My SageTV Experience and Review

[mayamaniac]

This will be the year of the digital TV revolution as the Consumer Electronics Show starts. I see more and more people interested in a PVR systems, I would like to share my experience.

First of all, SageTV, along with other PVR softwares, is a complicated computer software. So to use it, you have to know computers well, technologically. There are a lot of things that SageTV needs to work with besides the common hardware on your computer such as the motherboard, cpu, sound card, video card, memory, harddrives, etc. SageTV also requires many not so common hardware such as TV tuners, a method to control your cable or satellite box (infrared or serial cable), a way for it to be control by a remote control (infrared or radio frequency), and several ways for it to output its interface to a TV such as video card outputs, hardware decoders, media set top boxes, etc. You need to know what hardware to get and how to get all these hardware to work with SageTV. So you have to dig into this forum and find the info you need before you start.

And then there's the software side of SageTV, you need to know how to configure all your softwares and operating systems to make everything work like it should. And this is easier said than done. You have to realize that both software and hardware setups takes a huge amount of time to understand and put to use. Depending on your setup and needs, the more complicated, the more you'll find yourself spending a lot of time in this forum looking for answers.

The pay off, if you do succeed getting SageTV to run smoothly, is great. It's everything that Tivo is and so much more. Look at the SageTV product features if you don't know what SageTV has to offer. I wouldn't call it a cheaper or more expensive solution than Tivo, because it’s really hard to calculate the value of either because SageTV requires a computer and Tivo doesn't. So SageTV has an advantage because of all the things computers can do such as surfing, music, games, email, chat, etc. But that’s also SageTV’s downside sometime, it inherits all the problems that a computer usually brings (virus, spyware, crashes, software and hardware conflicts, heat, noise, etc). After months, I realized that you have to almost enjoy tinkering with SageTV like if it was a hobby if you want to get into it, and I think most SageTV users are PVR or computer hobbyists. I know I'm one of them. I chose SageTV over Tivo because I like the many features it offers that Tivo doesn't. But if you want a simple PVR system that just work and not have to mess with it too much, go buy a Tivo system or "maybe" something like a Microsoft Media Center Edition PC. Your non-techie family and friends will enjoy it more. Stay away from SageTV, BeyondTV, Meedio, Media Portal, GBPVR, MythTV, Freevo, etc. Maybe one day, SageTV will work effortlessly like Tivo does for the non-techie people out there, but it’s not there yet.

I've been using SageTV for a good 3 months now. And through these last three months, I've learned a lot because I spent so much time in this forum. But without that time spent, I don't think I would've got SageTV to work like it does right now, which is a highly functional multimedia networked PVR system. I have a SageTV server in the living room and two SageTV clients in two bedrooms. They are running well after 3 months of troubleshooting. There's always room for improvements of course as there are still some minor bugs, but at its current stage, it was worth the time and money spent in my experience.

As of this moment, SageTV has been running 6 days straight without problems. There are 3 TV tuners, one of them controls the Digital Cable box and also outputs the interface to the TV (PVR-350). I have about 150 recorded shows in my SageTV library, which is over 100 hours of content. SageTV is currently recording two more shows at the same time; and in the next 48 hours, it'll record another 35 shows, mostly based on what I scheduled, some are what it thinks I like to watch, thanks to Intelligent Recordings. Also yesterday, my co-worker told me that the Sport Illustrated Swimsuit Model Search show was airing later that night. So I went to a web browser while still at work, login to SageTV’s web server (thank you nielm for this awesome SageTV plugin) and scheduled it to record at home. I'm now at home watching a basketball game (it aired while I was still at work) with SageTV Client on my laptop. SageTV had recorded it a few hours ago, now I can watch it while skipping all the commercials. And I just looked in my recording library, and the Swimsuit show is there.

I'm pretty happy with SageTV now. With the knowledge I have now, I know enough to keep it running smoothly. Of course, if I run into more problems, its back to the forum or Frey Tech support. I wish it wouldn't take so much time and effort just to make SageTV run the way it should, but for the people out there who are thinking about doing it, you are warned. But if you have the time and patient, it can be fun although at times you feel like this: But fear not, the forum is filled with helpful tips and people. So with that thought in mind, I would like to say thanks to the many forum members that shared their vast knowledge and hardwork such as Opus4, nielm, mlbdude, malore, Stanger89, Cayars, and many others. I would not know the things I know now without their help and dedications to this forum and its members.

-------------------------------------

Lastly, maybe the Frey folks are already doing some of these things or in progress of doing it, but here are a few things I personally like SageTV to improve on:

1. Better TV-out support for HDTV and SDTV, maybe partner with some hardware makers. This is aim to improve playback picture quality of most recorded shows, DVD, and other video formats. And support for HDTV recordings in the future as it becomes more popular. Of course this must integrate with audio outputs as well because the audio must synchronize with the video. Maybe support for digital audio like Dolby 5.1 and such. Update: There's a SageTV plugin for the Xcard now. Not officially support by Frey, but it's a good start.

2. Again, partner with some hardware makers and make a Set Top Box SageTV Client. The Hauppauge MediaMVP and MVP Client plugin is great, but it still requires SageTV Client on a PC to operate. So we need something that runs without requiring a client PC. Of course, SDTV is still the mass, but take HDTV support into considerations as well. Update: At CES 2005, Frey announced the SageTV Media Extender for SageTV 3.0 due in March, which is a Hauppauge MediaMVP that is officially supported by SageTV. Matt, author of the MVP Client plugin, confirmed that Sage will write their own plugin and not use his version.

3. Better music interface and tools such burning and ripping. Look at iTunes, J. River, and other great audio softwares.

4. Add remote scheduling support. Basically, integrate nielm’s webserver plugin . At CES 2005, Frey announced Remote Scheduling for SageTV 3.0 due in March. Not sure if they will use nielm's plugin, but probably not since they didn't use Matt's MVP Client plugin. We'll see if it is as good as nielm's.

5. Have more LiveTV options. This means the option to turn off timeshifting on LiveTV. Also, the option to make a dedicated LiveTV-Only tuner. And lastly to compete with BeyondTV, integrate LiveTV streaming to the webserver, maybe via a software tuner. I'm still running BTV just for this feature. Update: Latest betas of SageTV seems to support software tuners so not sure what this means, but it might be related to this request.

6. I’ll throw this last one in for the international SageTV owners: Native support for electronic program guide data for non-US folks.

PS. Finish and release Studio ASAP, enough said. Update: As the weeks and months passed and no updates of Studio progress, it seems this will not be released. Studio will probably be for OEM only and not for average consumers. What a shame.

Updates: So 4 of my requests has been in the works or already working. Not bad.

[DFA]

Spot on and thoughtful, articulate commentary.

I too would like to thank the same key individuals that you have referenced for their tireless help and insight. Frey owes them a great deal for the support they provide through this forum. Thanks guys.

DFA

[stanger89]

Nice post. Couple of comments, not necessarilly corrections, but maybe new info, or stuff you hadn't noticed/considered

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

1. Better TV-out support for HDTV and SDTV, maybe partner with some hardware makers. This is aim to improve playback picture quality of most recorded shows, DVD, and other video formats. And support for HDTV recordings in the future as it becomes more popular. Of course this must integrate with audio outputs as well because the audio must synchronize with the video. Maybe support for digital audio like Dolby 5.1 and such.

On the output:
SDTV is really the only thing that's problematic. HDTV output is easy, that's a huge feature graphics card manufacturers are pushing now, and it is or is getting to be really easy to get great HDTV output. Sage can already do this quite easily, as well as DVD playback.

HDTV recording/playback would be very nice though

2. Again, partner with some hardware makers and make a Set Top Box SageTV Client. The Hauppauge MediaMVP and MVP Client plugin is great, but it still requires SageTV Client on a PC to operate. So we need something that runs without requiring a client PC. Of course, SDTV is still the mass, but take HDTV support into considerations as well.

Ask an ye shal receive, check the latest press release, Frey just annouced a "Media Extender" at CES. Supposed to retail for $99.

3. Better music interface and tools such burning and ripping. Look at iTunes, J. River, and other great audio softwares.

4. Add remote scheduling support. Basically, integrate nielm’s webserver plugin .

5. Have more LiveTV options. This means the option to turn off timeshifting on LiveTV. Also, the option to make a dedicated LiveTV-Only tuner. And lastly to compete with BeyondTV, integrate LiveTV streaming to the webserver, maybe via a software tuner. I'm still running BTV just for this feature.

I'm not sure if or when it will be official, but it seems that with 2.2, Soft-encode tuners are supported for LiveTV only.

[mayamaniac]

The SageTV Media Extender sounds good. I hope it performs well or better than the Hauppauge MediaMVP, and not require a PC running SageTV Client. This product might be the answer to to my #1 request too, which is better TV-out quality. We'll see what this product is all about, hopefully sooner than later.

As for LiveTV in SageTV 2.22, yes I've seen my software tuner appeared in the Setup Wizard but have not tried to configure it to work. SageTV is running well for me now, I'm not sure I want to mess it up by changing things.

[Cayars]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

The SageTV Media Extender sounds good. I hope it performs well or better than the Hauppauge MediaMVP, and not require a PC running SageTV Client. This product might be the answer to to my #1 request too, which is better TV-out quality. We'll see what this product is all about, hopefully sooner than later.

As for LiveTV in SageTV 2.22, yes I've seen my software tuner appeared in the Setup Wizard but have not tried to configure it to work. SageTV is running well for me now, I'm not sure I want to mess it up by changing things.

The SageTV Media Extender uses the MediaMVP so I'm not sure it can work better.

[hchucky]

Originally Posted by Cayars

The SageTV Media Extender uses the MediaMVP so I'm not sure it can work better.

Cayars, do you know this for a fact? I wonder if there is some way for thoes of us with existing MediaMVP boxes to upgrade?

HC

[JasonJoel]

I think you might be slight off here. Or you are not off, and are simply not telling the whole story (for brevity's sake).

You certainly can run one MediaMVP without a Sage Cleint license. You can simply use the machines Sage server interface. This is documented pretty well in the installation instructions.

If you do that, and only need one MediaMVP client, it requires NO additional PCs or licenses.

Granted, if you need more than one MediaMVP, or if you want to use Sage on the recording PC as well as on the MediaMVP, THEN you need a Sage client license.

Jason Bottjen

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

The SageTV Media Extender sounds good. I hope it performs well or better than the Hauppauge MediaMVP, and not require a PC running SageTV Client. This product might be the answer to to my #1 request too, which is better TV-out quality. We'll see what this product is all about, hopefully sooner than later.

As for LiveTV in SageTV 2.22, yes I've seen my software tuner appeared in the Setup Wizard but have not tried to configure it to work. SageTV is running well for me now, I'm not sure I want to mess it up by changing things.

[JasonJoel]

Hmmm... DOES he know for sure???? He also said earlier today that it figures that a new MediaMVP came out since he just bought one (as in he regretted that decision)... But he may have meant simply that Hauppauge came out with a new one today (which they did), and that had no reflection on what Sage is doing with their extender.

Personally, I would like Sage to use the existing MediaMVP. I already have 3 of those.

And I expect (DEMAND) that Sage allows existing MVP owners (especially those like me that own MUTLIPLE Sage Client licenses) to use thier customized Sage MediaMVP software....



Jason Bottjen

Originally Posted by hchucky

Cayars, do you know this for a fact? I wonder if there is some way for thoes of us with existing MediaMVP boxes to upgrade?

HC

[stanger89]

Absolute 100% pure speculation here

But I was thinking, and to me it would seem like a good business decision for Frey to make a SageClient that works on the MVP, that is user installable on current MVPs, and make it free to the user (possibly work a deal with Hauppauge). That would seem like a win-win situation, people running Sage would buy more MVPs, and people running MVPs (but not Sage) would be encouraged to try it.

In reality, I'd guess a more likely senario is that (assuming the Sage MVP client is user installable) Frey would offer it pre-installed, as an alternative form of Client Liscence, and hopefully provide a way for current client License holders to trade in their keys.

[Cayars]

Originally Posted by hchucky

Cayars, do you know this for a fact? I wonder if there is some way for thoes of us with existing MediaMVP boxes to upgrade?

HC

Hmm, I could have swore I read that in Dan's announcement but I just went back and read "This small adapter retails for $99 per television ". I might have read "MediaMVP" into it as it is a "small adapter".

I did read on one of the forums a snapstream user mentioning he saw the new MVP software extender from Frey at CES and thought it was cool.

List price of $99 sounds about right too. I'd assume this would include a client license if purchased from Frey. Sounds basically like a way to pass on the cost of the hardware but sell more client license. Which is a good thing.

But to answer you question. I haven't seen it, touched it or played with it so no I don't no for sure either.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by JasonJoel

Hmmm... DOES he know for sure???? He also said earlier today that it figures that a new MediaMVP came out since he just bought one (as in he regretted that decision)... But he may have meant simply that Hauppauge came out with a new one today (which they did), and that had no reflection on what Sage is doing with their extender.

You mean he said that too? I made a comment here about the fact that Hauppauge is supposed to be showing a new MVP & that I just bought one. I don't know what the new one does differently (I've heard rumors about wireless networking from a few people, but don't care about that), so I don't know whether I ought to return mine unopened. I guess it would have to be a lot better and/or available "soon" for me to bother waiting.

As for whether the extender is an MVP in new clothing... hasn't anyone been to CES to see what it is? I sure would have thought it would be an MVP...

- Andy

[mayamaniac]

I don't own an MVP so I dont know how it works. But does anyone know, technologically, is the MVP able to run a SageTV interface with full functionality without requiring the current method, which is a PC running a SageTV UI? I meant is it possible to get the SageTV interface onto the MVP with lag free smooth menus and tranparencies, etc?

If that's possible, then sure, I wouldn't mind at all if it IS an MVP.

[Cayars]

Hey Andy if your is still not opened I suck it up and hold off a day or two before opening it. Just in case.

But then again, it's just another cool toy to have around and you know you can always use Matt's Plugin with it.

[Cayars]

OK since were on a could it be based on the MVP player, I can't help but wonder about two things. First off I have to say Matt's Client is really good and works well.

The only things I would hope to see improved by Frey on their client if in fact it is for the MVP would be to support AC3 audio via a replacement dongle.bin file (play those ripped DVDs) and support for DivX even if done via transcoding on the PC just as the native software does it.

[Cayars]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

I don't own an MVP so I dont know how it works. But does anyone know, technologically, is the MVP able to run a SageTV interface with full functionality without requiring the current method, which is a PC running a SageTV UI? I meant is it possible to get the SageTV interface onto the MVP with lag free smooth menus and tranparencies, etc?

If that's possible, then sure, I wouldn't mind at all if it IS an MVP.

No not that I'm aware of. Even the native Hauppauge software that comes with the MediaMVP requires this. However the client could be run "silently" in a process you don't see.

The MVP uses a modified version of the VNC software so if you know how that works you'll have a good idea how the MVP works for menus.

To get a pretty good idea how this would fair on your system (using Matt's client as a basis), install UltraVNC with the video hook on your sage server and on another computer on your client and then access the server via UltraVNC and you'll pretty much know how it will work without spending any money.

BTW, don't run the video this way as VNC is taken out of the "loop" on the MVP player when video kicks in as it has it's own mpg decoder built in.

[hchucky]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

I don't own an MVP so I dont know how it works. But does anyone know, technologically, is the MVP able to run a SageTV interface with full functionality without requiring the current method, which is a PC running a SageTV UI? I meant is it possible to get the SageTV interface onto the MVP with lag free smooth menus and tranparencies, etc?

If that's possible, then sure, I wouldn't mind at all if it IS an MVP.

Wasn't Frey rumored to have one of those working in house about a year ago? That's about the time that most of us went out and bought one assuming a sage client was soon to follow. We thought it would come with 2.0...it didn't. Then I read somewhere that maybe they were waiting for Hauppauge to release their public API. I kind of gave up hope after that.

In my current setup I modulate the client on the server throughout the home and use a dedicated client on my HTPC to drive a GWIII. My MVP is in a box stuffed away in the closet. I would consider dusting it off if I could install a client directly on the it.


HC

[Cayars]

Originally Posted by hchucky

Wasn't Frey rumored to have one of those working in house about a year ago? That's about the time that most of us went out and bought one assuming a sage client was soon to follow. We thought it would come with 2.0...it didn't. Then I read somewhere that maybe they were waiting for Hauppauge to release their public API. I kind of gave up hope after that.

In my current setup I modulate the client on the server throughout the home and use a dedicated client on my HTPC to drive a GWIII. My MVP is in a box stuffed away in the closet. I would consider dusting it off if I could install a client directly on the it.


HC

U should try Matt's client/plug for it. Works quite well. Don't let your box collect dust. Mine was collecting dust too until Matt released his client/plugin.

[mayamaniac]

so technically, there's no way the MVP can render the menus on its own, it must be captured from a client software running off a PC, similar to a remote desktop software. This explains the lag since I'm experienced with VNC, PCAnywhere, Timbuktu, and Windows RDC. But for the Mpeg2 video, it is streaming independent from menus and the MVP hardware Mpeg2 decoder is used for smooth playback. Is this all correct? If so, that sure explains how the MVP works. Wonder if Matt is working with Frey on this Extender, anyone heard from him yet about this press release today?

[Cayars]

Sound like you have a good foundation on how the MVP player works!

[hoep]

In Europe, we have the first commercials for a new pMvp (portable) box, which in fact is able to do divx, although there are no hints on hauppauges hp. It's written somewhere, that it has an 3" display and is able in combination with a pc also to record TV either to mpeg2 or mpeg4.
This would be an interresting new mvp hardware platform, but...
(€ 500,- ~ $600,-) isn't a cheapy..