how to build/buy a silent, small, cheap client?

[salsbst]

I'd like to build a PC with the following requirements:

a) silent
b) stereo audio out
c) composite video out
d) 100Mbit ethernet
e) small, moderately attractive (or better) form factor
f) USB port for USB-UIRT

silent
No fans, no harddrives means I will need to boot from the network? I figure P3's run cool enough that they can survive with a heatsink and no fan, right? P3 is enough for 480i?

stereo audio out
I guess this should be fairly easy to find on the mobo (once I find the mobo).

composite video out
Anybody know of a mobo that otherwise fits my requirements and has onboard composite video?

100Mbit ethernet
I would expect to find this on the yet to be found mobo.

small, moderately attractive (or better) form factor
Help! I've heard of "hush" and "shuttle" but I'm not quite sure what they are, or if they're in my budget. Info on the web is confusing. Can these things be bought as parts or are they just prepackaged machines?

USB port for USB-UIRT
Should be on the mobo, I guess.

What have you all done to build bedroom HTPCs?

[edmc]

For me, SPDIF is a requirement. More on this later, but to get DD5.1 I use AC3Filter which does a nice job of synthesizing DD5.1 from the Stereo broadcast via NTSC (and captured by my Hauppauge PVR-250s and ATI eHome tuner/capture cards).

I am currently looking to solve my heat problems - kind of a tradeoff with asthetics and noise, unfortunately. Also, kind of in competition with truly high performance "clients" (e.g. to support filters/tools like DScaler, ffdshow, AC3Filter, S/W HD MPEG-2/WindowsMedia-9 Decoders).

I'm looking at GbE rather than the widely available 100MbE. While 100MbE and 802.11a/g/atheros-extreme-g may be sufficient for NTSC, it is really pushing it for HDTV streams. True, your server could re-encode in lower res or some other codec, but that would be expensive and likely produce inferior results to just decoding the received MPEG-2 stream.

Finally, while booting over the network might solve the Hard Disk problems, what about the DVD drive? Do you really want to load DVDs into your Server and display them on the Client? Seems a tad inconvenient (though I'll concede ripping DVDs to the HD a model where this issue goes away). This is yet another reason for the Client to support SPDIF.

I personally haven't found the Hard Disk's noise to be at all an issue. Nor the DVD for that matter (though some models are quite noisy I'm sure). It's cooling them, the CPU, my ATI 7500 GPU, the Case, and that frickin Power Supply which is the noisy part.

My current thinking is:

...Option 1:
... - SilenX (or equivalent) Fanless 0 dBA Power Supply
... - Liquid Cooling for CPU, GPU, and Hard Disk
... - External Fanless Radiator for Liquid (does have a pump though)
... - Tuner/Capture card in HTPC
... - DVD in HTPC

...Option 2:
... - Same as above, except
... - Tuner/Capture card in Server
... - DVD in Server
... - 108Mb/s Atheros-Extreme-G 802.11g++) to Client
... - if it's fast enough, else GbE (yuck!)
... - Directional Antenna to allow Server where noise don't matter

On the networking front, I hear that there might soon be a in-the-house way to overlay GbE on top of the Cable running through the house - w/out interfering with any of the other signals (i.e. AnalogTV, DigitalTV, CableModem, and CablePhone). This might be an option so long as my "sound levels don't matter" location of the Server is (also) near a Cable Tap in the house or garage...

[Grasshopper]

Originally posted by salsbst
I'd like to build a PC with the following requirements:

a) silent
b) stereo audio out
c) composite video out
d) 100Mbit ethernet
e) small, moderately attractive (or better) form factor
f) USB port for USB-UIRT

silent
No fans, no harddrives means I will need to boot from the network? I figure P3's run cool enough that they can survive with a heatsink and no fan, right? P3 is enough for 480i?

stereo audio out
I guess this should be fairly easy to find on the mobo (once I find the mobo).

composite video out
Anybody know of a mobo that otherwise fits my requirements and has onboard composite video?

100Mbit ethernet
I would expect to find this on the yet to be found mobo.

small, moderately attractive (or better) form factor
Help! I've heard of "hush" and "shuttle" but I'm not quite sure what they are, or if they're in my budget. Info on the web is confusing. Can these things be bought as parts or are they just prepackaged machines?

USB port for USB-UIRT
Should be on the mobo, I guess.

What have you all done to build bedroom HTPCs?

With those specs, I'm not certain you really want a client PC -- perhaps you simply want a MediaMVP. There have been occasional rumors regarding development of a Sage client that'll run on it.

Downside:
No DVD
No Sage client interface (yet)

Upside:
Cheap
No configuration headaches
Quiet
Did I mention cheap?

[salsbst]

Thanks very much for your replies, guys.

I definitely do not want a MediaMVP because it doesn't run Windows. Thought about it, but no. No Windows, no dice in this case.

I have a client for the den where support for > 2 channels of audio and high end display are important.

This client, on the other hand, is for the bedroom where we just want to be able to watch reruns and listen to the media jukebox (J.River Media Center).

On the odd occaision that we watch a DVD in the bedroom, I'm more than happy to load it into a machine in the study (I have 4 of them in the study) for over-the-network delivery.

I'm starting to think about long cables and just keeping the machine in the study (which is next to the bedroom).

Can I get away with a 35 foot composite video cable? 35 foot USB cable? I know the audio can survive that length (since its just for output on little computer speakers the sound quality is not of much concern).

Eliminating the need for silence would drastically reduce the expense associated with building this thing. If I can stretch the cable lengths to 35 feet then I may be in good shape.

What do you think?

[salsbst]

I should have mentioned that Windows was a firm requirement before... sorry about that.

I'd still go for a silent client, but I have a feeling it might be difficult to keep it anywhere near the price of a more traditional box in my study with long cables.

[mdmint]

HD wise use a 2.5" laptop HD with adapter for standard IDE interface. Much much quieter and cooler running. (Thanks to the idea from Stranger9 it's exactly what I used in my client.) I know you said no fan, may or may not be practical, quiet fan wise I used an Zalman overhead mount with continuously variable thermal controlled 120mm AccoustiFan. Moves lots of air barely turning blowing down towards cpu, ram & video card.

When designing my system I originally considered long cables. High quality long cables would cost more than a quality quiet PC! (Short 1M med high quality cables $30-50 easy, I have lots of them, the best 1M cables a C note range each!)

[nielm]

a 'Hush' can be seen at http://www.hushtechnologies.com

Is is a fanless system enclosed in a solid aluminium case -- which acts as the heatsink for the system. Very good looking, but very expensive.

I have the Mini-ITX M10000 version, and I can only just hear a hard disk hum when it is on. It has just enough CPU power to render the Sage UI... playback is OK as it has a hardware assisted MPEG2 decoder. It gets quite hot, so needs to be well ventilated.

In retrospect, I would have been better off getting a standard (noisybut cheap) PC and putting it in the basement with remote control, SVHS and audio cables to the TV -- cheaper, and more room for expansion (I want to add more tuners and HDD's)!

Other small form-factor mini-itx systems can be found at http://www.mini-itx.com (including 2 other fanless systems the TranquilPC and the E-Otonashi.

[salsbst]

Thanks, nielm. The mini-itx link got me going again.

A company named Mapower has a product called S3000. http://www.mapower.com.tw/barebone.htm

Looks like it can be had for about $300 US. http://iocombo.com/product/showprodu...productid=09MR

Is 1 GHz enough juice? Can these things run with 3-D Acceleration (I doubt it, but had to ask)?

[SHS]

salsbst your only option is laptop

[stanger89]

salsbst,

One think you might want to look at is the mini-itx formfactor with something better than an EPIA.

For example you can get a Mini-ITX Pentium-M board and a Pentium-M (caution, I haven't done enough research to know if those two components work together) that would be more than powerfull enough for Sage playback, you could probably pull off some ffdshow on that if you wanted. Of course you could do something similar with a mobile Athlon XP.

One comment about the "den" PC, you'll want an AGP port for that so you can put an HQ video card in that one, I haven't heard of any embeded video that would qualify as HQ.



edmc,

HD Video (at least the kind we can get) is 19.4Mbps and that's nowhere near straining 100TX. Keep in mind HD is already compressed when we get it.

[salsbst]

The den PC is the one in my 'av setup' link in my sig. It's doing fine (though I need to re-paste the heatsink compound... put too much on it to push the processor on ffdshow.

EPIA seems a little underpowered for what I want, so the suggestion for Pentium-M is a good one. I'll take a look at that.

Thanks!

P.S. I'm going to start calling you 'stranger' now. Sorry, I just can't do anything but follow the crowd

[SHS]

2MB of L2 BooWoo they should put on L1 hehehe

[nielm]

Originally posted by salsbst
A company named Mapower has a product called S3000.
Can these things run with 3-D Acceleration (I doubt it, but had to ask)?

Looks like the same VIA EPIA M10000 motherboard as mine, but no mention of it being fanless and for $300, I doubt it... (the VIA M10000 mobo comes with a CPU fan, -- companies like hush and tranquil then remove it and replace it with passive cooling. they also try and minimse the noise from the HDD, and the case is sealed -- so no case fan either).
Also note that for $300 you get no RAM, HDD or OS!
Just as a comparison... Logic Supply sell Hush boxes, and once you kit them out with RAM, big HDD, DVD, WinXP and PVR-250, the price becomes a scary $1,359!

The M10000 can't do VMR9 at all, so no semi-transparent menus/OSD.

[stanger89]

You could always put one of these in just about any PC and make it nice and quiet (OK, so you can't actually put it in a PC.

FWIW My current setup consists of:
Ahanix D.Vine 4
1x 80mm Panalfo L1A in front
1x Stock 60mm fan in back
P4B 2.4
Zalman CNPS-7000AlCu
Sapphire Radeon 9500 non-pro 64Mb
Fortron P300-60PN w/ 120mm
1x WD2000JB
1x Seagate 160Gb 7200.7

And I would rank noise as:
HDDs > 9500 > (CPU = PS)

To put it in perspective, I have to get within 3" for it to register on my RS SPL meter, at about 2" it registers ~54dB. Also my Xbox is slightly louder than my HTPC.

As soon as I get a chance to build my workstation/server I'll be moving the HDDs to it and putting a 2.5" Laptop drive in the HTPC and it should be nice and quiet. I may put a Zalman heatpipe cooler on the 9500 then as well.

I guess the point is that with carefully choosen components you can get pretty quiet with even a rather powerful system.

[LaVike]

You could also go with a Shuttle ST61K ZEN. It uses a brick (like a laptop does) for the PSU so that is pretty quiet. It has all of your requirements and includes firewire too. For Small Form Factor (SFF) info go to www.sudhian.com. It talks a lot about small PCs. My only drawback to the ZEN is that it doesn't have firewire out the front panel (for hooking up my digital video camera) and it has ATI 9100 level graphics which doesn't support DVI. Might not be an issue for you.

I've got a SK41G with an ATI 9500 Pro 128MB in it. It works pretty well for me. When the ZEN offers DVI I might try picking one up.

[olyar15]

I am in the process of building a bedroom PC, mainly for listening to music. I also want it to be quiet, but with enough power to eventually run Sage client once I get a TV in the bedroom.

Components:
Via M10000 motherboard
Cubid 3688 case
256Mb RAM
IBM 340mb microdrive with CF to IDE adapter
no optical drive

I will be controlling it with a PDA running NetRemote.
I also picked up a 30Wx2 channel amp for $169. Best thing is that this amp has a remote turn-on with a +12V lead.

I will be installing Win98, slimmed down with Win98Lite. The only other programs that will be running will be JR Media Center and Girder, and eventually SageTV Client. All media will be on my file server.

The case does have a case fan, but I am hoping that it won't be needed if I keep the case vertical. The PSU is an external brick, so no PSU fan. Downside is that it has no PCI slot.

Of course, what I really wanted was the Hush mini-ITX system. Replace the hard drive with the microdrive and it should be absolutely silent.

[nielm]

olyar15: there are those that say that the CPU fan on the M10000 is very noisy (I wouldn't know ), and have proposed other solutions (undervolting it, replacement heatsinks etc)
Search the Via Arena Forums for "fanless" or "passive" to get a few posts...

[tlimon]

Have you tried:

http://www.silentpcreview.com

They have great ideas for building very quiet machines.

[timpreza]

I just finished building a bedroom client machine that I think meets all those requirements. It's based on the Mini ITX EPIA ME6000 and the attractive Morex Cubid 3677. It was relatively cheap, has all the required outputs, and it's completely silent (I didn't hook up the case fan). There's two catches. One is that you have to load a copy of WinDVD and edit the registry to turn on DXVA, otherwise it's not powerful enough to play mpegs. With DXVA on, it plays sage files and DVD's at around 50% CPU usage. The second is that the video drivers or the Intervideo decoder (not sure which) don't allow you to play encrypted DVD's in Sage. I had to purchase DVDIdle to get encrypted DVD's to play. Also some of the menu's are a bit slow updating and the TV-out underscan/overscan isn't very adjustable. If you can live with that, it's a great little client for just under $500.

Here's the specs in case anyone finds it useful:

Morex Cubid 3677S Case, $85.00, www.logicsupply.com
VIA EPIA ME6000 Motherboard, $129.99, Fry's
512MB DDR 266 Memory, $ 59.00, Best Buy
SAMSUNG MP0402H 40GB Hard Drive, $89.00 www.newegg.com
TEAC DV28E Slim DVD ROM Drive, $84.99, www.newegg.com
Chicony wireless keyboard, $21.00, local computer show
Steamzap Remote Control, $25.00 www.freytechnologies.com (purchased with Sage Client)

Just load and tweak SageTV Client, WinDVD, DVDIdle and Girder and you're on your way.