2 x HD PVR in vSphere Hypervisor / ESXi 5

[korben_dallas]

Anybody using two HD PVR's in a SageTV Server VM ?

I'm looking at some upcoming hardware changes and grow weary of rebuilding my SageTV Server every time I change motherboards / hard drives.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

Anybody using two HD PVR's in a SageTV Server VM ?

I'm looking at some upcoming hardware changes and grow weary of rebuilding my SageTV Server every time I change motherboards / hard drives.

On ESXi 5.0 I currently have SageTV VM (3GB Win7 32Bit) and an unRAID VM (2GB) running on a SuperMicro X7SBE. On passthrough to the SageTV VM I have an AOC-SAT2-MV8 controller for HDD, AVer Media Duet dual ATSC tuner, Hauppauge HVR-1600 ATSC tuner, NEC USB 2.0 controller (for 2 HD-PVRs). On passthrough to unRAID I have an IBM M1015 controller connected to an Intel RES2SV240 to give me up to 24 drives for unRAID. So far they are working well. Still as reliable as before since I'm using the same NEC USB card for the HD-PVRs that I was before I virtualized my server. Don't use USB ports passed to VMs individually. Use a whole USB card on passthrough.

[will]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

On ESXi 5.0 I currently have SageTV VM (3GB Win7 32Bit) and an unRAID VM (2GB) running on a SuperMicro X7SBE. On passthrough to the SageTV VM I have an AOC-SAT2-MV8 controller for HDD, AVer Media Duet dual ATSC tuner, Hauppauge HVR-1600 ATSC tuner, NEC USB 2.0 controller (for 2 HD-PVRs). On passthrough to unRAID I have an IBM M1015 controller connected to an Intel RES2SV240 to give me up to 24 drives for unRAID. So far they are working well. Still as reliable as before since I'm using the same NEC USB card for the HD-PVRs that I was before I virtualized my server. Don't use USB ports passed to VMs individually. Use a whole USB card on passthrough.

It's good to know that this works with HD-PVRs.

When I upgrade my server in the future I was hoping to take Sage into a VM (through EXSi). Do you notice any performance issues and are you running anything CPU intensive like comskip?

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by will

It's good to know that this works with HD-PVRs.

When I upgrade my server in the future I was hoping to take Sage into a VM (through EXSi). Do you notice any performance issues and are you running anything CPU intensive like comskip?

One reason I chose this setup (Q9550 cpu) for this SageTV server was that it didn't do as much comskip processing as my other servers (4 total). It does do a little but it records mostly from premiums (HBO, Show, STARZ, HDNETM, TCMHD) and I haven't noticed anything in particular. I do get some recordings on HD-PVR's that require comskip like ABCFHD but I have the donator's version of comskip installed and use the "playnice" parameter so that it uses as little cpu as possible. I had it set to never run comskip while it was recording until recently. I never watch live TV so that wasn't a problem but it was getting behind on the comskip processing a little so I changed it. I still have it wait for the recording to finish but it can record one file and comskip another file at the same time.

I have another virtualized SageTV server that is OTA and QAM only no HD-PVR's. It does alot of comskip processing. I have a faster newer processor on it. SuperMicro X9SCM-F with Xeon E3-1230 with 3 VMs. SageTV on Win7 x64 6GB (6 x 2TB on M1015), WHSv1 2GB (4 x 1TB laptop on MB with RDM) and unRAID (#2) 2GB (15 x 2TB on M1015 to RES2SV240 #2). Will be switching MBs to get a full ATX of same class - same processor. New MB has more slots on it and can use more internal tuners and 2 AOC-SASLP-MV8s and M1015 for the VMs on it. So each OS gets it's own HDD controller on passthrough. Then the X9SCM-F and Xeon go to the HD-PVR box with PCI-e USB card.

I have a third SageTV server that is not currently and I don't expect it to be virtualized. On that one I use the SageTV transcoder and comskip for SD recordings on a nVidia Dual TV and HD AVer Media Duet for OTA. It is on a SuperMicro X7SBE with a Q9550 (2nd combo of this MB/CPU). This along with the other 2 above are in basement.

My 4th server is in living room (not virtualized) on a Asus P5Q-EM (Q6600) with Colossus, AVer Media Duet, HVR-2250 and was also my playback HTPC until TCM became TCMHD and playback from it started studdering. Now I went back temporarily to HD200. My Zotac zbox ID82 client in Bedroom (where HD200 came from) is an i3 sandy bridge and does NOT have the studdering problem. I will be upgrading this to an i3 server in the next year probably not until tax return next year. Then I can retire the HD200 again. I was playing back recordings from any server as I have it setup with service mode for the recordings so the GUI is a client only.

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

Don't use USB ports passed to VMs individually. Use a whole USB card on passthrough.

Q9550 (2nd combo of this MB/CPU).

Bob have you tried VT-d to pass-through the HD PVRs directly? My mobo supports all the VT-xyz, and I was looking at a Q9450 as the upgrade.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

Bob have you tried VT-d to pass-through the HD PVRs directly? My mobo supports all the VT-xyz, and I was looking at a Q9450 as the upgrade.

That is what I meant by passthrough. The X7SBE will do VT-d passthrough with the 2.0a bios. Earlier versions of the bios don't work. If you use the ports on your MB you need to passthrough that controller. DON'T use the ESXi virtual controller it isn't up to the task based on my using it for a HDD in a WHSv1 VM to backup WHS. It seemed to be half USB 2.0 speed. So better than USB 1.1 but still significantly slower. Plus I had problems with HD-PVRs in a NON-VM environment until I put them on the NEC USB card so I wouldn't even consider it any other way.

[wkearney99]

You've got an SAT2-MV8 working in pass-thru on an ESXi 5 server?

I've tried and it hangs the vmware host hard. That is, I set it up as pass-thru on ESXi, rebooted and then added it as a pass-through PCI device in a windows 8 guest. If boot the VM guest without any drives attached it seems to work. But if there are any drives attached the whole machine locks solid. Even the ESXi host.

This on a supermicro X7DWE motherboard with a pair of E5440 Xeons, 16gb of RAM, VT-d enabled and running the 1.2c BIOS.

I've set up other VM guests with other cards and those work fine. Specifically an IBM M1015 and an Areca 1260. Although the 1260 in JBOD mode seems a bit finicky about keeping drives alive, but seems to work otherwise.

[Skirge01]

I realize this is a bit of an old thread, but I've been searching for specifics on the NEC USB cards people are using and have come up empty. I'm also using vSphere 5.0 and noticed the severe lag for the HDPVRs over the mobo USB ports. Now, I'm trying to find a compatible add in card so I can enable passthrough on it.

Any suggestions?

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I realize this is a bit of an old thread, but I've been searching for specifics on the NEC USB cards people are using and have come up empty. I'm also using vSphere 5.0 and noticed the severe lag for the HDPVRs over the mobo USB ports. Now, I'm trying to find a compatible add in card so I can enable passthrough on it.

Any suggestions?

I'm using this NEC USB card in pass through currently. The only thing I don't like is that I'm passing through all 3 devices that it presents to ESXi 5.0. Wish it was like MB USB controllers so I could only pass 1 through to VM. I haven't researched what I could eliminated but I tried with only one of the three and had problems. Passing all three to the VM works fine but that only leaves me with 3 other devices to pass through for other tuner cards and HDD controllers.

[Fuzzy]

To clarify what is being talked about a bit, I don't believe VT-d can be used to pass through the HD-PVR's directly. It can only be done at the PCIe device level, in this case, passing through the USB controller itself (then, everything connected to it is then automatically passed through to that host). Using USB passthrough is a software level process, and likely to have complications with response time limited tasks such as the HD-PVR.

[wkearney99]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

To clarify what is being talked about a bit, I don't believe VT-d can be used to pass through the HD-PVR's directly. It can only be done at the PCIe device level, in this case, passing through the USB controller itself (then, everything connected to it is then automatically passed through to that host). Using USB passthrough is a software level process, and likely to have complications with response time limited tasks such as the HD-PVR.

That and virtualization is pretty much not ideal for timing critical applications. It's really not the same kind of machine as when running the OS directly on the bare metal. Combine that with the usual USB driver nonense and, well, you're not likely to get anywhere near the same performance or reliability as a direct install.

[Skirge01]

@BobPhoenix: Thanks!

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

To clarify what is being talked about a bit, I don't believe VT-d can be used to pass through the HD-PVR's directly. It can only be done at the PCIe device level, in this case, passing through the USB controller itself (then, everything connected to it is then automatically passed through to that host). Using USB passthrough is a software level process, and likely to have complications with response time limited tasks such as the HD-PVR.

You are correct about needing to pass through the controller. It would actually be impossible to bypass the controller, since vSphere needs to go through that in order to reach the HDPVR. Since it's passing the controller itself through, it's not able to only allow certain devices. This is also why you can't share a USB device with another VM.

Are you saying that using passthrough would actually be worse than using the mobo's USB ports (both scenarios being under vSphere)? Unless I've got something set up improperly, I hope you're wrong. My HDPVRs are taking up to a minute just for them to start capturing (e.g. when the blue light turns on) and several minutes before a program will stop.

[BobPhoenix]

Passing through the USB controller works for me the same as when I had it on my X7SBE without ESXi. I have had only a slight increase in problems since using the above USB controller on pass through. Going from 1 problem every 2-4+ months to 1 problem every 1-2 months after switching to the PCIe controller above and virtualization.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

@BobPhoenix: Thanks!



You are correct about needing to pass through the controller. It would actually be impossible to bypass the controller, since vSphere needs to go through that in order to reach the HDPVR. Since it's passing the controller itself through, it's not able to only allow certain devices. This is also why you can't share a USB device with another VM.

Are you saying that using passthrough would actually be worse than using the mobo's USB ports (both scenarios being under vSphere)? Unless I've got something set up improperly, I hope you're wrong. My HDPVRs are taking up to a minute just for them to start capturing (e.g. when the blue light turns on) and several minutes before a program will stop.

I was saying that passing through the controller is going to work better than using a 'Virtual USB controller' that handles the controller directly from the hypervisor, and virtualizes connections to individual USB devices (I honestly don't know if ESXi has this feature, but both VMWare Player and VirtualBox do).

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I was saying that passing through the controller is going to work better than using a 'Virtual USB controller' that handles the controller directly from the hypervisor, and virtualizes connections to individual USB devices (I honestly don't know if ESXi has this feature, but both VMWare Player and VirtualBox do).

Yes ESXi can virtualize it's own USB devices so that you could pass through individual devices to VMs. It is VEEERY slow not much more than USB 1.1 speed so would cause serious problems for a HD-PVR recordings. VMs also cannot boot from a ESXi virtual USB drive. You have to use something like plop and boot from CD or setup a virtual HDD boot drive. I was not able to get the VM to boot from a HDD on a controller set to pass through but didn't test VM bios changes extensively. I also never tried changing the VM bios to EFI.

[Skirge01]

I decided to give this one a try, since I have an open PCI slot I'll probably never have another use for.

[Fuzzy]

PCI passthrough may not be an option. I was under the impression that you cannot pass through an individual PCI device like you can PCIe devices. You end up having to pass through the PCIe-to-PCI gateway device, which will, on most motherboards, include all PCI devices (which may include the serial ports, keyboard/mouse ports, etc).

[Skirge01]

Not according to what I read. Unless I'm misunderstanding that, it should work fine.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

Not according to what I read. Unless I'm misunderstanding that, it should work fine.

To clarify, there was a bug in ESXi 5.1's release that made a lot of PCI device passthrough configurations NOT work. In those cases, many have found temporary relief by either sticking to ESXi 5.0, or passing though the PCIe-to-PCI gateway device, if the motherboard is using one. VMWare is aware of it, and I imag a fix is forthcoming, if not already out - just giving a heads up about it.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

To clarify, there was a bug in ESXi 5.1's release that made a lot of PCI device passthrough configurations NOT work. In those cases, many have found temporary relief by either sticking to ESXi 5.0, or passing though the PCIe-to-PCI gateway device, if the motherboard is using one. VMWare is aware of it, and I imag a fix is forthcoming, if not already out - just giving a heads up about it.

Good to know. Thanks. Thankfully, I'm still on 5.0.