HDTV support, Place your votes!

[stanger89]

Seeing that Sage has reached a major milestone (2.0), and that HDTV tuners, interfaces and content are reaching new highs, it seemed like an appropriate time to make our opinions about HDTV support known.

So I've decided to post a poll to allow the Sage community to show their support for HDTV in Sage, and also what type of HD support would be most used.

Please vote for the one that you would be most likely to actually use not necessarily the one you think might be the "best".

For background reference, available PC HDTV recording technologies (not necessarily a comprehensive list):

Over the Air (OTA):
AccessDTV
ATI HDTV Wonder (soon?)
DVico Fusion HDTV
MIT MyHD
Sasem USB HDTV

Cable (QAM):
DVico Fusion HDTV 3 QAM
Sasem USB HDTV

Firewire (from cable/sat box/HD integrated TV):
HAVi
Vividlogic DTVR aka Firebus (not directly applicable to SageTV, more of an example of concept)

[stanger89]

FWIW, I'm putting my vote in for OTA, it's by far the most mature technology and if Sage were to support one of the HD cards, I'd jump at the chance to use it.

[stanger89]

Hey, if you've got thoughts on the matter, make a post.

[edmc]

If no 5C nor CableCard support possible in HTPC:
...I'd prefer FireWire
......I'd be able to record "non-controlled" programming at least
......I'd be able to view "controlled" programming via set-top directly

If 5C but not CableCard:
...I'd prefer FireWire
......I'd be able to record and view all programming

If CableCard, whether or not 5C:
...I'd prefer QAM
......I'd be able to record and view all programming
......I wouldn't need the set-top

Personally, I've come to believe two things:

1 - I once thought it unlikely that either 5C or CableCard will be supported in a PC which can also load *any* program (such as Sage), but have recently noticed that DRM is not that encumbered. Check out the DRM. Much as I hate the licensing model of DRM, I have to say that at least an arbitrary PC can playback such controlled programming. This is very promising news, imho.

2 - New boxes like Motorola's 6412, Moxi, HDTivo, etc... are really challenging the argument of a SageTV-like product - let alone an HTPC at all. There are those that want to do interesting things with the content captured on an HTPC, but the vast majority of folks out there simply want a friendly DVR which tunes and records and plays back all content. The "trusted" nature of such components and the effectiveness of their solution is rapidly closing the gap between the set-top and the HTPC-based solution.

Which one of these two trends wins out, I still don't know, but it does seem that both are going on and dramatically changing the ground rules and assumptions.

[stanger89]

My understanding of 5C/Broadcast Flag/CableCard (admittedly very limited) is that no platform will be allowed if unencryped content is available at any point to the user. And also that the recorded content will be locked to the machine that recorded it.

To satisfy that requirement, it would appear that the capture card (lets stick with CC/BF as it's easier to conceptualize) would have to encrypt the recording before it leaves the the card (possibly even before it leaves the demodulator chip). You would then have an unplayable encrypted recording.

In order to play that recording while satisfying the requirements, it would either have to be decoded/unencrypted by the capture card before output on a dedicated video out, or inside the GPU using something similar to DXVA.

Now to me, neither of these is desireable, but they would be potentialy acceptable.

[edmc]

> Now to me, neither of these is desireable, but they would be potentialy acceptable.

That's exactly what the DRM proponents have concluded...

[stanger89]

Yeah, we'll have to see just how intrusive whatever method is selected is. Something like I describe wouldn't change the way I use SageTV at all, and that's the important thing. The key thing these DRM proponents seem to be missing is that it must be transparent to the user, none of the current DRM schemes are that way (Corral Reef Adventure is close, but on-disk DRM doesn't seem to satisfy major content providers).

FWIW, I have all but given up on DVD-A and SACD, partially due to their DRM (can't rip them/play them in a computer). And most likely I'll do the same with HD-DVD and possibly HDTV if it works out the same way. I can get near HD quality out of my DVDs and near DVD quality out of my current cable TV, so if these HD format's are significantly less convenient than SD, I won't go there.

I still think DRM is naive and pointless, and I'm not the only one:
http://junk.haughey.com/doctorow-drm-ms.html
Even Microsoft has realized it:
http://msl1.mit.edu/ESD10/docs/darknet5.pdf

To bad the content providers and politicians haven't.

[stanger89]

I hope we don't scare anybody away with this banter.

[AJ Bertelson]

I am waiting for the RS5000-HD

[Deadbolt]

AJ, what is the RS5000-HD?

[AJ Bertelson]

Check out the AVS forum HDTV recorders section.

The title is new HDTV recording option

[Deadbolt]

I saw that article...but do you have the company link to the product page?

[salsbst]

I bought a Hipix back when I didn't realize that my apt building was converting the analog UHF channels to VHF (and completely blocking the digital UHF channels). Still have it. Never seen it go.

My building won't allow dishes

I have been trying to find out whether Comcast or StarPower deliver any unencrypted channels in the District of Columbia, but have yet to get any information one way or the other.

Seems to me that firewire has a slight edge in probability of being a real option for me, hence that's how I voted.

> Now to me, neither of these is desireable, but they would be potentialy acceptable.

That's exactly what the DRM proponents have concluded...

Ultimately, I'll probably just skip HDTV altogether if I can't record it to the device of my choice. I guess that puts me in the minority. Convenience and freedom over video quality. I have better things to do than to kowtow to "the man," and personally that's what I'd feel I was doing if I subscribed to an encrypted service.

[stanger89]

Originally posted by salsbst
I bought a Hipix back when I didn't realize that my apt building was converting the analog UHF channels to VHF (and completely blocking the digital UHF channels). Still have it. Never seen it go.

My building won't allow dishes

I have been trying to find out whether Comcast or StarPower deliver any unencrypted channels in the District of Columbia, but have yet to get any information one way or the other.

Check the AVS HDTV area, someone in DC on one of those providers has almost certainly posted there.

Seems to me that firewire has a slight edge in probability of being a real option for me, hence that's how I voted.


Ultimately, I'll probably just skip HDTV altogether if I can't record it to the device of my choice. I guess that puts me in the minority. Convenience and freedom over video quality. I have better things to do than to kowtow to "the man," and personally that's what I'd feel I was doing if I subscribed to an encrypted service.

Not completely alone, I don't think I'll completely avoid HD, I'll probably get an OTA HD card so I can record HD movies (not much else on network TV). I probably won't bother with HD Cable or Sat if I can't record it.

I've seen a little HD (mostly download trailers and the WMV-HD Coral Reef Adventure) and it's just not the groundbreaking improvement everybody says it is, the real improvement IMO, was from analog to digital 480 (DVDs/DBS/Digital Cable). The improvement of HD just isn't worth any loss in convenience, at least to me.

I guess the reality of HD is wearing it's novelty off me.

[salsbst]

You and I both have 1080i TVs... and pretty good post processing. If you take a digital cable signal to s-video and massage it to 1080i it looks pretty darned good. And we can record it (critical).

It would be great if a large segment of the market could get to this level before buying in to subscription-based, encrypted service. If that were to happen, we (the market) might have a better chance of pushing back on the encryption. However, I'm not holding my breath. Most of this forum is watching 480i. If this forum isn't upscaling to HD resolutions, who is?

Check the AVS HDTV area, someone in DC on one of those providers has almost certainly posted there.

I have poked around in the HDTV Reception area on AVS.... thing is, most of those guys are OTA, and the ones that aren't don't seem to be HTPCers. So far, the only responses I've found to the encryption questions (both my own and others' questions) are not based on fact, but supposition... and that supposition is the likelihood is that everything is encrypted or will soon be.

[stanger89]

Yup, I've got my setup where Cable is anywhere from Good to Almost DVD (or = poor DVD), and the difference between DVD and HD is not great (even without postprocessing), the Indiana Jones disks are a perfect example of this. Raiders of the Lost Arch, man I was blown away when I saw that DVD the first time.

It would be great if a large segment of the market could get to this level before buying in to subscription-based, encrypted service.

In reality, I don't think HD is going to be a huge thing for most people, my experience/intuition tells me you need at least a 50" display (and a good 50 at that) to appreciate HD, and something on the order of a front projector to really make it impressive. Under that, and I don't think most displays can really do HD justice. I know my 36" RCA (1080i) can't do HD justice, and my parents 46" Mitsubishi (also 1080i) is too poorly calibrated (I've done what I can), with an $800 ISF calibration I would probably be spectacular, but how many people would do that? I figure my parents are pretty average, and they don't seem to care much about HD.

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Of course, Jeff, Dan, if you're reading this, don't let it stop you, if you add support for an HD card, I'll definitely be trying it out.

[stanger89]

Salsbst,

You know, if you're in DC, you've got a decent shot of getting OTA with an indoor antenna. If I were you I'd pick up a Silver Sensor and give your Hipix a shot.

[Rob]

For me, its not just the OTA high def content, it is also the OTA 480p digital content. Even when it's just 480p, the picture (and 5.1 sound) using the AccessDTV and displaying on a 63" RPTV, just kills anything I can get through dish networks and the PVR-250 for the same station (well the analog counterparts to the digital channels). High Def is even better.

I'd love Sage support for the Accessdtv card; however, if Sage supports an OTA card other than the Accessdtv, I'd probably buy the other card in a hurry.

[stanger89]

FWIW, I hope they support the ADTV, there was experimental support for recording with it in 1.4, you might want to check out the hardware forum, it may still work in 2.0.

[JJarmoc]

FWIW, I hope they support the ADTV, there was experimental support for recording with it in 1.4, you might want to check out the hardware forum, it may still work in 2.0.

Nope.. it was sadly very 1.4 specific. It didn't support subchannels either, so was of limited use. Still, i'd love to have something like that in Sage2. I'm dying for HD recording so bad! I've actually gone back to using my old series1 tivo until I can do something with HD on the PC.

It sucks to miss out on HD, but I simply can't live without timshifting.