HTPC = Big Disappointment when it comes to TV-OUT!!! HELP.. HHHEEELLLPPP

[Gemini1706]

I just started researching building my first HTPC, and been reading a few months every now and then, found this great forum and other forums around the web.

As much as the project sounds interesting (to replace TiVo, and more), it is very disappointing to find many hurdles and problems, sometimes with no clear way to solve..

I have a HDTV Sony WEGA 36", Pentium III 1GHz, ...etc.

The most disappointing is: TV-OUT.. what a big problem (here we go):

1- WinTV PRV-350, you can use TV out ONLY to playback recodered mpeg shows = No way to playback DVDs, or browse the web ...etc. (though you can do overlay for the plaback)..
2- DVD decoders (See this thread ) can playback mpeg and dvds, but NO way to see the computer on TV or browse the web ...etc.
3- ATI Radeon cards (9600 and up), with HDTV COMPONENT ADAPTOR (FAQs) does NOT have TRUE MPEG Hardware Decoder (they called Enhanced Decoder, but it is still software), and it resitrctes DVD playback to 480p (see FAQs), and it has OVERSCAN... GOD.. OVERSCAN? I prefer DVI with powerstrip..

I have been thinking of just getting one of those very very expensive HTPC with Windows XP Media Center Edition (>$1500) and get the XBOX Media Center Eextnder Kit (To Be Released Soon ), at least it is gonna be as cheap as any of the other solution above!!! (Considering you need high-end PC for the software Decoding of ATI, or High End Graphics Card for web browsing....etc.)..

I know I am frustrated, so take this lightly


Any HELP? Sorry for the long thread...

I just want to use my older computer (Pentium -III 1GHz) with some cheap hardware (PVR-250, or 350) and a good TV-OUT solution that makes me treat the TV as a monitor (for browaisng ...etc.) and has mpeg hardware deconsing.. IS THIS HARD?



Cheers...

A Frustrated Noob....

[SHS]

My guest is that you did not read this forum very well it has been said min time there be no DVD support for the 350 TV output.
The only close solution for part of what you asking JovePlayer and REALmagic Xcard but you will not get Windows Decktop you need reg Video for that.
I belive that for up coming Xbox 2 not the Xbox 1.

[stanger89]

Everything you list here is very possible, but there are a couple flaws in your plan I think.

Originally posted by Gemini1706
I just started researching building my first HTPC, and been reading a few months every now and then, found this great forum and other forums around the web.

Research is the best way to start

As much as the project sounds interesting (to replace TiVo, and more), it is very disappointing to find many hurdles and problems, sometimes with no clear way to solve..

I have a HDTV Sony WEGA 36", Pentium III 1GHz, ...etc.

The most disappointing is: TV-OUT.. what a big problem (here we go):

Why do you want to use TV-Out with an HDTV, that's just wrong.

1- WinTV PRV-350, you can use TV out ONLY to playback recodered mpeg shows = No way to playback DVDs, or browse the web ...etc. (though you can do overlay for the plaback)..

Exactly just use a 250 and the DVI/VGA/Component output of your video card.

2- DVD decoders (See this thread ) can playback mpeg and dvds, but NO way to see the computer on TV or browse the web ...etc.

Just like 1), use the DVI/VGA/Component output of your video card.

3- ATI Radeon cards (9600 and up), with HDTV COMPONENT ADAPTOR (FAQs) does NOT have TRUE MPEG Hardware Decoder (they called Enhanced Decoder, but it is still software), and it resitrctes DVD playback to 480p (see FAQs), and it has OVERSCAN... GOD.. OVERSCAN? I prefer DVI with powerstrip..

Then why don't you use DVI and powerstrip. The Component adapter serves two purposes 1) supplies component out for those with no other option, and 2) provides plug and play setup for those who don't want to mess with Powerstrip. If you aren't afraid of powerstrip, and can do DVI/VGA then that is a much better/more flexible way to go. And who cares that Radeons don't have full HW decode (asside from the fact that their marketing is of questionable ethics). PCs are more than capable of great MPEG decoding via software with or without the help of DXVA.

I have been thinking of just getting one of those very very expensive HTPC with Windows XP Media Center Edition (>$1500)

Expensive and inflexible

and get the XBOX Media Center Eextnder Kit (To Be Released Soon ),

Now that is rather neat, but unless MS changes something, you'll be limited to 480i with the Xbox, currently DVD playback is limited to 480i w/o hacking it.

at least it is gonna be as cheap as any of the other solution above!!! (Considering you need high-end PC for the software Decoding of ATI, or High End Graphics Card for web browsing....etc.)..

You don't need a high-end machine, A 1G PIII with a decent graphics card (read Radeon 8500) should be able to do MPEG decoding in software/DXVA, and if you have DVI in you don't need the component adapter (which works on sub $100 Radeon 9600s)

I know I am frustrated, so take this lightly


Any HELP? Sorry for the long thread...

I just want to use my older computer (Pentium -III 1GHz) with some cheap hardware (PVR-250, or 350) and a good TV-OUT solution that makes me treat the TV as a monitor (for browaisng ...etc.) and has mpeg hardware deconsing.. IS THIS HARD?

Again:
1) You have an HDTV, don't use TV-out
2) HW decoding is unnecessary
3) Even if you need to build a new PC you can do so for under $500 probably.

Cheers...

A Frustrated Noob....

Don't give up yet.

[mikejaner]

Media Xtender is for Xbox1

[SHS]

Sorry mikejaner but Im pettey sure that the Xbox 1 not going cut it after all under MCE there using wapper ASF for ms-dvr files which going need High End Graphics chip and much faster CPU then P3 733 to help with off load some decoding you do know that Xbox is using nVidia GeForce 2 which had no hardware acceleration.

[mikejaner]

From what I have read Xbox has somewhere Geforce 3 and 4 video capability, and Microsoft is coding in MPEG2 with an ASF wrapper. Xbox is perfectly capable of decoding that type of file. Plus think about it, they know the hardware, have the drivers, and can shift some of the processing on the MCE box for de-wrapping the ASF. I am certain they can do it on Xbox1.

Oh, and it's slated for "The 2004 Holiday Release" and I don't remember any press about the Xbox2 coming out at the same time.

[mls]

I'm not sure why they put both comments together, but here's a quote from the Microsoft site:

Q: Will the software xbox MCX be downloadable for free or for a price?
A: It will not be free. It will include
some hardware that is needed.

The "will include some hardware that is needed" part may indicate they are upgrading the video card? CPU? I don't know.

[mikejaner]

No, they are taking about a receiver for the MCE remote. They would not make a video card upgrade. I don't think that would even be possible witout cracking the case and replacing the MB.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/m...tenderkit.mspx

[stanger89]

The Extender kits are for the current Xbox, the next one is still 2 years out AFIAK (and sounding very impressive I might add).

Actually the Xbox GPU is officially the NV2A, which is is basically a Geforce3 but with an extra Vertex shader. Plus since it's based of the nForce (which has a Geforce MX NV11 core) it's not unreasonable to assume that it has the VPE/DXVA features of the MX line as well.

But that's my favorite thing about the xbox, here we have this little (OK huge by console standards) PC with 733MHz Celeron and Geforce 3 with 64MB total memory, that pumps out pictures that put hot-rod desktop gaming systems to shame. We've got DOA3 and Project Gotham Racing that were out at launch that looked, make that still look better than most PC games, plus now there's PGR2, Ninja Gaiden, Brute Force, etc. that are all awesome. Just goes to show ya what good coding can do.

Anyway, that's way OT.

Gemini, I saw you posted at AVS to, make sure to let us know if you still have questions.

[stanger89]

Originally posted by mls
The "will include some hardware that is needed" part may indicate they are upgrading the video card? CPU? I don't know.

I doubt it, AFIAK, everything in the Xbox is surface mounted, the CPU and GPU/northbridge are mounted directly to the PCB.

Also from the MS site:

Product components:
•DVD with Media Center Extender for Xbox title
•CD-ROM to set up Media Center PC connection to Media Center Extender for Xbox
•Media Center remote control and IR receiver
•Documentation for installation and use

I'd guess the HW indicated is the remote/reciever.

-edit

Mike, you beat me to it.

[mls]

Ya, could have been the remote they were referring to in the article I quoted from. I don't follow much of what other products Microsoft has been making anyway now anymore (since I haven't seen anything worth paying for from Microsoft in almost 5 years now).

Oh well, whatever...

[Gemini1706]

Originally posted by SHS
My guest is that you did not read this forum very well it has been said min time there be no DVD support for the 350 TV output.

I guess you did not read my post. I said: NO DVD PLAYBACK with 350.
Next time instead of attacking me by saying I did not read the whole forum, try YOU reading MY single POST carefully. I said: NO DVD PLAYBACK.

Originally posted by SHS

I belive that for up coming Xbox 2 not the Xbox 1.

Wrong again. Extneder is for XBOX 1. Read the MS site carefully. No mention of XBOX2, and this thing is due this fall, so NO XBOX2...

Originally posted by stanger89

Why do you want to use TV-Out with an HDTV, that's just wrong.

I meant by TV-OUT any means of hooking the TV. Definitely I am gonna use the DVI (which is stilla a TV-OUT in my book
), Powerstrip+DVI is my plan..

Originally posted by stanger89

1G PIII with a decent graphics card (read Radeon 8500) should be able to do MPEG decoding in software/DXVA

That is the most useful reply I ever got
THANK YOU.
So P-III can do software decoding without FRAME-SKIPPING? That would be very very nice.
The thing is that I read in this forum that people suffer from frame skipping ...etc. (specially for PVR functionality) due to software decode.. Is that true?
Why people stresssing this whole hardware decode thingy? Because of lower end machines?


Any further help would be appreciated


Cheers...

[stanger89]

Originally posted by Gemini1706
I meant by TV-OUT any means of hooking the TV. Definitely I am gonna use the DVI (which is stilla a TV-OUT in my book
), Powerstrip+DVI is my plan..

Yeah you confused me there, TV-out in the PC/HTPC arena is pretty much universally understood to mean the dedicated S-Video/Composite/480i output on video cards. DVI/VGA/Component are generally considered the standard outputs (OK so Component is sort of a special case).

This is probably why you've gotten the impression that HW decoders are so important, all (I'd guess) of the TV-out references on this board are about running an SDTV via S-Video/composite. I'm not picking, just trying to give you some background on our assumptions.

That is the most useful reply I ever got
THANK YOU.
So P-III can do software decoding without FRAME-SKIPPING? That would be very very nice.

You're welcome, I try to make my responses useful, except of course when I'm trying not to on purpose

The thing is that I read in this forum that people suffer from frame skipping ...etc. (specially for PVR functionality) due to software decode.. Is that true?

It depends, dropped frames are a tricky thing, on this forum most talk of dropped frames probably relates to using VMR9 to display the video. VMR9 uses your video card's 3D engine and without a stout card can result in frame drops.

On your hardware I'd recommend sticking with Overlay since it doesn't require the same level of power.

There is another thing that can cause dropped frames is bad sync between audio and video, do a search for reclock (you should find a FAQ about it at AVS).

Why people stresssing this whole hardware decode thingy? Because of lower end machines?

The primary reason people want HW decoders is related to the TV-out (S-Video) on current video cards, and the limitations associated.

When you play a file with standard SW decoders the following happens:

1. MPEG is decoded to raw video
2. Raw video is deinterlaced (since PCs are inherently progressive)
3. Deinterlaced video is scaled to desktop resolution - at this point it would be output to a monitor/HDTV via DVI/VGA/Component
4. For TV-out - video is then scaled down to NTSC (720x480)
5. Video is re-interlaced for output to TV

Now HW decoders are preferred for TV out since they avoid steps 2-5, just decode and directly output the interlaced video as it was recorded.

The primary problem there with SW decoding then, is not the SW decoding at all, it is the extra deinterlacing/scaling/interlacing, done in the playback chaing when using SW decoding.

Now you will probably notice varying opinions about the necessity for HW decoding for TV-out, that comes from the fact that how well the deinterlacing is done directly affects the output. If perfectly deinterlaced, there would be little discussion, but video can't be perfectly deinterlaced since each field comes from a different moment in time, so there will be some quality loss when re-interlacing, deinterlaced video:

A good primer on interlacing/deinterlacing/progressive scan:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-10-2000.html

Any further help would be appreciated


Cheers...

Not sure what else to tell you, but my laptop (1.2GHz Mobile Athlon 4, with Rage Mobility) can play my Sage recordings just fine, it runs at about 75% CPU without DXVA (which would drop CPU usage) using the Alpha 1 Dscaler decoder (which is somewhat of a CPU hog).

I can't make any guarantees, but I can tell you I use SW decoding (Sonic Cineplayer) with my setup (Sage, Radeon 9500, P4 2.4, 36" HDTV via VGA), and I have no complaints. You're out nothing by trying your current setup.

[SHS]

Gemini1706 then you should have said it diff like I wish it had DVD playback support not the way you said it, No I wasn't trying attacking you it just way you worte you message.
Yes you rigth it was GeForce 3 but even it had no hardware acceleration in fact GeForce 4 other then GF4 MX and Go model had no hardware acceleration.

stanger89 is rigth but are min other things that can also cuase frame skipping the broadcast it self, poor cable, weck signel input and yes the video card it self, Raid setup and harddrivers and some case even some motherboard.
stanger89 (Video is re-interlaced for output to TV) this should be wrong being the only time it should do this is when it playing progressive clip.

[heffe2001]

The MCE Xbox extender stuff is definitely for the plain-jane Xbox on the shelves now. The 'extra hardware' is in fact the IR receiver for the MCE remote.

The thing that's most impressed me so far are the wireless extenders they will be selling. You can use 3 of these on wireless-g, streaming video to all 3. They say you can use up to 6, but the others would only be able to use pictures/mp3's or you run out of bandwidth...

And the thing that REALLY impressed me, they had dual-roslyn setups working around 2-3 months ago .

[mikejaner]

MCE2005 is slated to be released in a few months or so, and will have dual tuners and HDTV capability. Couple that with the Xbox Extender, and you have a killer package, except for the fact that the MCE box will probably cost you $1500-2000 initially with all of that functionality. I also think HDTV will not be a capability of the Xbox for playback, since it will require so much more horsepower.

[jptaz]

Gemini1706,

I definitely agree with Stranger89. I am not a real fan of the ATI cards because I am too lazy to mess with powerstrip, NVidia Drivers support 1280x720 on my TV so no need for powerstrip. I run SageTV Client on my PIII 733Mhz with 256MB of memory NVidia FX5200 to my HD TV via a DVI cable running at 1280x720. I use an Intervideo Decoder for playback. I used to use my XCard for Video out when I had a Standard Def TV as the quality of output was much better, but since I am using a DVI cable to my HDTV the picture quality is very good...note I have not tried the XCard on my HDTV via component input to see if it is better, but until OSD support isa added for XCard in SageTV Client I will stick with my current setup.

Hope this helps,
John

[stanger89]

Originally posted by SHS
(Video is re-interlaced for output to TV) this should be wrong being the only time it should do this is when it playing progressive clip.

I'm not sure what you're saying, whenever you play something with SW on a PC it's deinterlace (PCs output progressive), the TV encoder then has to convert that progressive signal to interlaced NTSC (or PAL) for output via S-Video. AFIAK, some Matrox cards are the only ones (asside from the Xcard/350/etc) than can actually play video without deinterlacing then re-interlacing.

[mls]

I'm not sure of the interlace/deinterlace is a problem anymore with newer vid cards, but then again I've never really had a problem with how mine work either... so don't know for sure.

I do recall having read something about the newer nVidia cards (and maybe also ATI) having a special mode they switch into for playing MPEG video, but only when in full screen mode.

I don't know if that was specifically for the monitor out, or the TV out, or both.

Anyone have more info on that?

[stanger89]

They both have a mode where video on the primary display is shown fullscreen on the secondary (ATI calls it "Theater Mode", nVidia "Overlay Mirror" IIRC), but neither switch to true 480i output, plus you get no OSD with those modes.