SageTV 2.0 Had no love for me...

[shomann]

I am taking the risk of serious flamage here, but I thought a follow-up to my original post http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...&threadid=5486
was only fair.

To recap, I took my HTPC offline 2 weeks ago to both try out Sage and to do a system refresh/upgrade (Antec Aria case - which I can recommend BTW, another 200GB HD). I had previously been using MythTV on Linux, so my hope with Sage was better hardware support through WinXP and the new interface of Sage 2.0.

Well... it went fairly well. The promise of a quick install and no configuration was a bit off, but easy to figure out. I had a little trouble with the OSD, but the picture quality was quite good - possibley better than Myth at the bitrate I was using. However, I was surprised to see that Sage silently quit on me overnight and then later that same day. Troubling. Then, of course, I started thinking about what I was giving up from Myth...

To make a long story short, I am back on Myth (Knoppmyth to be specific). Maybe I am hard to please, or that I was expecting HTPC nirvana. In any case, please don't think that I didn't give Sage every chance to prove itself. I still hold onto the hope that Sage continues to grow as rapidly and as successfully as it has to give us all more options.

Peace.

[xlr8shun]

my install was quick, took 2-3 min, configuration took a week or so to get it how i wanted it as far as picture quality, vmr, ffdshow, importing music, movies, etc.

if you like myth great, if thats what you want to use great, but to say you gave sage every chance doesnt sound right. it sounds like you gave it no more then 2 days max by your previous post. you didnt list any steps you took to troubleshoot, as what decoders your tried, what versions of java you tried, what hardware you are using, what diffrent drivers you tried, etc..

you obviously gave myth more of a chance then sage, lord knows you didnt get linux and myth installed your first time in less then 10 min, and im sure you didnt get it right the first time, how many installs did it take to get it right?

anyway, hope you're happy with myth, glad you found something you like.

[shomann]

Well, I gave it about a 3-4 day usage. I consider the install on any system to be getting it to a working, functioning state. I was using a bare-metal, fully upgraded WinXPSP1 install with nothing else installed. All drivers were upgraded to the newest versions. Java was the newest verion. I did find a bit of trouble in researching the "best" MPEG-2 decoder and I wound up using Elecard since I was merely trying it. Hardware wise, I am running a Shuttle MN31/N NForce2 mobo, Chaintech GeForce 5200 FX main video card, (2) Hauppage PVR-250MCE input cards, all with 512MB PC2700 RAM.

You are right that Myth took MUCH longer to install and in truth it probably dropped my tolerence level several points by not wanting to go through that much confusion EVER again. My evaluation of Sage no doubt suffered from this phenomenon. I have probably done 10-20 Myth intalls over the past 8 months and 2 Sage installs.

What it boiled down to for me was that I was fighting with Sage's interface more than I thought I would/should. Sage really failed me when it missed recording a test suite of TV shows getting the first 3 of 8 and then quitting. That was enough to go back to Myth...

I am open for suggestions, observations. I DID take my evalution seriously and continue to keep my eye on Sage for the future...it just isn't ready to compete with what I am used to

[falchulk]

I can build a system (hd, Mb, case, mem, wifi, nic, and cpu), install xp and sage in well under 3 hours. And thats giving it a lot of time to fix issues, install patches and having all my sage settings done. If you have the tolerence for Myth, you have no excuse for not being able to build a sage box. The only exception I could see is if you dont know/like windows and did not put full effort into it.

FYI, with that shuttle system, use the NVDVD codec. You will be amazed.

[shomann]

I was afraid if this...

I can build the Sage box, get it running properly with guide data and have it recording shows in the time you guys are suggesting...
THAT isn't the issue. Its stability on my system is the question along with some very strange OSD resizing issues. I knew going into Sage that I would be giving up a little functionality/feature set and I was cool with that, Sage just started giving me the same shades of strangeness as Myth.

I am sorry for posting a discouraging remark inside Sage's house. Like I said, I will keep my eyes open on Sage's development.

[mbrown3]

Hey, don't apologize for your honest comments. Some folks just take things personally because they've found Sage to be the best app out there for HTPC. But it does, no doubt, take time. I'm curious what features you were giving up by going to Sage from Myth? That's a new one that I haven't heard before. Anyway, I would suggest the InterVideo NonCSS decoders..they've had some bad press around here, but they consistently give me the best picture quality considering the consistency of them. Once I got those settings going, I've had zero problems and 100% functionality. The biggest issue is playing around with the decoders, which will be different for everyone and their respective hardware. Once they're set, I'll put Sage up against any other app and it comes out the winner hands down. It really would be worth giving it another shot, if you have the patience and are willing to try various decoders. And, as always, there are folks around here to help you along the way...

[shomann]

Rather than try to make a comparision, here is what I can do with Myth (the Knoppmyth distro) that I have come to love (in no order):

Skip commerical breaks (either auto or by keypress)
Rip DVDs directly to AVI, with queue (meaning I can just cycle DVDs into system and let the system bake all day...and still watch and record programs)
Intelligent recording with priorities (show A overrrides show B if show A has a higher number, Myth will try to record show B at another time)
Web interface that allows most organization features of TV recording/deletion
The ability to modify keybinding with support for one-touch-access to major locations
Variable bookmarking (can be auto as is Sage's default, can be user-selectable)
Serious uptime - like weeks

Things I DON'T like about Myth:
The file structure is by number only, making archiving a PITA
No archiving function built-in (either to DVD direct or to other location)
IVTV driver relience (the number ONE selling point to me about Sage is that it runs on Windows, meaning better driver support, both for input and output)
XvMC (hardware motion compensation, output) only works on certain cards (the picture quality was impressive on Sage to my eyes, but keep in mind I am trying for most shows over quality so I keep my bitrate low).

I FREELY ADMIT that my experience with Sage is my own doing. I guess I was expecting to have my "doors blown off" by simplicity - to me having to hunt down an MPEG-2 decoder is a back-wards step (but one that I would be willing to try)

How about a truce to see if Sage does better a 2nd time around on my box?

To that end, what could be causing the totally random quits? What causes the OSD weirdness (resizing off the screen)? What version of Java should I be running?

[mlbdude]

You are free to feel however you want, but I have to admit that based on your responses even it does not look like you put much effort into this. However, if Myth is doing what you want then why change to something you are not as familiar with?

Also, while some of those items will never be implemented directly into Sage, Windows users have been doing those items for awhile in the HTPC world. That is where the tinkering starts .

Skip commerical breaks (either auto or by keypress)

Since this can't be done reliably it is not worth doing.

Rip DVDs directly to AVI, with queue (meaning I can just cycle DVDs into system and let the system bake all day...and still watch and record programs)

A program you have to pay for will never do this since it is illegal.

Intelligent recording with priorities (show A overrrides show B if show A has a higher number, Myth will try to record show B at another time)

Sage does this now.

Web interface that allows most organization features of TV recording/deletion

Very high on the todo list at Frey.

The ability to modify keybinding with support for one-touch-access to major locations

Sage does this now.

Variable bookmarking (can be auto as is Sage's default, can be user-selectable)

That is cool. I think I will look into implementing that one .

Serious uptime - like weeks

How about months? Even with Windows working against it Sage just goes and goes. Like anything else though the parts Sage depends on (decoders etc.) will affect this greatly.

[shomann]

mlbdude, thank you for the leveled response and the break-down of features. While I still take a affront to the "he's not trying hard enough" argument, I appreciate the feedback. I really do think that Sage is only getting better.

Does anyone have a clear picture on what MIGHT be causing the random quits?

[mlbdude]

Do you have any hs_err_pidXXXXX.log files in your SageTV directory?

[krutaw]

Originally posted by shomann
mlbdude, thank you for the leveled response and the break-down of features. While I still take a affront to the "he's not trying hard enough" argument, I appreciate the feedback. I really do think that Sage is only getting better.

Does anyone have a clear picture on what MIGHT be causing the random quits?

Shomann,

I've often looked at myth (the grass is always greener) but found setting it up a total PITA. You mentioned knoppmyth, can you give some insight into how hard it was to actually setup? I'm curious whether it would be worth the effort to try out knoppmyth

[Opus4]

Originally posted by shomann
Does anyone have a clear picture on what MIGHT be causing the random quits?

No, and unfortunately, it just happened to me, after not having anything like this happen on my system for quite some time. Normally, my system is extremely stable & I had no problems while gone for a few days over the weekend.

Do you have any hs_err*.log files created when it crashes? I just got one.

I also realized that my server java installation was one revision behind my client's installation, so I updated it to 1.4.2_4-b05. I'll see if it happens again.

- Andy

[mlbdude]

Originally posted by Opus4
No, and unfortunately, it just happened to me, after not having anything like this happen on my system for quite some time. Normally, my system is extremely stable & I had no problems while gone for a few days over the weekend.

Do you have any hs_err*.log files created when it crashes? I just got one.

I also realized that my server java installation was one revision behind my client's installation, so I updated it to 1.4.2_4-b05. I'll see if it happens again.

- Andy

What kind of error was in that log?

[mlbdude]

Originally posted by krutaw
Shomann,

I've often looked at myth (the grass is always greener) but found setting it up a total PITA. You mentioned knoppmyth, can you give some insight into how hard it was to actually setup? I'm curious whether it would be worth the effort to try out knoppmyth

I would also like some info on this. I run Sage as primary but like to play with all of them. Last item that was bugging me with Myth that kept me from trying.... I hear that the SVideo out of ATI cards is not supported in Linux. Can you confirm this?

[Opus4]

Originally posted by mlbdude
What kind of error was in that log?

The first few lines are:

An unexpected exception has been detected in native code outside the VM.
Unexpected Signal : EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION (0xc0000005) occurred at PC=0x1DCDADA
Function=Java_sage_DirectX9SageRenderer_textureMultiMap0+0x18A
Library=F:\Apps XP\Frey Technologies\SageTV\Sage.dll

I sent it to support to see what they have to say about it... unless anyone here has an immediate idea. Like I said, this almost never happens on my system -- I'm the type to leave the thing running w/o any problems & only restart or reboot if I need to change a property or change something on the system.

- Andy

[mlbdude]

Good news about any kind of DX9 error. I had one and Frey told me how to fix it for good. Disable 3D Acceleration.

Some fix eh? Makes sense though, I don't have much that uses DX that can run forever without dying. Too many drivers in the mix.

[Opus4]

Originally posted by mlbdude
Good news about any kind of DX9 error. I had one and Frey told me how to fix it for good. Disable 3D Acceleration.

I was about to say that I always leave that disabled, but I figured I had better double-check it. Sure enough, it was enabled somehow. Strange -- I have no idea how that happened, since I have no need for 3D acceleration & always leave it off. (with the xcard on my server, I don't care about 3d accel & on my client, it causes stutters when the OSD is toggled during playback.)

Thanks for the reminder -- I'll see what happens now.

- Andy

[shomann]

I've often looked at myth (the grass is always greener) but found setting it up a total PITA. You mentioned knoppmyth, can you give some insight into how hard it was to actually setup? I'm curious whether it would be worth the effort to try out knoppmyth

Like Sage, MythTV has been steadily improving. The Knoppmyth distro has taken MOST of the pain assoiciated with a Myth install. It is based on Debian 3.0 and has some well thought out Linux addons. They JUST released a new ISO based on the newest Myth 0.15. Install is quite simple, download and burn ISO to CD, reboot with CD and install. It is script based and will sniff out the tuner cards. They have really stressed support for the Nforce chipset, but by no means is this the only way to go.

I suggest anyone that is interested in experimentation in Myth to try Knoppmyth. Those that like to really experiment should go for a Debian or Fedora (Redhat) distro.

I did not check for logs, so once again I am being schooled

I am beginnning my re-install of Sage in the next hour.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

[shomann]

I would also like some info on this. I run Sage as primary but like to play with all of them. Last item that was bugging me with Myth that kept me from trying.... I hear that the SVideo out of ATI cards is not supported in Linux. Can you confirm this?

ATI isn't as nearly well supported in Linux as NVIDIA is. Check out the GATOS project to see if they have cracked the S-Video bug.

[xlr8shun]

how come i dont get any hs_err* logs when sage crashes? i havent since i downloaded the final 2.0, i got them in the beta, as well as the sage logs. im assuming the sage logs were disabled for the final, which i thought was the same for the hs_err* logs as well, evidently they are supposed to still be created on errors?