analog tv in the future?

[mike_15]

I am curous what is expected when HDTV/digital tv becomes the standard in the US. At some point in the future the FCC is requiring the broadcasters to stop transmitting analog and only broadcast digital. I believe that this is supposed to happen in the next few years. I assume that the tuner cards I have won't be able to be used but will have to get new tuners or piggyback off the back of an external tuner, like satellite users do.
does anybody know more about this transition and how it will affect our systems?

Mike

[m1abrams]

Well it will be much longer than a couple of years before that. The FCC requirement is not a hard set as some make it seem. There is a little clause about a % of users/tv in homes has to be a certain level before that day comes. Not just a set year.

but once that day comes you can still use your old tuners with a STB.

[mikejaner]

Well, consider the fact that you have your choice of about Four different services at this point in your area, in most cases.
These sources are:
OTA Broadcast, both Analog and Digital in most major areas
Local Cable company Analog with some Digital in most cases
DirecTv, All Digital
Dish Network, All Digital

Everything is pretty much digital already, and yes, you will pretty much have to piggyback off of a tuner of some type. This is currently the only way, at least for the next year or two you will be able to tune these stations, and or broadcasts, with exception to Digital OTA.
Most likely what will happen, cause Microsoft is pushing this for their next MCE, is companies will come out with Tuners which will have Cable Card slots. These tuners will probably be released in sync with the new MCE, whenever that is. I have not heard of anything else coming out which will support DirecTV or Dish Network as all in one cards where you input the cable feed directly from the dish. We would all love for that to happen though.
Firewire is one other possiblity of recording in digital format without any tuners, but this technology seems to be on it's way out. Manufacturers seem to be less and less interested in putting that feature in newer tuner boxes.

What I think would be the anwer to most of the problems is if some company came out with a Component to ATSC converter box, which would input component video up to 1080i/p and convert it to a signal that any ATSC tuner would be cabable of tuning to on a certain channel. Kinda like the way RF modulators work today. This is of course assuming companies like Frey, and Snapstream follow in the footsteps of Microsoft and work ATSC tuners into their software.

Hope my rambling gave you some insight

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikejaner

What I think would be the anwer to most of the problems is if some company came out with a Component to ATSC converter box, which would input component video up to 1080i/p and convert it to a signal that any ATSC tuner would be cabable of tuning to on a certain channel. Kinda like the way RF modulators work today.

Or somebody could just make an PCI or PCIe capture card capable of hardware compression (to MPEG2 or maybe H.264) of HD component signals. But nobody (besides ElvisIncognito and a few others) seems to have any interest in either buying or producing such a device

[korben_dallas]

This is an interesting issue, because when dealing with broadcasting, so many groups have a stake in the distribution of the content: music industry, record companies, standards organizations like Dolby DTS NTSC ATSC dBX, television networks, movie companies, Hollywood, actors and writers guilds, ad infinitum.

Most VCR's, DVD players, and satellite/cable set top boxes don't provide 5.1 analog surround sound outputs. Most over-the-counter DVD's already limit analog video output to 480. And DVD-Audio is strictly decoded directly to analog speakers.. no digital streaming whatsoever. No doubt the next generation "HD-DVD's" will have the same kind of restrictions (if not more).

Digital broadcasting - ATSC in North America and some other international locations - may or may not be a catalyst for changes in the consumer video recording market. Ultimately, the VCR won out, but the quality of the recording was never that great. I could see the industry making some sort of compromise, for example digital-tuner capable capture cards would be throttled at certain video resolutions, peak video bit rates, and peak audio bit rates.

Throw in the CRM lobby, and then you really complicate things.

I'm pretty much with Mikejaner on the timetable for the end of analog broadcasting. Most of my family and extended family is middle class, and most of them are barely able to work the remote control, let alone be willing and able to understand why they would have to give up their current analog tv. I don't think you'll see anyone shutting off the analog feed until 2012 or maybe even later.

[sleonard]

I got an email from Cox cable in Phoenix, AZ not too long ago. I'm pretty sure it said that they are going 100% digital in the next few months. No analog channels at all soon.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

And DVD-Audio is strictly decoded directly to analog speakers.. no digital streaming whatsoever.

FWIW, DVD-Audio and SACD can be streamed over (copy protected) firewire, see the Pioneer 59AVi and TXi series for an example.

The one ray of hope is that, the FCC has been sued regarding the BS on the grounds that it (the FCC) lacked jurisdiction to mandate the BF:
http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/?f=broadcastflag.html

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by stanger89

FWIW, DVD-Audio and SACD can be streamed over (copy protected) firewire, see the Pioneer 59AVi and TXi series for an example.

I recently read up on the specs of the mini-hdmi encrypted interface. I hope when I finish my EE degree I don't do beautiful work like that for the purposes of evil companies.

Originally Posted by sleonard

I got an email from Cox cable in Phoenix, AZ not too long ago. I'm pretty sure it said that they are going 100% digital in the next few months. No analog channels at all soon.

Hopefully they won't charge you (too much) for the digital set top box. Guess you'll be getting an IR Blaster or USB-UIRT, huh.

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Or somebody could just make an PCI or PCIe capture card capable of hardware compression (to MPEG2 or maybe H.264) of HD component signals. But nobody (besides ElvisIncognito and a few others) seems to have any interest in either buying or producing such a device

AMEN, Brother!

Why, why, is this so hard to understand? Let's face reality here. From when HDTV was announced as 'just around the corner' it took about 15 years to actually materialize. It will likely take about the same time for 'joe sixpack' to consider adopting it. Until he does, analog isn't going anywhere.

-PGPfan

[ruel]

analog tv will still be around so long as manufacturers continue to make analog tv sets and particularly so long as cable tv providers continue to provide basic cable, basic extended cable, and digital set-tops where all of that allows for connecting to analog tv sets with a box (such as for "digital") or without a box (such as for basic cable and basic extended cable). i would expect cable tv and sat tv providers to push some sort of marketing to tell people they can still connect analog tv sets to cable or to sat boxes whenever the so-called analog shutoff for over-the-air broadcast tv actually really happens which is probably in ten years or so if the U.S. government continues to use the current 85% rule. last i read in a FCC press release from last year, most of the homes in the U.S. is on cable or sat tv (75% cable, 22% sat of all multichannel subscribers numbering 94.1 million households in total from those stats that i remember reading from early last year), so it's a bit of an uphill battle for the over-the-air switchover to be of significant relevance to most mainstream people it seems to me. hdtv is nice and the hype is very exciting but using analog tv sets seem to still be good enough for most people in the mainstream at this time. for perhaps a number of the folks who are still watching over-the-air analog tv, they may be thankful for the cable/sat option when push comes to shove as to whether to dump the old tv for a new digital tv set -or- stick with the good old analog tv sets which may happen to be sitting in each and every room in the home and deciding to subscribe to cable instead of replacing the old tv sets. this inertia of sticking with what still works could hamper the adoption of hdtv by many folks.

ruel

[jptaz]

I don't why people make a big deal about "DIGITAL".

DirecTV, DishNet, VOOM, CableCOs all have this...

What does this mean for me as a consumer?
Not a thing.

95%+ of all TV Programs are still just Digitized Standard Analog TV - basically a high end version of what we are all doing with our Hardware encoding in SageTV. Yeah I know some of the shows that being broadcast are actually being filmed in Digital to begin with so the Dish/DirecTV/ Digial cable version will look better, but it is still only a 720 x 480 interlaced Image and not 1280x720 Progressive or 1920 x 1080 interlaced HD signal.

While the number of programs being recorded in HD is going up I do not think that TLC, SCiFI, Discovery, TCM, CNN, USA, Lifetime, Disney and all those cable channels are all of a sudden going to invest in new HD cameras, HD processing equipment. There is not justificcation. That is exactl why I purchased a 4:3 HDTV and not a 16:9 set. I do not see the bulk the programming I watch all of a sudden going to 16:9 HD and I also refuse to pay a premium for something that is free. I spent $30 on my Antenna and get great HD broadcast over the air waves and it looks way better that the nasty recompressed junk that the CableCos are doing. Why do they do that? they do not want to allocate that much of their bandwidth to something most consumers don't even notice.

Ok, if my Cableco decides to drop analog distribution it means that I will go to the other cableco or they better be providing my digital boxes for free or pretty close to free.

Because honestly the only reason most consumers have cable is the ability to have all sorts of devices for a relatively low price. My parents have 3 TVs and 2 VCRs. They would never pau for 5 Digital cable boxes at $7.50 each ( which is what I pay per month for 3 of my 4 Digital Boxes now).

Now if all the cable companies adopted a unencrypted QAM policy for all non pay channels I would ok with that, because I could then start replacing my PVR 250s with what ever the best QAM tuner is at the time. And lets be real most of those channels will still just be 480i not HD so they could easily be used by my MediaMVPs.

Ok... Rant over.

John

[kny3twalker]

there will be DTV boxes available with analogue outputs on them
so you do not need to get cable or throw away the analogue TV

Or somebody could just make an PCI or PCIe capture card capable of hardware compression (to MPEG2 or maybe H.264) of HD component signals. But nobody (besides ElvisIncognito and a few others) seems to have any interest in either buying or producing such a device

this would be very nice
and the arguements about quality do not hold any ground with me
when I can have everything in near HD quality or just a few channels in pure HDTV digital quality

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by jptaz

I don't why people make a big deal about "DIGITAL".

Not sure if you mean the hype or the worry about the analog shutoff date. WRT the hype, it's just that, Digital is the buzz word these days, if it's digital it must be better, even though often times it's not.

WRT the analog shutoff the big deal is that you'll no longer be able to use your plain old SDTV. Of course that's not really true either, you'll just have to get an HD reciever box (like you do now with digital cable or sat). And then, and probably more importantly, most people have cable or sat anyway, so the whole point is essentially moot anyway.

While the number of programs being recorded in HD is going up I do not think that TLC, SCiFI, Discovery, TCM, CNN, USA, Lifetime, Disney and all those cable channels are all of a sudden going to invest in new HD cameras, HD processing equipment.

Actually they already have. Discovery (owner/operator of Discovery, TLC) has Discovery HD Theater, where they broadcast 24/356 HD, including most of the really popular Discovery/TLC shows. I know there's USA-HD, TNT-HD, TBS-HD, ESPN-HD, most or all of the movie channels have HD versions (HBO-HD, SHOW-HD). Most movies come from HD or greater masters anymore. We're getting to (or at) the point where most NEW shows are made and available in HD. Of course that doesn't get around the fact that a large chunk of new shows are CRAP, but that's a different discussion

[kny3twalker]

HD Discovery was one of the first HD channels for cable/satellite
at least one fo the first I ever saw

the stores love it

you'll just have to get an HD reciever box

or just DTV box
you do not need a full HD decoder box for a SDTV

[Lester Jacobs]

Originally Posted by jptaz

I don't why people make a big deal about "DIGITAL"...

I don't either. I have basic extended cable (i.e. the max channels you can get without a box) and that's what I intend to stick with until they pull the plug. I have no intention of moving to HDTV/Digital Cable/etc for the following reasons:
1) Most stuff I want to see is on all the standard channels you get with basic cable.
2) The quality is "good enough" on basic cable.
3) The only stuff I want to watch in high definition is usually movies. For that there's Blockbuster.
4) I'm not paying an extra monthly fee just to have a digital box in my house, especially since I'd probably need multiple of them. With cable I can hook up as many devices as I please with no increase in fees. (I'm planning on a six tuner card system, three for recording and the other three for SageTV clients). By reserving a tuner for each SageTV client, no one ever sees a channel change conflict dialog.

This decision is based on my personal circumstances. Obviously for others, digital is a "must-have". For me, I'd rather spend that extra money somwhere else.

Cheers
Lester

[korben_dallas]

I thought of something kinda scary. For at least the US users of SageTV, we are under the rule of the EPG. SageTV is mostly useless (in my opinion) without the EPG. So if for example Frey changed the EPG, which required upgrading to the newest version of SageTV, then that new version of SageTV could have DRM/BF filters.

Those filters could do all kinds of nasty things: encrypt the media to constrain sharing to only your licenced key SageTV boxes, limit encoding parameters/encrypt/change/corrupt BF content, require internet activation (like MS Passport) for transferring media to portable devices, limit how many times a media can be burned to DVD, etc..

[PGPfan]

If I understand it right, all the BF garbage is limited to hardware, ie. all future HD tuner cards, etc. will have to respect it.

However, as long as a software dev doesn't have to "reverse engineer" anything in the creation of their software there is no requirement to respect the BF in the software he/she writes.

-PGPfan

[Crazedz]

We just got a letter from charter about this.

They wanna give us this great deal $79 a month for 20 months for 3meg cable charter digital and the premium channels. a saving over regular price of $112 a month as they put it.

They make it sound great but then i'd need multiple boxes for my sage system as another has said and usbirt's plus theirs not that much that they have thats digital. And then from what i have read on their digital service the box converts the digital signal to analog anyway. WTF!!! converting to analog whats the point????

Is anybody elses digital cable being converted to analog from the box to the set like this? Whats the point to that?

Why not just stay with analog cable if thats the case it would be cheaper thats for sure. I'll admit i don't know much about the digital cable but this just seems like a way to con $$ outta people. At this time we pay about $54 a month for basic analog cable and cable broadband so i just don't see the point esspecially when with analog i can hookup as many sets and tuners as i want without all the hassles and kissing charters well you understand.

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by Crazedz

And then from what i have read on their digital service the box converts the digital signal to analog anyway. WTF!!! converting to analog whats the point????

Is anybody elses digital cable being converted to analog from the box to the set like this? Whats the point to that?

Component, s-video, composite, and coax are all analog video outputs.

Here's a blurb from Charter about the different kinds of set top boxes http://support2.charter.com/support/...ntredirect.asp

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Crazedz

Why not just stay with analog cable if thats the case it would be cheaper thats for sure.

Probably because they can cram 5-6 digital channels in the bandwidth of 1 analog one.