Open source HD400

[hb4]

Is it 'more users => more developers'?

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by hb4

Is it 'more users => more developers'?

I think generally the more users a project gains, the more likely you'll end up with a new user that is also a developer interested in improving/fixing things. This is partly why I have a great interest in increasing the user-base as much as possible.

[Skirge01]

Maybe this topic should be split out from this thread so we can further discuss how to make SageTV more welcoming and appealing to new users?

[technazz]

+1 for Shield

Use it for IPTV sub/ Plex Kodi. and Netflix. All good but I find myself on my Hd300 more often.

A native android app would be great!

[kevinlwh]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

I have to be honest here - I didn't find the true beauty of SageTV extenders until after Google showed up. When I realized how complete the extender experience was (HD200, HD300), I never looked back. It's so easy to purchase the box, plug it in, connect it to the server and go. Even my relatives can use it like they would a set-top-box.

Maybe I'm in the minority these days, but as a Sage USER, I would welcome an out-of-box extender experience like an HD400. I have a feeling that there are a lot more folks out there that would very much enjoy this, too, but they haven't even arrived here yet because of the work involved in getting a whole home experience with SageTV as it stands today.

The developers that are still here have done extraordinary things, and only a handful of them at that, but if you could cast SageTV to a TV without having to acclimate the client side by reading the forums for a month ... it could be really helpful to the average person.

Heck yeah...+1...and +5 more from the wife and kids!

[valnar]

While this may not be the appropriate thread, can anyone speak to the video quality of the Mi Box or any other Android client? I'm quite spoiled by my Sigma based HD300 and so far nothing else has touched it. The only way to improve it would be to include a better scaler, but since it supports native resolutions (480p, 720p), I leave that to my TV.

I tried playing with the Raspberry Pi2 and some other low-cost devices, but it wasn't the same. There is a reason Sigma devices cost a lot of money, I suppose.

What I'm saying is, if it's also possible to cater to the high-end, *IF* more expensive Android devices have better quality, that would be my interest in an HD400 substitute. After all, we Sage users are a discerning bunch. I'd rather watch H.264 on an HD300 than H.265 on something that doesn't look as good, especially since 4K would bring out the imperfections even more.

[gclayto]

I guess I'm confused by the concept of the HD400.
Can someone clarify what is being proposed here?

Is this going to be a Linux-based OS that will need to be flashed to a rooted android box? What is the advantages and disadvantages of this method?

Or

Is it an android app that will auto start? What is the advantages and disadvantages of this method? If this is what we're talking about what is the difference between this and the mini-client set to auto start when the device is turned on?

Or

Is it something else?

[mikejaner]

Originally Posted by _Demo_

Yes that's right for reprogramming an android box, my current target device are S905X based boxes.

Regarding making an app instead, the main issue is that for many features missing the app doesn't seem to have enough control over the box.

I am not sure if S905X and S905 are the same thing. Apparently the box I ordered over the summer is an S905. If that would work for what you are trying to do, I am availible for testing it with your client when you get to that stage.

[valnar]

To add to my question above -- Are there any high-end Android boxes besides the NVidia Shield? Maybe something that runs a Sigma SOC?

[Monedeath]

Just to throw my 2 bits into the mix:

Would love to have a new SageTV Player that could use the SageTV remote from the old extenders. (Could we get more made?)

That being said, I think the current focus should be on encouraging new people "to get their feet wet" with SageTV and grow the user base, which should in turn lead to more people interested in helping develop it further.

For that, we need a working client that is available on devices which are both already fairly widely dispersed into the world at large, and is likely to be supported long enough to justify the time developing for them.

I also think that having a "preferred" device or two where most development efforts are focused on maximizing/optimizing the experience is a good strategy to pursue. As already brought up, it is very likely that many of the optimizations that happen in the course of doing that will also be applicable to many other Android devices as well.

The Nvidia Shield seems to be a strong candidate for seeing such focused attention, and from the looks of things in this discussion, perhaps branching into the Mi may be an idea as well.

While we may be trying to attract the attention of potential developers in particular, many of whom potentially are likely to have a Shield, I doubt they'd want to pony up the cash to put a ShieldTV on every TV set they have in their house. So the Mi, or something like it would be a good fall back.

[drvnbysound]

Certainly an interesting discussion. I try to check in from time to time, but certainly haven't kept up in months as we sold our home back in August and just starting to get settled into the new place after some remodeling. Having said that, I figured I'd take a few minutes to add my $0.02

As an installer / integrator, I meet and greet clients on a fairly regular basis that want a media center solution. In all honestly, I haven't recommended one to anyone in years. I'd explain that I bought my Sage extenders shortly after the Google purchase, but that they were really no longer available. As the installer / integrator, even if I could get them, I'd have a hard time selling HD300s with no obvious support. That's the case with practically most every solution out there.

As mentioned above, I know that I'm not in the loop with the latest developments with the app based client and what various hardware platforms it runs on; I've seen mention of the FireTV, Shield, and others. Having said that, what level of comfort should I realistically have in any of those platforms... to a 45+ yr old client, who has NO care to get involved here, but just wants a SOLID platform that just works? I don't want calls because the hardware platform's OS updated, and now the app has crashed, etc. Then I've got to come here and wait for fixes with he's w/o TV for who knows how long. HD quality (1080p, 4K), surround sound (Atmos), etc. are requirements too. Who wants a theater w/o quality?!

To me, that was the beauty of the HD200/300 extenders. They just worked - like the appliances they were. I've got 4 of them right now; granted they are in the closet, because I haven't got into the attic yet and wired this house, but it's coming! I've got 4,000-ft of Cat6 waiting to be pulled. I'll potentially end up with 6 TVs in this home. No one is being fooled, my HD200s are technically outdated. I'm going to want to upgrade... I'm undecided at this point as to what I'm going to do. Certainly welcoming of a HD400 solution... as well as feedback regarding the client conundrum.

Oh, and Happy New Year ALL!

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by drvnbysound

As an installer / integrator, I meet and greet clients on a fairly regular basis that want a media center solution. In all honestly, I haven't recommended one to anyone in years.

Having said that, what level of comfort should I realistically have in any of those platforms... to a 45+ yr old client, who has NO care to get involved here, but just wants a SOLID platform that just works?

I'll be honest... you are in the wrong forum for "just works"... and I'm not sure you are going to find a "right" one Even when SageTV was a product, it didn't fit the "it just works" model. You can get it to a point (like we all have) where it works well, but, nothing out the box "just works"... it was close, but still not close enough that I'd recommend it to anyone other than a techy. And in the Open Source world, it's not better. Open Source sagetv is hobby tv platform, like MythTV, MediaPort, gbPVR, nPVR, and the list goes on... No one here spends more than a few minutes a day on it, and when you have time, the effort goes to what the individual wants, and not whats best for the product...

While a HD400 would be great for this community, as another, cheap means, to extend sagetv to your TV... it's never going to grow the community. PVR people already can test out sagetv with just windows/linux (maybe mac)... so having another client isn't going to grow anything.

Let's face it... PVR people are cliquey... You have your MediaCenter camps, MediaPortal camps, MythTV camps... SageTV camps... there's probably still BeyoneTV camps... (along with many other camps, tvheadend, freevo, gbpvr, etc, etc) People will rarely cross camps, and when they do, it's because the camp they chose, went dead. People that use a PVR fall into the 2 main categories... the "just works" will be using the PVR that ships with their cable/sat company... and the other, very small groups (like us), recognize that nothing is going ever "just work" but the goal is to get a stable environment with lots of control and flexibility... that's what PVR solutions have historically brought to the table.

Anyways, this is more of a realistic/sobering view of SageTV today... I personally don't think this community is going to grow much beyond what we have. A HD400 will be great... an AppleTV client will be great... but neither is going to grow the user base (at least not the technical user base) by much.

[drvnbysound]

Originally Posted by stuckless

I'll be honest... you are in the wrong forum for "just works"... and I'm not sure you are going to find a "right" one Even when SageTV was a product, it didn't fit the "it just works" model. You can get it to a point (like we all have) where it works well, but, nothing out the box "just works"... it was close, but still not close enough that I'd recommend it to anyone other than a techy. And in the Open Source world, it's not better. Open Source sagetv is hobby tv platform, like MythTV, MediaPort, gbPVR, nPVR, and the list goes on... No one here spends more than a few minutes a day on it, and when you have time, the effort goes to what the individual wants, and not whats best for the product...

While a HD400 would be great for this community, as another, cheap means, to extend sagetv to your TV... it's never going to grow the community. PVR people already can test out sagetv with just windows/linux (maybe mac)... so having another client isn't going to grow anything.

Let's face it... PVR people are cliquey... You have your MediaCenter camps, MediaPortal camps, MythTV camps... SageTV camps... there's probably still BeyoneTV camps... (along with many other camps, tvheadend, freevo, gbpvr, etc, etc) People will rarely cross camps, and when they do, it's because the camp they chose, went dead. People that use a PVR fall into the 2 main categories... the "just works" will be using the PVR that ships with their cable/sat company... and the other, very small groups (like us), recognize that nothing is going ever "just work" but the goal is to get a stable environment with lots of control and flexibility... that's what PVR solutions have historically brought to the table.

Anyways, this is more of a realistic/sobering view of SageTV today... I personally don't think this community is going to grow much beyond what we have. A HD400 will be great... an AppleTV client will be great... but neither is going to grow the user base (at least not the technical user base) by much.

Sadly, I think you're 100% right but I also think a lot of that is also the inherent problem. There are a lot of people who are 1) unsatisfied with provider based systems and 2) want a centralized media center platform. As you explained, there are a bunch of communities and projects that do it. The problem is that they are all "developmental hobbies." I think that's where the limitation is. It can't grow into the mainstream home (LARGE userbase) because it's not those things you touched on, and the mainstream user doesn't want to tweak it on a regular basis.

I had been following Sage for a few years, and when I decided to pull the trigger I jumped on and tried to purchase a few HD200s to find that the Google buy-out had happened. After some dust had settled, I found used HD200s. I ran the server installer, connected some HDHRs, and HD-PVRs... and I was off. I really didn't touch anything else. It was solid.

For me too, the hardware extender was something that NONE of the other "projects" had. At the time, they either required a HTPC at each TV, or maybe some 3rd party hardware with some rooted software. The extender was a plug-and-play device - with a pretty nice remote that allowed it to be comparable to any other AV gear out there... not a one-off.

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by drvnbysound

Sadly, I think you're 100% right but I also think a lot of that is also the inherent problem. There are a lot of people who are 1) unsatisfied with provider based systems and 2) want a centralized media center platform. As you explained, there are a bunch of communities and projects that do it. The problem is that they are all "developmental hobbies." I think that's where the limitation is. It can't grow into the mainstream home (LARGE userbase) because it's not those things you touched on, and the mainstream user doesn't want to tweak it on a regular basis.

I had been following Sage for a few years, and when I decided to pull the trigger I jumped on and tried to purchase a few HD200s to find that the Google buy-out had happened. After some dust had settled, I found used HD200s. I ran the server installer, connected some HDHRs, and HD-PVRs... and I was off. I really didn't touch anything else. It was solid.

For me too, the hardware extender was something that NONE of the other "projects" had. At the time, they either required a HTPC at each TV, or maybe some 3rd party hardware with some rooted software. The extender was a plug-and-play device - with a pretty nice remote that allowed it to be comparable to any other AV gear out there... not a one-off.

I agree... SageTV had 2 competitive advantages (serveral years ago).
1. It was a commercial entity with support and guide data as part of a cheap one-time license cost.
2. It had extenders. Extenders were not cheap, but, they were cheaper than a full blown PC, and they were relatively solid. (We've all had issues of overheating, blown capacitors, freezes, etc, but for the most part they were solid).

Today, all of the PVR solutions (except for sagetv) generally has a good integration into a solid client, whether it's Plex, Kodi, or just a native app, so low cost extenders are a dime a dozen, so that advantage has been lost. And obviously, as an open source solution, it's on equal footings with other open sources solutions. And solutions like Plex/Emby has really leap frogged it in terms of media management.

[stanger89]

The real problem going forward, IMO, is the evaporating need for a PVR in the first place. Or maybe I should say, the evaporating need for a PVR that developers without "unlimited" resources can build.

Cable prices keep going up, while what I actually watch from cable keeps dwindling. About a year ago I took a hard look at what I watch, what I pay, and what the alternatives are. It turns out that everything I care about is available through some OTT service that is incompatible with SageTV or any other free/Open Source/Small Developer solution.

For now, I'm still with Cable/SageTV because when I add up the OTT service costs, plus the loss of discounts on my internet service, the difference is negligible compared to the convenience of having "everything" available through SageTV. Of course I'm also really lucky to have a provider who provides all the major networks in HD via clear QAM which fits very well with SageTV.

However I can see the day (not sure when) I will cancel my cable subscription and that will most likely mean the end of SageTV for me. That's a day when I'll be using a media center system for my ripped/owned content, and streaming devices for my OTT/rental/subscription content. Unfortunately Sage doesn't fit into that environment.

I say the following with great respect, and no offense intended toward the great work of the plugin makers here... But SageTV is just not a great media center app, it never has been. If you take live TV/recording out of the picture, SageTV just doesn't compare/compete well with the likes of Kodi, Plex, Emby, etc. The media center features of SageTV are, and really have always been, just acceptable/usable only when in the context of already having a SageTV setup.

In fact I already stopped using them quite a while ago, I run Kodi (ala LibreELEC) for all my ripped media, it's faster, easier, looks better (UI) and is more supported.

From a marketshare perspective, I would say the future has to be as a media center, but that's a market that there really isn't a niche left to fill, and Sage would have quite the big hill to climb to compete in.

stuckless used the term sobering, and I think that's a great way to put it. I'm very glad Google OS'd SageTV, I'm very glad that it still works, and I'm optimistic that it will keep working for the lifetime of recording TV. The sobering reality is that I don't see the lifetime of recording TV being all that long anymore, and I don't really the interest, or need for SageTV to be morphed into something it never really was. I suspect Jeff went through much this same realization before he sold SageTV to Google.


Oh, to finish the thought I dropped at the beginning, there is a need going forward to have some sort of, not a PVR, but a content aggregator. I think we've talked about this before, but this is my dream product (which I've had a glimpse of with Kodi). Basically a system with plugins/access to all the OTT services, Netflix, Amazon, PSVue, etc, and an index of all their content. From there you could setup something like SageTV Favorites, but instead of recording things, it would basically pull shortcuts from those services into your own personal collection. So you could setup a favorite for The Grand Tour and it would put that in your library, and when you pick it to play, it would stream it from Amazon. Doctor Who, it would pull that from Netflix. Basically you'd have your list of shows you care about, they'd be available in a list to you, and they'd stream from whatever service offered them. There was a plugin for Kodi (maybe USTVVOD still does this), where you could basically do that, you could add OTT shows to your library from ABC/etc, and they'd work just like your local/ripped/owned shows, but they'd stream instead of come off your server.

Unfortunately, every OTT provide wants to control the experience, so they don't allow this sort of integration. Roku's universal search is about as close as I've seen, but it's not there, and I fear this desire for control will make it impossible for any small player to ever build such a solution.

[SomeWhatLost]

I semi-agree with the doom and gloom theory... the big difference for me is that I have found that as it becomes more difficult to manage the different OTT options and integrate them with sage, I just quit... gave up on them....
I find, for me personally, that Sage + OTA + the (somewhat lacking) Media Extender + Netflix (DVD) + the occasional bought BR is more then enough TV/Movie viewing time... and just do other stuff with my new found free time instead...
(sadly, not productive "other stuff", or any better use of my time, just different... play video games, drink excessively, etc..)
I still have ~5TB of recordings I need to catch up on...

and while it would be nice if "the (somewhat lacking) Media Extender" capabilities were better, and I am sure as time goes by they will get better, and they are mostly fine for now...

as far as Sage not being a reliable install goes, I have to completely disagree... while my setup can be a bit "finicky" , mostly cause I like being on the bleeding edge... or because I fiddle with stuff? I felt 100% comfortable setting up my extremely non-technical mother with a sage + hd300's setup, she uses it all time, the only support calls I received were network related (old router was dying, everything IP based was having issues), someone (she is the only one there?) unplugged an enet cable, and lastly, one dead recording HDD (standard used consumer drive, lasted about 5 years or so of regular sage use, then completely died... not sure how old it was before sage, 500GB, so couldn't have been too old?, now it is a NAS rated drive, should last longer, I hope...)

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by SomeWhatLost

as far as Sage being a reliable install goes, I have to completely disagree...

And I agree... so when I say "just works" I'm really referring to the out of the box minimal setup type of configurations (unRAID is close for me). Once SageTV is setup, and you are not messing with it, it's rock solid. I can probably count on one hand the number times I've had to reboot sagetv server because it just stopped working... but in all those cases, I was travelling somewhere (and I rarely travel). (Rebooting extenders happened more often).

Everytime I setup some server (plex, etc) for someone and I think this this is idiot-proof, surely I will never get a support call on this... and yet I'm somehow surprised when I get the call that "it's not working"

[SomeWhatLost]

Originally Posted by stuckless

oops... I meant as far as Sage Not being a reliable install goes"

that not makes a world of difference...
a basic SageTV server + HDx00's + HDHR (OTA/QAM only) install, where you don't load it up with the plugin of the month, or do lots of funky stuff is a very simple and reliable setup...

[wayner]

Originally Posted by stuckless

Let's face it... PVR people are cliquey... You have your MediaCenter camps, MediaPortal camps, MythTV camps... SageTV camps... there's probably still BeyoneTV camps... (along with many other camps, tvheadend, freevo, gbpvr, etc, etc) People will rarely cross camps, and when they do, it's because the camp they chose, went dead.

I have actually been in all three camps. I used BeyondTV for a while, went to WMC because they had the Linksys WMCE54AG extenders and BTV died. I then went to SageTV as WMC was not a solution for HD (at least not in Canada) because they didn't support the HD-PVR at first, and the WMC extenders stopped being made.

On a related note, I have about five of the Linksys WMCE54AG. If anyone know anyone who wants them they can have them for the shipping cost.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by wayner

I have actually been in all three camps. I used BeyondTV for a while, went to WMC because they had the Linksys WMCE54AG extenders and BTV died. I then went to SageTV as WMC was not a solution for HD (at least not in Canada) because they didn't support the HD-PVR at first, and the WMC extenders stopped being made.

I had a slightly different journey. WMC > BeyondTV > SageTV. I eventually found WMC to be far too limiting in all directions. BeyondTV was recommended by a friend and it served me well, but it was never a complete solution since it strongly focused on TV. Beyond Media was so incomplete looking to me that I never bought a license. I was using MediaPortal for media since I was using a PC anyway. SageTV is a great PVR, never makes me feel like I'm being limited and allows me to access all of my media through the same interface.