Newbie with some (hopefully) basic questions?

[Drinyth]

I'm still on the trial version of SageTV. I'm liking what I see so far, but do have some questions for those folks that have been using it longer than I. My setup is an AMD 1800+ (on VIA chipset MB), 512 MB RAM, nVidia GeForce 3 Ti200 video card using S-Video out, SB Live! Value sound card.

I'm thinking a lot of the issues that I'm having may be related to my video card. It's quite old and there probably are more features and what not with newer cards. But doing software decoding, I figured that the card would be good enough.

My first problem that I ran into with my setup was getting it to display properly on my TV. Running my output at 800x600 or 640x480, my card wouldn't output to my TV full screen using the S-Video out. 800x600 got chopped off severely on the left and right sides and 640x480, while better still didn't give me full screen. I ended up using 720x480 (?) mode which actually displays a picture that is too large for my TV. But that is good since I can adjust the overlay and make the OSD fit and also adjust the ratio by percentage (forgot what that menu option is called) and make the actual picture fit as well. My question... is this what folks normally do? Do you all have Windows screens that extend past the boundarys of your TV? Or is my older video card not giving me as many options as I should be seeing? Since it's on my TV, I can't just extend the picture out to fit the edges of my monitor like I would normally using monitor controls.

Second problem - nVidia decoder related. I was running the InterVideo decoders for my video processing, but ran into an issue watching sports and other fast action stuff. The images were quite blurry in comparison to live TV (and TiVo, for that matter). It wasn't an issue with quality settings as it was even blurry at max mpeg2 recording. I traced it down to the mpeg2 video decoders that I was using so started playing around with that. I tried the CyberLink (PowerDVD) decoders, but that caused SageTV to crash (the whole "Send Error" to MS deal). I then tried the nVidia DVD decoders as a lot of folks seem to have success with them here. I really liked the normal nVidia Video Decoder. There was no blurring at all (with the regular nvidia drivers - the post processor ones still were blurry) and the picture was a lot more clear in general! However, when fast forwarding or rewinding the picture at times, it would produce some weird choppy/interlacing/tearing/stuttering effects. I'm not really sure how to describe it accurately. It looks like the images on the screen are shaking from side to side and seems only really affected in the horizontal direction? I tried switching my interlacing features to bob, weave, and bob and weave but to no avail. If I keep doing 10 second fast forwards and reverses, eventually it'll go away and the picture looks normal. But if I can't jump around reliably without having to do this, that doesn't help much. I saw the post about the quartz.dll bug in DX 9.0c, but haven't had time to try that yet.

Also.. with the nVidia decoders, I am forced to run in VMR9 and have 3d acceleration on or the sides of my video get cut off? Wasn't sure what that was all about. Switching to overlay or turning 3d acceleration off compresses my screen on both sides so that there are black bars on each side. I didn't try compensating with making the ratio larger horizonally - guess I can try that when I get back. The choppiness is still going to be an issue there. Again, I'm not sure if getting a DX9 card like the nVidia 5200 or something will fix this issues or not? I was thinking about getting a PVR350 to have the ultimate in mpeg2 output, but since it can't play back other kinds of video I'd like to stay using a video card's TV out.

Right now, I'm using the Sonic decoders which seems to be working great. I installed them very late last night so haven't had too much time to tinker with it. But the picture looks pretty smooth in sports and I can run without it getting chopped off on the sides and using overlay and without 3d acceleration. Also, if anyone wants to help define what overlay is vs VMR9... and what 3d acceleration actually does and what cards can support it, I'm all ears.

So that's my weekend in a nutshell. Everything seems to be working now. I'd like to experiment more with the nVidia decoders because it does produce a nice picture. Didn't have much time to do Sonic vs. nVidia tests (I'm only running the nVidia trial, too). Suggestions/comments? Will I get anything by upgrading my GF3 Ti200 to something newer? Anyone know why I'm getting those black bars on the left and right with other decoders and combinations of overlay + 3d acceleration?

Thanks all!

[Drinyth]

A day and no replies. I realize my first post was a bit wordy. Let me try and pair down my questions:

1. I currently have a nVidia GeForce3 Ti200 (non-DX9) video card. Would I be better off upgrading to a FX5200? Or would this only make a difference for VMR9 and pretty menus?

2. For those that run TV out of your video card, what resolution do you run at? Does that run larger than the size of the TV (meaning, are there sections of the desktop that you can't see because the desktop is too large)? Is that normal?

3. I'm having problems with choppiness/stuttering/interlacing running the nVidia DVD Decoders (the normal, not the post processing ones). This can usually be temporarily fixed by fast forwarding and rewinding a few times but will likely come back the next time I jump around again. Is this related to the quartz.dll bug? Does anyone else know a fix for this?

4. Various other decoders and combinations with overlay/vmr9 and 3d acceleration cut my screen off on the sides giving me black bars on each side. The OSD appears normal, but the video is chopped. Anyone know what's happening here?

[korben_dallas]

Well, for number 1, it seems the easiest upgrade is to an ATI card, since SageTV's VMR9 seems to tax the Nvidia cards more (for whatever reason). I'd think you'd be fine with any Radeon 9550 or 9600 class and above. Probably a newer 6200 Nvidia would be fine, but I'm not an Nvidia expert.

For number 2, I run 1024 x 768 svideo out of Radeon 9800 --> composite converter --> standard TV. 800 x 600 looked better for Windows, but 1024 x 768 seemed to play better with SageTV, and I don't need the desktop on the TV for any other reason than to watch shows.

For number 4, the Nvidia DVD/MPEG-2 decoders are by far the best quality, and they give me the least of what you describe as black (and sometimes curvy) borders. These borders do vary by show for me, and even sometimes change within the show. I chalked it up to my TV being 5+ years old and the conversion of s-video to composite.

[Toddly]

I have had a few setups on my system. At first I ran the video playback through my ATI 9200 card and the display was acceptable but softer than when viewed through the television just using the cable. My picture never seemed to fill the same amount of space as cable but I got the best display using 720 x 480 as the display settings.
The computer was to loud for our tastes so I have since moved it and now use the Media MVP plugin and the picture quality is much better. I like the remote better than the StreamZap and all is quiet. This might be something to consider if you are going to buy another video card. I also just use the computer for Sage so that was factored into the MVP decision. There are some limitations to the MVP setup but all I want my Sage to do is record television for playback.

[mayamaniac]

Unless you really need to use DVD and Music features of SageTV, hardware decoding is the only option to get good picture quality on standard TV. Either get the MediaMVP and use the MVP Client plugin or get the PVR-350, both from Hauppauge. Again, you will lose DVD and Music playback with hardware decoders, only MPEG2 files are playable. For HDTV, get the nvidia (6xxx series) or ATI (9xxx series) cards that supports component or DVI out.

[Drinyth]

Thanks for the replies. They're much appreciated.

Just wanted to give some updates. I guess that interlace problem I had with fast forwarding and rewinding with my nVidia drivers was related to that quartz.dll bug that is stickied on this forum. After downgrading this file to the 9.0b version, the nVidia decoders work pretty well. Good thing too, because I just ordered a bundle including this decoder from PC Alchemy a couple days ago.

I think my older GF3 Ti200 is limiting some of the settings that I can do with resolution and what not. But it does seem to be adequate for using SageTV - even running VMR9.

I still haven't figured out why I'm getting black bars on the side of the picture when using the nVidia decoders and not using VMR9. I did try adjusting the aspect percentages to no avail. Values larger than 100% actually seemed to make it smaller, as did smaller and negative values. Oh well... VMR9 works ok for now.

I thought about the 350 and looked a little at the MediaMVP. I think I'd be giving up on some of SageTV's potential as I may want to play some other formats and what not besides just MPEG2 in the future.

[kny3twalker]

there is also the X card
and it can do DVDs just not natively yet in SageTV as I understand it

[cummings66]

[QUOTE=mayamaniac]get the PVR-350, both from Hauppauge. Again, you will QUOTE]

I bought the PVR-350 based on glowing reports. I wish I had not done so. Here's what I'm currently considering. I think I might just buy the X Card and use it to do the TV output because I have not seen one report of the audio being out of sync on it.

You will find hundreds of posts on various forums about audio sync issues on this card, Hauppauge admits they have heat problems on it. They also admit there is no fix to it. They suggest a fan, if that doesn't fix it too bad because there is no other solution.

I had my card replaced for a different problem, the audio sync problems remain. I've tried CBR, VBR, different qualities of recordings and it just will not sync the audio reliably, sometimes it's right, sometimes it's off by a second or so.

The Mpeg file is right, there is never an issue of audio sync issues if you use the sound card audio instead of the PVR-350 audio and TV Out.

My advice, run for your life from this card, it's not a good deal. The picture output by the way is outstanding, and if you don't listen to TV it's well worth buying. If you like your shows to look like some old Godzilla show that's been dubbed into English this is just the card for you. For me I'm not happy with it's inability to stay sync'd, not at all. I wasn't happy with hauppauge's support either. I asked them a simple question. How come if I use the video card output and the sound card output on this Mpeg file the audio is in sync, and if I use the PVR-350's TV Out and audio out it's off by nearly 2 seconds. They could not answer it beyond saying to try a fan. I pointed out my case temps are 78 degree's F and I already have a fan on it and then they said that engineering is aware of the problem and that's all they had suggested as a fix for it. In fact the audio is sometimes off enough that you can unplug the audio from the PVR-350, plug it into the sound cards output and the audio is nearly in sync, that's just plain wrong. No settings in Sage will fix it, nor will any settings in WinTV fix it, it's a hardware problem that they can't fix, or a driver issue they won't acknowlege. In other words, every program out there, whether it be WinTv, Sage, Beyond, etc, they all will at some time or other have audio sync issues. Flee from this card. Do not consider it, run, do not walk for the nearest door. The only thing it has going for it is good video output, nothing more.

Buy a 150 and XCard, same cost better performance. I've yet to hear one problem with audio/video sync being off with it.

[Drinyth]

Black bars on my video in certain modes aside, I'm pretty happy with my setup so probably won't be buying a new video card soon.

But the Xcard option that you folks are recommending I'll look into in case I ever do end up getting one. A brief search of the forums would indicate that you can't use the OSD with the Xcard? That would be problematic, especially with my PC only being hooked up to my TV and nothing else. Seems like there are possibly some work arounds for it though.

Thanks again for your responses.

[Wheemer]

Check this thread for the plugin that's a work in progress: http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=9356

The OSD works.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by Drinyth

A brief search of the forums would indicate that you can't use the OSD with the Xcard? That would be problematic, especially with my PC only being hooked up to my TV and nothing else.

The OSD plugin link is above, but if you have no other way to access the Windows Desktop, you won't be able to see that through the Xcard either.

- Andy

[jptaz]

I would recommend the XCard or MediaMVP for the best output on Standrad Def TV.

Install VNC so that from another PC you can connect to it and make any changes or install new software. I have never had any problems doing this. Since you will still have current video card you could still set it up to view on the TV and just plug it in when needed.

John

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by cummings66

My advice, run for your life from this card, it's not a good deal.

wow, I seriously think there's something physically wrong with your 350. I don't have the audio sync issues with mine. And I really think the problems with the 350 are driver related as with each new driver released, it gets better. My biggest problem with the 350 is random lockups during playback. But with the latest driver, it's happenning less now, maybe once a week.

[cummings66]

I've been through 2 cards already with exactly the same issues, same delays etc. It's the card, no doubt about that.

What MB, Ram, etc are you using?

[Cayars]

Could also be something else in common like a driver or codec on your machine perhaps?

[cummings66]

From what Hauppauge told me, using all hardware encode/decode no codec's come into play. Only the driver matters. I've tried the ones on their site, I've tried the Beta CD drivers as well. It doesn't make a difference.

The audio will start in sync and by the end of a show it will be out of sync, sometimes barely, sometimes by a second or 2. Both cards had identical problems and I had thought under control by using a fan.

I'm thinking of trying something new in regards to cooling the chip, but I'm not sure. My ambient temps are 78 to 80 degree's F and at this point I and Hauppauge can't resolve the issues. They tell me that they've seen this problem, usually it's temp related, but since the second card didn't fix it they don't think it's a card being bad.

I of course think a product that does not work out of the box had design issues/defective. Why on Earth you have to place a fan on it to keep it cool is strange. I mean, some of the video cards have a fan built onto them because they know it runs hot, why they couldn't design the same thing into the PVR-350 I don't know. I did ask them if the heatsink would come off so I could place a better one on it and they said no. I asked them at what temps the IC would malfunction, they didn't know, only that it would and was apparently common and usually solved by a fan according to their engineering dept.

So, using only hardware the only thing you can think that would have issues is the driver, and if you do much reading on the Internet you'll see many people have had problems with audio and drivers solved them. Hauppauge tech support didn't want to discuss driver issues beyond insuring I was running the version off their website. The codec's as I understand it from Hauppauge only matter if you do software decoding, which I've tried and the picture quality is not as good as what the hardware does.

Personally I think I still have a heat related issue and when I get my new HD capture card (I hope someday Sage supports HD) I'll find another way to cool it. Been wondering if I could somehow get a small cpu fan attached to the heatsink and do better?

It's a love hate relationship with the PVR-350. When it works it's really great, and when it doesn't it sure does push the right buttons. I will say that the system is rock solid, no lockups or stability issues. If the audio worked right all the time it would be awesome.

[mayamaniac]

I've heard the 350 has problems with certain motherboards. I'm not sure if it would cause audio sync problems, but people reported some stability problems with it. I read that someone said it's best to use the nvidia nforce 2 or 3 chipset with it, but I'm using the VIA chipset and only having minor stability issues as I mentioned before.

Cummings66, have you tested on other machines besides the one machine it has problems with? It's the downside of using PCs, not all hardware will work with each other because there's no way to test them all. Maybe this is the problem you're facing. Another thing is what settings are you using in Sage regarding the 350. I have everything on default and have all three 350 settings enabled under Multimedia. In my system case, I have a large case fan pointed directly at the 350 for cooling. But you can get one of the slot fans which will work just as well: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...888-602&depa=0