Picture Quality of LiveTV.. OUCH...

[Gemini1706]

I do not know, maybe I am paranoid, but looks like the picture quality of the HTPC LiveTV is noticebly less than actual LiveTV? Is this the case for everyone? Is this as good as HTPC can do?

The picture looks a 'little bit' blury.. hmmm.. maybe fuzzy... something like that... Even in slow scenes...let alone fast motion scenes..


1- I am using the codecs that came with the PVR250 card (InterVideo blah blah codec). Could this be my problem? Which codec you guys recommend and give best results? I heard that with SageTV (I am currentl using GB-PVR) the Sonic codec gives much better picture. I do not wanna pay many times for many codecs till I find which is best..

2- Will increasing the video rate in the LiveTV profile improve things noticebly? What are you guys gettings? Excelllent picture undistinquishable from actual LiveTV? Or is it a limitation of HTPC stuff?
What a good rate to use? 8000kbps?

3- I heard that GB-PVR does not do VBR (whatever THAT means.. lool).
Could this be the problem? Or maybe VBR is not a video thing?


If I did not find my self convinced about the picture quality of HTPC, I will only use it then to record shows offline (not Live), and use actual LiveTV for my daily viewing (hence, it is gonna be kinda like a VCR, no timeshifting ...etc.).

By the way: I am using a Radeon 7500 PCI. Is this limiting me in picture quality? I highly doubt that, since I am only watching stuff at 640x480 resolution.

What do you guys think?

Any suggestions wil be helpful...

Cheers...

[Opus4]

GBPVR has a forum too, so you'll probably get better answers about GBPVR there.

For SageTV, however, the recording rate and decoders you use will make a difference in the appearance. I can easily see blocks on a 2GB/hr recording, but 3GB/hr on my Xcard (hardware decoder) looks almost the same as regular TV on my SDTV. I'll let others give details of software decoders.

- Andy

[sub]

lol, at least he's spreading around the lovin' - he asks SageTV questions on my forums too.

[nielm]

blurryness during motion sounds like a deinterlacing issue (see www.100fps.com )... Which should be the same for live TV, or playing back existing recordings...Changing the Video bit rate will not make much difference for resolving interlacing issues.

Try adjusting the DXVA modes and deinterlacing in the Detailed Setup/Video section, and Reload Media Player to see the changes. One of these might give better results.

Try also enabling the settings in http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...=&threadid=284

See also here: http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...9129#post19129

[Gemini1706]

Originally posted by sub
lol, at least he's spreading around the lovin' - he asks SageTV questions on my forums too.

lol..

Yeah, I do not see anything wrong in asking about different products in different forums. After all, I need to know all the details before I settle with a final choice.

I do not wanna pay $80.00 ( ) for SageTV then I end up with the same features that a free software like GB-PVR can provide.

The thing is, 15 days trial period from Sage is just too short. Look at it this way: Setting up HTPC is not an easy task, let alone tweaking things and experimenting to optimize performance.
Most HTPC users are professionals who do this as a side hobby/project, so we only work on the HTPC during limited hours during weekends ...etc.
HTPC is NOT TiVo. It is not like a Plug and Play. It is an actual project that needs information, advice, experimentation ...etc.

So, SageTV staff should not get mad when somebody asks questions comparing their product to other competing products.
If you have a 30 day trial (at least) then I can experiment with it myself, without annoying people in thos forums..

(or at least reduce the steep price )



Cheers...

[Opus4]

First, I'm not 'staff', since I don't work for Frey on this forum. Second, I have no problem with you asking questions about comparing products, so I certainly wasn't upset that you mentioned GBPVR here.

My point was that if you want answers about how GBPVR works, you will most likely get the best answers on the GBPVR forum. The people here are probably more knowledgeable about how SageTV works, since that is the subject of this forum. So, for your own sake, you are better off asking questions about each product in its own forum. Therefore, I was trying to help you get the proper answers, not run you off.

- Andy

[falchulk]

Originally posted by Opus4
First, I'm not 'staff', since I don't work for Frey on this forum. Second, I have no problem with you asking questions about comparing products, so I certainly wasn't upset that you mentioned GBPVR here.

My point was that if you want answers about how GBPVR works, you will most likely get the best answers on the GBPVR forum. The people here are probably more knowledgeable about how SageTV works, since that is the subject of this forum. So, for your own sake, you are better off asking questions about each product in its own forum. Therefore, I was trying to help you get the proper answers, not run you off.

- Andy

Don't believe him!!! He is nasty to all the new guys and never helps anyone! ..........wait a minute, I thought we were talking about someone else. Opus4 kicks a$$!

[Opus4]

[Gemini1706]

Thanks a lot nielm for the reply..
I checked those threads you recommended and will try them after downloading the Sage Trial.

Opus4, I am very sorry that I misunderstood your reply
I did ask the exact same question at the GB-PVR forums also, and about SageTV also as sub said.

I hope you accept my appology.

As you know, many products are on the market, and for me to pick the one that best suits my needs need some advice, that is why we have those forum


Thanks everybody for the helpful replies..
I will try to do Hardware decoding using GB-PVR as discussed in the GB-PVR forums, plus I will try the above tweaks mentioned by nielm with SageTV.

I will also try other products, and if LiveTV is still not at an acceptable level, I guess I am gonna giveup the timeshifting feature, and just do regular recodings and use my HTPC as a media center (mp3, DVD ...etc.)



Cheers...


Cheers...

[jominor]

Originally posted by Gemini1706
Thanks a lot nielm for the reply..
I checked those threads you recommended and will try them after downloading the Sage Trial.

Opus4, I am very sorry that I misunderstood your reply
I did ask the exact same question at the GB-PVR forums also, and about SageTV also as sub said.

I hope you accept my appology.

As you know, many products are on the market, and for me to pick the one that best suits my needs need some advice, that is why we have those forum


Thanks everybody for the helpful replies..
I will try to do Hardware decoding using GB-PVR as discussed in the GB-PVR forums, plus I will try the above tweaks mentioned by nielm with SageTV.

I will also try other products, and if LiveTV is still not at an acceptable level, I guess I am gonna giveup the timeshifting feature, and just do regular recodings and use my HTPC as a media center (mp3, DVD ...etc.)



Cheers...


Cheers...

Try a different decoder, preferaably one that is hardware-accelerated. For me and my 8500DV, the difference was noticeable.

[kny3twalker]

buy an X card and use GB PVR

you will be happy with the picture quality then and have a On screen display

[stanger89]

Originally posted by Gemini1706
I do not know, maybe I am paranoid, but looks like the picture quality of the HTPC LiveTV is noticebly less than actual LiveTV? Is this the case for everyone? Is this as good as HTPC can do?

The picture looks a 'little bit' blury.. hmmm.. maybe fuzzy... something like that... Even in slow scenes...let alone fast motion scenes..

There are so many things that you can do so I'll try not to overwhelm you

1- I am using the codecs that came with the PVR250 card (InterVideo blah blah codec). Could this be my problem? Which codec you guys recommend and give best results? I heard that with SageTV (I am currentl using GB-PVR) the Sonic codec gives much better picture. I do not wanna pay many times for many codecs till I find which is best..

As neilm said, try enabling DXVA, that may help, further make sure you have the latest Cat's for your Radeon, they seem to have improved deinterlacing on my Radeon 9500.

2- Will increasing the video rate in the LiveTV profile improve things noticebly? What are you guys gettings? Excelllent picture undistinquishable from actual LiveTV? Or is it a limitation of HTPC stuff?
What a good rate to use? 8000kbps?

Somewhere 6000-8000 is probably the "sweetspot" for bitrates (that's around 3GB/hr). Depending on what you're seing and what your current rate it, increasing it may help. It's not an inherent limitation, I get a great picture, better than my TV alone can do (no deinterlacing on the TV), but if you have an SDTV/are using the TV-out on your video card it will be harder.

3- I heard that GB-PVR does not do VBR (whatever THAT means.. lool).
Could this be the problem? Or maybe VBR is not a video thing?

[/B]

VBR is "Variable Bit Rate", the theory is that the bitrate is adjusted so that more bits can be used on more demanding (fast motion) scenes and few on less demanding ones. The primary benefit is that VBR is more efficient, than CBR, however if you have the CBR bitrate high enough that it's not starved during demanding scenes VBR won't be better (at least not significantly).

If I did not find my self convinced about the picture quality of HTPC, I will only use it then to record shows offline (not Live), and use actual LiveTV for my daily viewing (hence, it is gonna be kinda like a VCR, no timeshifting ...etc.).

This is just a FWIW,

Timeshifting is IMO, the most overblown feature of a PVR, yeah it's nice but any DVR (Digital VCR) can do that. What makes a PVR stand out, is the intelligent scheduling (favorites/"Season Pass", conflict resolution, Intelligent Recording/"Suggestions", etc). Those are the features that allow the PVR to record what you want, whenever it's on so that you can watch it at your leisure. I almost never watch stuff when it's on anymore, I just let Sage take care of recording my shows and then watch them when I want.

By the way: I am using a Radeon 7500 PCI. Is this limiting me in picture quality? I highly doubt that, since I am only watching stuff at 640x480 resolution.

I'd say it might be, the latest generation of DX9-class video cards are more powerfull and therefore have more advanced deinterlacing capabilities, not to mention improved PQ in general. One example is the improvement I've seen with the more recent Catalysts on my Radeon 9500, deinterlacing has been improved, I find Sonic Cineplayer with DXVA right up there with anything else I've tried, including nVDVD3 (old beta) + ffdshow.

Another example is the DX9-class Geforces combined with the upcoming nVDVD 4. That combo promises 3:2 pulldown detection/removal via DXVA which could be huge for us, I can't wait to try it out. The upcomming Geforce 6600 series could be the cards to get for an HTPC (cost/performace).

What do you guys think?

Any suggestions wil be helpful...

Cheers...

One more thing I'll add, this is probably the biggest/best tweak I know of in terms of improvement/effort.

Calibrate your capture color settings! The defaults are bad, making the picture washed out and excessively noisy.

There's a link in my sig to a guide for adjusting it in SageTV 2, but since you're not using it yet, this one might be more helpful:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...ght=Brightness

[Gemini1706]

stanger89 said:

Timeshifting is IMO, the most overblown feature of a PVR, yeah it's nice but any DVR (Digital VCR) can do that. What makes a PVR stand out, is the intelligent scheduling (favorites/"Season Pass", conflict resolution, Intelligent Recording/"Suggestions", etc). Those are the features that allow the PVR to record what you want, whenever it's on so that you can watch it at your leisure. I almost never watch stuff when it's on anymore, I just let Sage take care of recording my shows and then watch them when I want.

I agree 100%.
Timeshifting is WAY over-rated.

I am gonna use my htpc as a recorder (not liveTV).
This way, i get rid of all htpc problems (stuttering, freezings, delay between switching channels..)..

Thank all for replies..

Cheers..