been a smooth, easy journey. That would be the number one reason that a Windows based system still appeals to me...that and what seems to be a wider hardware support. However, I must say that there are features I have grown to love inside MythTV that I might be forced to give up if I make a move to SageTV. These include a super-easy DVD to AVI ripper, web interface (yeah, I could VNC for this), and commercial skipping.

This last feature, while about 80-90% accurate, is almost too painful to lose. My questions to the group are:
1) What sort of development time is there between major software changes/fixes? In MythTV world the speed is ultra-rapid, but the stability/usability usually takes a few tries for us simple non-Linux folk
2) How does this Studio program I keep hearing about work? Can it tie into existing Wintel software to provide the coveted DVD to AVI ripping. Better still, can SageTV be adapted to archive to DVD-video? (I like DVDs )
3) Are there any other folks out here that have gone from MythTV (or other PVR) to find their home here at Sage to be more desireable?

This post is NOT meant to fuel a debate over the better PVR software. I am mainly curious as to the real-world use and find the MythTV folk a tad defensive when it is suggested that a Wintel product is better (debateable) or easier (not debateable, I doubt seriously that it took anyone here several weeks of trying to get their PVRs up and running)

[kny3twalker]

actually alot of people here like AMDs since the nforce mobos are the only ones that work correctly with the pvr350s, well and maybe some older intels.
LOL

never seen studio yet
It is supposed to be out this week as a free upgrade included with a paid version of 2

[ToxMox]

I have a VIA KT333 board and my 350 works fine. Although I'm not sure how this is relevant to the original post.

[stanger89]

Hey shomann, always nice to see new faces around, even if we can't actually see those new faces

Originally posted by shomann
1) What sort of development time is there between major software changes/fixes? In MythTV world the speed is ultra-rapid, but the stability/usability usually takes a few tries for us simple non-Linux folk

Sage has about the fastest development I've seen in a windows app, during the 2.0 beta we got a new build about once/week, it's less frequent between releases, but still quick. As for stability, even the betas were incredibly stable, as a whole. tje one exception is the ongoing trouble with the PVR 350 OSD (Haupauge driver problem).

2) How does this Studio program I keep hearing about work? Can it tie into existing Wintel software to provide the coveted DVD to AVI ripping. Better still, can SageTV be adapted to archive to DVD-video? (I like DVDs )

Only the private beta testers know what Studio is like, but it's apparently what the entire 2.0 user interface was developed with, take a look in the Customizations forum to see what can be done.

As for DVDs, Sage already supports DVDs ripped to the HDD, as well as AVIs.

3) Are there any other folks out here that have gone from MythTV (or other PVR) to find their home here at Sage to be more desireable?

I'd PM Myth2Sage, he's been a pretty active forum menber for a while.

[plawlor]

shomann,

I got into the PVR world about 6 months ago. After some research, I dove into MythTV. After almost 2 weeks of effort, I finally got things up and running, but not tuned completely to my liking. I consider myself an IT professional (not a developer, but a former network architect/administator) so I have pretty good UNIX, although not Linux-specific experience. Although impressed with MythTV and all of the exciting new features being discussed in the open source world, I soon became tired of Linux administration, driver issues, new builds, etc. One night, I wiped the whole thing clean and loaded WinXP. I've been a Sage lover ever since.

Although not as rapid as MythTV, the Sage developers have been much more aggressive than most Windows-based products. No complaints here. Although you may miss a few things early on, after a month or so, you'll look back and be glad you made the switch.

In my opinion, Linux has come a long way, but is just not quite there yet when it comes to usability. I'd recommend products like Red Hat Application Server any day for big-name enterprise apps, web servers, database servers, etc., but not for $50 client apps like PVRs, word processors, gaming, etc.

[shomann]

Originally posted by stanger89

As for DVDs, Sage already supports DVDs ripped to the HDD, as well as AVIs.

Cool. However, with MythTV, it allows you to insert a DVD, which it then rips to HD and then transcodes it to XVID or multi-pass DIVX with several setting choices. You can even eject the DVD after it is done ripping and insert another and be able to queue multiple transcodes at a time. I don't nessecarily expect this on a PVR, but it is so nice to be able to use my main PC for what it is intended and let the HTPC handle the media. In fact, the only thing MythTV is missing in IMHO is a way to auto-archive to DVD...but apparently there are those working on it.

Originally posted by plawor

I got into the PVR world about 6 months ago. After some research, I dove into MythTV. After almost 2 weeks of effort, I finally got things up and running, but not tuned completely to my liking. I consider myself an IT professional (not a developer, but a former network architect/administator) so I have pretty good UNIX, although not Linux-specific experience. Although impressed with MythTV and all of the exciting new features being discussed in the open source world, I soon became tired of Linux administration, driver issues, new builds, etc.

That sounds familar . I work as a Mac adminstrator (a rare breed indeed) and consider myself fairly quick on the uptake. However I find some of the Linux "hoops" to jump through quite absurd. Couple that with drivers written by those that have to take educated guesses (the IVTV drivers for the Hauppauge cards for instance) and you get a system that desperately tries to be stable, but needs constant attention. That said I have seen WEEKS of uptime on my box...

When it is all said and done I just want everything LOL
I may just have to take Sage for a test-drive to see for myself

[Hector]

Originally posted by shomann
Hello all...

I am currently a MythTV HTPC user and have been keeping an eye on the current crop of HTPC software over here in Wintel land for the past several months (if fact, it would be fair to say that I have been looking at SageTV, SS BTV and myHTPC as long as I have been into PVRs). Sage always struck me as sort of a Windows counterpart to MythTV in that they both have multi-tuner support and network distribution in mind.

Since I started as a nOOb in the Linux world in general, my MythTV experience has not been a smooth, easy journey. That would be the number one reason that a Windows based system still appeals to me...that and what seems to be a wider hardware support. However, I must say that there are features I have grown to love inside MythTV that I might be forced to give up if I make a move to SageTV. These include a super-easy DVD to AVI ripper, web interface (yeah, I could VNC for this), and commercial skipping.

This last feature, while about 80-90% accurate, is almost too painful to lose. My questions to the group are:

1) What sort of development time is there between major software changes/fixes? In MythTV world the speed is ultra-rapid, but the stability/usability usually takes a few tries for us simple non-Linux folk

(I feel a rant coming on)

Excellent to poor depending on who you ask and what hardware they have. Many of the users here have been Sage users for a long time and tend to be very lenient because they understand how complex some of the issues are.

However from a strict customer perspective there are serious known issues (esp if you use a pvr-350) that have persisted throughout beta and are now part of a 'release' version. Lots of finger pointing from customers (Intel, Hauppauge) but again from a strictly customer point of view that's irrelevant. I can 'fix' the OSD crash with Sage itself by disabling/enabling the UI and PVR350 in the right order so its hard to understand why at least a workaround isn't available. There is probably a reason but they are mute on it.

Other than almost 30 years in the business I have nothing to base this on. But what I believe is at issue is that like any other small shop (I believe there is only one engineer) they have to make big decisions with the limited manpower they have. It's understandable in that it's still a niche market. Consider how many more SageTV's would have to be sold to support another quality engineer and the dilemma is pretty clear.

I don't mean to be critical of small shops, I am part of one myself and we have to make the same sort of decisions for the same reasons. Sometimes the problems are just too big and the niche of those effected is just too small. If you fall into that niche you may be frustrated.

That being said if you don't fall into a niche problem area most customers would be very satisfied with the quick fixes and releases. A MythTV user has a cast of thousands so to speak and again Sage has but one engineer but he is brilliant and I say that with a lot of experience in knowing who brilliant engineers are.

And to be even more fair, I actually fall right into the niche problem area but I still recommend Sage without hesitation to those I thought it would be a good fit.

2) How does this Studio program I keep hearing about work? Can it tie into existing Wintel software to provide the coveted DVD to AVI ripping. Better still, can SageTV be adapted to archive to DVD-video? (I like DVDs )

Very little information on this so far. I do recall something I think Jeff said that led me to believe that Sage was extensible via plug ins and that being the case it could be very Myth like at the end of the day. That is without a doubt the BEST thing about Myth.

Keep in mind that unlike Myth Sage is a commercial enterprise but if you can extend it via plug-in . . .

3) Are there any other folks out here that have gone from MythTV (or other PVR) to find their home here at Sage to be more desireable?

I have sort of. I've tried most pvr's solutions and used the major ones (Myth, Sage, BTV, MCE, Tivo) extensively and each has its pros and cons.

Obviously all the opinion of a madman. Since MCE and BTV don't support hardware decoding I won't waste time on them.

MYTH

pros - fast development, high geek factor, nothing touches in it features/functionality. Open architecture, freely use recordings.

cons - If you want to turn having a functional PVR into a full time hobby here it is. Cost wise the 2nd most expensive.

SAGE

pros - Solid well designed, like Myth it brings all your media up through your Tv/AV system. Very configurable in a nice windows sort of way (as opposed to a compile the driver and edit with VI, Joe or Pico sort of way. Freely use your recordings. Depending on what Studio is it could well win the PC based PVR battle hands down. If its "just" a UI Construction Kit it will be very cool. If it also allows extension through plug-ins (like Myth) then it could dominate.

cons - Its the weakest at actually watching/timeshifting TV, esp IF (and I do) insist on the quality of hardware decoding. No close caption, no slow motion, no frame stepping, no smooth visible FF/RW. Without slow motion its terrible for sports. Also needs something like Tivo wishlists to be the complete solution. Cost wise the most expensive.

TIVO

pros - best BY FAR at simple watching/timeshifting TV. I still use a Series I (first on my block. The ability to write code for integrated and dedicated hardware are just tough to beat with a disparate system. For 5-6 years now it has done things the homebrew boxes just can't for whatever reason. Again I watch a lot of sports and nothing else comes close if you like slow motion and smooth transport. Cost wise the cheapest solution even with the monthly fee.

cons - Closed system, slow slow slow slow development. Even tho you can circumvent most corporate atrocities one thing is clear, it's not 'your' box. While Tivo is steady, there are many things you just can't do that PC solutions allow. For me Tivo is something I use while I wait for everyone else to catch up in the areas that they still haven't.

This post is NOT meant to fuel a debate over the better PVR software. I am mainly curious as to the real-world use and find the MythTV folk a tad defensive when it is suggested that a Wintel product is better (debateable) or easier (not debateable, I doubt seriously that it took anyone here several weeks of trying to get their PVRs up and running)

MythTV folk are defensive because they are *nix folk. They use Linux because its powerful, flexible and most importantly not M$. However they're crabby because they're jealous of the acceptance and resulting better software choices that windows allows in general. Its sort of like envying your neighbor because of all the cool things he has but you don't want to be him because he's a jerk.

I have a Myth installation that I don't even use any more. I use a Tivo and Sage box since neither meets my needs completely, but together they do a nice job. I use Sage to record just about everything I intend to archive. If Sage had better transport and slow motion I would probably switch completely but I just cannot imagine going through a season of NFL Ticket without slow motion.

In short try Sage, you'll be watching and recording right after you install it. You can easily make a drive image of your myth installation or just swap another boot drive in your box. For many people myself included Sage is an exellent choice.

What a nice rant that was.

peace . . .

[jominor]

Originally posted by Hector


Obviously all the opinion of a madman. Since MCE and BTV don't support hardware encoding/decoding I won't waste time on them.

[/B]

BTV does support hardware encoding. I think Sage looks better on the same hardware, but BTV does support hardware encoding.

[Hector]

Originally posted by jominor
BTV does support hardware encoding. I think Sage looks better on the same hardware, but BTV does support hardware encoding.

You're right of course, so does Media Center for that matter.

Partly I mispoke, my intention was to focus on support for hardware decoding for quality.

It was poorly stated so I'll edit it.

Thanks for the catch!

peace . . .

[mikejaner]

Its sort of like envying your neighbor because off all the cool things he has but you don't want to be him because he's a jerk.


That is about the best analogy I have ever heard about the *nix VS MS debate. Right on the nose.

I agree with Hector. I have about the same experience with Myth, Tivo, Replay, BTV, Freevo, GBPVR etc as him, and it all boils down to what you can live with and what you can't live with. IMHO the race is down to two at this point. Myth and Sage. They have the most features, best network capability (I don't count the streaming of windows media trick, cause it's built into the OS), and multiple tuner capability in one box. Sage wins for me because of the hardware decoder support, and it runs on Windows. Linux and Myth are just too hard for me, and with a daily update via cvs and constant crashes, I had to give up Myth to improve the WAF. Either that, or my wife would have had me set up the Series1 Tivo again.

[shomann]

Hector, that was a nice rant and I agree with all of it 100%. I guess what I am hoping for is a plug-in architecture to support my precious DVD ripping and archiving. This can't be easy to achieve.

I have decided to do a test build of Sage in the next week or so. Thanks to all for some good input and discussion...

[mostlyfodder]

shoman-
just quickly scanning this thread, i though you asked if a windows machine could rip a dvd to xvid quickly and easily.

once you build your windows machine, try this program called 'HGRip'. it does just that, and in only one mouse click:

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/jbgenov/



-fodder



ps- i think it only rips to xvid, but see the site for details.

pss- a fresh windows install and sageTV is a pretty easy and reliable setup. i've spent months configuring other setups, and i'm in PVR heaven. my #1 problem now is not having enough time to burn all this video data to dvd yippee, i never thought i'd reach this point but sage brought me here. oh and another fine-looking customizeable front-end called myHTPC, which isn't mandatory for PVR functionality but is a great menu-driven front end with multiple plugins and a great community of users.

[shomann]

Thanks mostlyfodder, I will look into it.

I actually prefer XVID over DIVX for what I am using it for so that program looks good.

I am in the same boat you are. My main PC has about 150GB of prgrams to archive to DVD. If I weren't so anal about my DVDs they would be done already . The good news is that for the most part I have several complete or nearly complete series that I won't have to re-record

[mostlyfodder]

shomann-

cool- i hope you enjoy hgrip.

btw, what program are you using to edit the sagetb MPEG files? and then what to author/burn them?

may i recommend a shareware program called VIDEOREDO. (it's similar to a program called WOMBLE, which i've never tried) i've got videoredo doing batch-processing overnight over a network, so i can spend just a few minutes (5?) making edits on about as many MPEG files, and then i just start videoredo and it batfch processes them all.

oh and i'm using ulead studio 3 to author my dvd's. it's not the most streamlined program suite i've used, but it came with my dvd burner and it works quite well.

-fodder