Frustrated! Poor Live TV quality (newbie)

[bo989]

Hi everyone,

I know this is long, but it'd be great if the experienced users out there could give it a read and offer me some advice. I wanted to give a complete description of my problem so I could get the best advice.

I'm new to the HTPC game, but I'm pretty knowledgable when it comes to computers in general. Unfortunately, I feel I've reached the limits of that knowledge.

My problems is with Live TV (not just in Sage, but in all the PVR programs I have: Windows MCE 2005 and WinTV2000). By quickly flipping back and forth between my HTPC and regular cable inputs I've narrowed it down to two issues:

1. Sharpness: My HTPC image is blurry and soft. It's a subtle effect which you can't really notice just watching the HTPC signal by itself, but compared to my regular cable signal, it's pretty obvious.

2. Depth: I guess you could call it "colour depth". I have a great flat-screen tube T.V. and the image has always had great "depth". The colours have been strong and vibrant and on good channels it almost seems "3D". This effect completely disappears when my HTPC is in the loop. Colours are washed out. especially blacks, which I think is the reason for the loss of "depth".

So, I know you can't help me until I tell you a bit about my rig. Here goes:

AMD XP 2400+
512 MB RAM
7200 RPM HD
MSI nVidia GeForece Ti4200
WinTV PVR-150
27" Toshiba Flat-Scren (tube/CRT) T.V.
S-Video Link
Cable signal split to two difference sources (that's how I tested this)

At first my Live TV wa horrible! It was very blocky/blotchy and I could definitely notice compression artificats in dark colours. That problem has been fixed. I'm currently at the stage where I have the latest nVidia DVD decoder installed and ffdshow. Plus, of course, the decoder that comes with WinTV2000. I've tried many different combinations of settings in SageTV under the "Multimedia" and "Video" settings, but the only thing which seems to improve video quality is if I set the decoder to either the nVidia one or fffdshow. I have to use the "default" setting for my Video Renderer because overlay just shows a black screen (not always, it used to show video on this setting before I installed ffdshow) and I understand my card doesn;t support VMR9/ I have now idea what DXVA is.

What other steps can I take to get closer to my regular TV signal? I haven't custom configured either the nVidia decoder or ffdshow. Maybe changing the settings of these decoders would help? And I'm not sure how to adjust the contrast/hue/saturation properly, but I have a feeling this could help with the depth issue.

I also hear everyone talking about VMR9 and I know my card doesn't support it, but I don't know what it does. Would getting an FX5200 and using VMR9 help with sharpness and colour?

Finally, I'm a bit ignorant when it comes down to how all of this resolution and resizing stuff works. First of all, when I want to adjust the resolution/bandwidth settings for Live TV do I have to do it in my WinTV software or can I do it in Sage? (Basically, when I have 3 PVR packages installed, how does the card know where to get its PQ settings from?) How do I handle resizing? I understand that the more resizing that needs to be done the bigger the impact on picture quality, but I don't really understand how resizing works and how to minimize it. Does my Windows Desktop need to be set to a specific resolution?

Finally, deinterlacing. I've read about it, but I don't think I have problems with it. Still, could it be causing my sharpness and depth problems? I think the answer here is no.

THANK YOU so much for reading through all of this. I really hope someone can help because I've ordered a whole bunc of hardware to build a HTPC box and I don't want it to be money wasted

Any suggestions (software or hardware) would be so greatly appreciated.

[bo989]

I forgot something. I don't know if this is relevant, but cartoons look better than other channels in terms of sharpness. Colour still sucks

[g808]

Have you tried calibrating your tuners?

Setup > Setup Wizard > select a tuner > Color Calibration

This may help with your colors and sharpening.

Upgrading from a Ti4200 to at least a FX5200 has helped many people too. A 5200 is cheap now days and should be enough for outputting to your TV.

Also running in overlay typically gives better PQ than VMR9.

[bo989]

Hi g808,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I've messed around with the color calibration settings for my tuner. But I don't have a good eye with that kind of stuff. I might succeed in making the colours more vibrant for example, but then the hue would be all off. What would really help is some sort of utility that could walk me through colour calibration or by which I could judge how much I need to change each setting. Does such a thing exist?

With regards to the FX5200: I've also heard a lot of good things about this card. Is it because of the VMR9 support? What is VMR9? Do you think this upgrade would help specifically with my sharpness/depth problem?

Any additional help would be greatly appreciated.

[bo989]

Also, is the 5200 the bare minimum? Would a 5600 for example be that much better than a 5200? Would an ATI 9800 be even better? I mean in terms of the problems I've been having.

[GbrNole]

as long as you're connecting with svideo it's always going to look crappy. your best bet would be to use a pvr350 although you will be limited with movies (dvd & divx) in that case.

the 350 output will look very much like your regular cable.

[GbrNole]

just to add another card worth looking at for svid connection is the new volari v3 and v8. both have very good tv output.

[bo989]

Hi GbrNole,

Thanks for the reply.

I was considering the 350, but didn't want to spend the extra cash or be limited as to what I could output. Maybe that wasn't the smartest thing to do, but it looks like I'm stuck with the two 150s I bought for now Will the 5200 get me closer to 350-quality output? Is there anything else I can do with the equipment I have (or at least without spending an arm and a leg)? I'm guessing that not many peopl ehave the 350, but it seems that the majority of people posting to this and other forums are happy with their P.Q.

If I do splurge for a 350, would it specifically address the sharpness/dept issues I'm faced with? Also, can you view your desktop through the 350's tv-out?

[g808]

Forgot to mention this before, but if you're using a s-video connection to your TV, then resizing using ffdshow to resolutions higher than 480 is useless since only component or DVI connections can handle HD resolutions.

Therefore, if you're only outputting to a SDTV using an s-video connection, then a 5200 should be good enough. If you want to try more power, then an nvidia 5700 Ultra, ati 9600 non-pro or pro, ati 9800 pro, nvidia 5900, or nvidia 6600, or nvidia 6800 are all good choices.

Typically outputting to an HDTV requires a more powerful card because it has to be able to handle outputting higher resolutions.

[g808]

You may also want to read this thread. It talks about good video cards for an SDTV.

[bo989]

GbrNoble: I've never heard of Volari before. Are these cards better than the low-end ones from ATI and nVidia? I'll try and find a review online.

g808: Okay. So what you're saying is that for SDTV, the best resolution is 480x480, not 720x480? Does it hurt to use 720x480 anyway?

To be honest, I don't really know exactly how resolution works when outputting to TV. Where do I need to adjust the resolution? In SageTV under "Recording Quality", in WinTV2000, or in ffdshow? Does my Windows desktop resolution make a difference?

Also, to be even more honest, I'm not really sure what ffdshow does and I'm confused by resizing.

Thank you very much for that thread! It helped a lot. I'm thinking the 5200 would be an improvement, at least in colour depth. I'll see if I can do some more research on the Volari though. Which card would you go for if you had my setup?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by g808

Forgot to mention this before, but if you're using a s-video connection to your TV, then resizing using ffdshow to resolutions higher than 480 is useless since only component or DVI connections can handle HD resolutions.

Actually I'll take it a step farther and say there is no point resizing at all since both your input and output resolutions are 720x480.

Now something I didn't see mentioned yet, but make sure you have your default recording quality high enough. With Sage (or any of the apps you listed) everything is recorded, even "Live" TV, so the default recording quality affects that. Try using "Best" and see if it helps.

For capture calibration, take a look at the Sage Community site, I put a guide on there for calibrating brightness and contrast with the help of ffdshow and the dScaler histogram filter. It can do quite a lot depending on how far off the defaults are. For example if the brightness/contrast are way off, everthing can look washed out.

Couple more things

Try settings Windows to 720x480 or 640x480. And also try setting the AR mode to "Fill" and then adjust the zoom settings like so:
Windows set to 720x480:
Horizontal zoom - 100%
Vertical zoom - 100%
Windows set to 640x480:
Horizontal zoom - 113%
Vertical zoom - 100%

FWIW, I've never personally tried those settings (since I run an HDTV) but those settings should eliminate any (at least most) scaling, which would screw with the image.

[bo989]

Thanks stanger,

Sorry, where do I set the horizontal/vertical zoom settings? Where do I set AR?

I'll try these settings out when I get a moment. Hopefully they help. I'll also check the calibration guide you've directed me to.

I'm probably going to upgrade my video card to, to either an FX5200 or Volari V3 XT as well. Which would you recommend?

[bo989]

I forgot to mention that my TV has component inputs, which I currently have my standalone DVD player hooked up to. I think the Volair V3 XT has component TV-out. Does this mean the Volair is the obvious choice for me, over the FX5200? Will switching from s-video to component make a difference with my setup?

Thanks guys!

[stanger89]

AR stuff is set in Detailed Setup -> Multimedia.

As for TV and such, is that an HDTV? If so then take a serious look at the Geforce 6600s.

[bo989]

Thanks stanger. I'll try that!

It's not an HDTV. It's a 27" SDTV (Toshiba) but it has component inputs. I assume the component input is better than the s-video input? If so, does that mean I shoudl definitely go for the V3 XT over the FX5200?

I'm going to use this HTPC as a PVR/DVD player only. If I decided I could afford $150-$200, would it be worth it? Does a $200 card necessarily have better tv-out than the $50 V3, or are the more expensive cards just better for gaming?

[stanger89]

Well now it's starting to get complicated

Is component better than S-Video? Yes, but how much. At the same resolution (480i) not much. S-Video itself isn't really limiting you much, but here's the thing. S-Video outputs on most video cards amount to little more than an afterthought. They are there to fill a feature hole more than for actual usage.

So, I return the question, do you think you'll be getting an HDTV any time soon?

[bo989]

No stanger. I won't be changing my t.v. for at least a few years.

[teedublu]

A FX5200 is a good card for standard Def TV-Out.
The Volare V3 XT sounds like an excellent card for a PVR, but I haven't used it.
I really don't see the need for an expensive gamer card for TV -- even HDTV. The critical thing is the quality of the TV-Out (S-Video or component) circuit, and the driver/card's ability to adjust for your TV's scan. While that circuit may be good on a hi-end gamer card, you're paying a lot (and the on-going electric bill too) to get it.
If you already have a FX5200: for your Std Def TV, I'd stay put. If you were considering buying a FX5200 versus a V3 XT, I'd probably go for trying out the V3.

TW

[korben_dallas]

Overlay caused the exact problem for me of what you are describing: blurry, soft, and low color temperature.

So I changed to default, and it is much better. On a 9800 Pro 128MB.