Comparison of Sage vs Other Canadian offerings

[asirota]

I am doing some market research to see if a SageTV powered HTPC would work in Canada. Can you all review the attached comparison and let me know if it is accurate... Disregard all the AlexTV stuff, because that's all up for grabs anyways... The name is definitely just a test name, for fun. The Excel file should be renamed from a .doc exension to a .xls extension to open it up...

[Lester Jacobs]

You might want to include the HP Digital Entertainment Centre (runs MCE 2005) in your comparison as well. It's a pretty impressive product and since it runs a variant of WinXP you can install all windows compatible hardware and software (depending on expansion slot availability). It also includes a completely integrated keyboard/mouse and MCE remote. Pretty much the perfect package from a typical end-user (i.e. non-tweaker) point of view.

So be prepared to defend why "AlexTV" is better than the HP Digital Entertainment Centre (available at Best Buy Canada). You may find it a tough sell.

I'm a tweaker by nature so I love SageTV because of its flexibility. However, quite a few of my friends have been looking at the HP system with interest because it is simply a plug-and-play solution which also happens to run Windows. Best of both worlds as far as they are concerned. So your system is going to have to match HP's plug and play ease of use in order to win hearts and minds.

I hope SageTV 3.0 comes out swinging with a lot of Wow factor...

Good luck!

Cheers
Lester

[asirota]

Lester,

Thank you for your insight... Your plugin makes this all possible here up "North." Of course if I take this forward I will be in touch to work with you, although I understand that Frey is working on getting Canadian data integrated (which is really a precursor to have this working in Canada)...

The HP unit while really nice, is about 2x the acceptable price point for such a device. I don't think people are thinking computer prices when they think of a device like this. $2000+ is too much to pay for a device that basically is a TiVO+. My opinion only, but corroborated by the 20 or so people that have seen my Sage powered PVR.

I believe that there is a lower end solution specifically for people that want this functionality but don't want to spend the big bucks. That's where I am aiming this thing...

I will integrate this unit into the comparison once I find some more details on what it does. A friend of mine was not overly impressed with MCE 2005....
-Alex

[mlbdude]

I would definitely recommend adding in an MCE05 unit in any comparison. Unfortunately after using it for a couple of months now it is much more impressive than Sage is right now. Nothing that Sage can't fix though if it wants too. Sage needs to take a step back and start thinking about form as much as function.

[asirota]

I have noticed that the usability and functionality are 2 different things when it comes to PVRs... Can you expound on what you think the major differences are? Even 1 or 2 super important areas of differentiation would do wonders for the discussion. From my perspective the licensing approach Frey is taking makes a ton of sense and is probably much easier to work with.

Any enterprising, motivated team of people can make Sage be very competitive with MCE I am sure...

And I am also quite sure that the MCE05 media centres coming out are pricing many people that would consider them, right out of the market.

YMMV, it's all about marketing at this point. And partnerships for anyone that wants to get into this market.

[mlbdude]

Pricing for MCE05 and SageTV are pretty much identical (not sure why you have to have a pre-configured MCE box since it runs fine on my old P3 1000 machine). With the new Sage 3.0 it may be possible to do it cheaper but then you must run Linux to get that cost advantage.

Usability and Functionality are different items. For example, generally SageTV has better technology and a stronger underlying technology. Only in a few areas is MCE actually stronger.

Where MCE kills Sage (and so far all the competition) is in usability and polish (the items you have to use all day every day). MS simply decided that was important and threw in lots of $$$ to accomplish this. I am sure this is something very objective to a certain degree, but frankly I would never put SageTV in from of anyone that is not super technical.

Personally, I tried REALLY hard to make Sage as good as MCE. Check out my SageMC STV. In the end though due to lack of support and with continual usage of MCE I just found that Sage has a little bit to go yet.

I think that Frey is aware of most of this though and is putting some though into usability for 3.0. I look forward to it myself.

[Lester Jacobs]

I agree on the fact that MCE kills Sage on polish. However I don't think Sage's useability is all that bad. I've set Sage up for "computer illiterate" people and they've had no trouble navigating their way around once I gave them soem pointers (this is with the 2.x interface of course, 1.x was terrible!). I do agree that MCE does have the edge on useability but this is not to say that Sage is all that bad.

What I think Frey needs to do is to leapfrog the competition by adding innovative new features rather than being an "also ran" which they seem to be slipping into. Right now the three big commercial PVR apps are all about the same feature wise (as far as the common Joe is concerned). What Sage needs is offer something that the common Joe understands, needs and cannot get from the other PVR apps. One such thing is complete parental control. I'm not talking simple V-Chip type ratings here, I'm referring to control of the complete PVR environment

Complete parental control would allow me as a parent to control which channel listings my kids can see in the guide, which recorded programs they can view and how long they can watch the TV for. That is, set up a PVR profile for my kids. At the same time I should be able to set up different profiles for Mom and Dad so that Mom only sees her favourite channels and precorded shows when she's watching the PVR whilst Dad sees only his channels and recordings when he's watching.

In effect, what I am talking about is the ability for the PVR to customise the user experience based on the current user. This type of feature would immediately vault Sage to the top and it something that no other PVR can claim to offer. Timed properly , release of this feature would give them a one year lead over Microsoft (assuming Microsoft only releases MCE updates once a year). Combined with the proper marketing, many parents could be persuaded to buy based on the ease with which they can finally control their kids viewing. All parents that I know would LOVE to be able specify what their kids can and can't watch without having to constantly police their watching.

Cheers
Lester

[Wheemer]

I agree whole-heartedly with this suggestion... The fact that all the settings including the current parental control are common accross the clients is not good. While logging in with a user name and password can be combersome, at least having these settings differ per client would be an easy way to incorporate it.

[jptaz]

Maybe I am too much of a Techie, but I am confused about what is not as usable about SageTV?

My wife is able to work it. While she is not computer illiterate she is also no techie.

She gets the basic concepts:

I hit TV Guide button to see the TV guide.
I want to watch a show in the guide I click ok button.
I want to record a show I hit the record button.
I want to fastforward I hit the fast forward button.
Last night she even figured out how to search for a program in the schedule.

My biggest obstacle was getting her used to the idea that the she can't channel surf like with the TV because it is slow, but now it is no big deal.

For a true computer or DVD illiterate I don't see how MCE is any better since most of them don't have a clue about the arrow keys or the enter key on a remote so the whole thing is foreign to them.

We only use the SageTV Default skins. Once I programmed the remotes and left a cheat sheet out it was no problem.

I truly am curious what is less polished about the user experience in terms of behavior. And please don't say it is just prettier. I have seen mlbdudes STV and it looks as pretty as MCE05 from what I have seen. Please provide concrete examples. Like.

When I want to watch a Show I only have to do x y and z in MCE and I have to do w x y z in SageTV.

John

[jptaz]

Originally Posted by Wheemer

I agree whole-heartedly with this suggestion... The fact that all the settings including the current parental control are common accross the clients is not good. While logging in with a user name and password can be combersome, at least having these settings differ per client would be an easy way to incorporate it.

I third the motion. One of the biggest annoyances is that the watched flag gets set one TV and then everyone else automatic starts where the last person left off. And of course I feel myself die a little bit when I see LifeTime, HallMark and LifeTime Move Network in the channel listings and the various shows my wife records from them.

John

[Lester Jacobs]

Originally Posted by jptaz

..I truly am curious what is less polished about the user experience in terms of behavior. And please don't say it is just prettier. I have seen mlbdudes STV and it looks as pretty as MCE05 from what I have seen. Please provide concrete examples. Like.

When I want to watch a Show I only have to do x y and z in MCE and I have to do w x y z in SageTV.

John

It's not as simple as "MCE takes less steps than SageTV to accomplish a certain task". MCE's interface just "feels" better. It's difficult to put into words but MCE has "flash" and "pizzaz" whereas SageTV's interface does not. Now they are both very useable but Sage certainly does not have the "flash". "Flash" incorporates things like smooth scrolling menus, menus that zoom in and out, very well done alpha blended interface, etc.

So, who cares exactly what steps it takes to watch a show; it's how flashy it looks while you're getting to the show. This is the stuff that catches the eye of the average consumer. Microsoft has used "flash" with great success in a lot of products. Take WindowsXP's interface for instance. It is "flashy" whilst Win2000's interface was "functional". You could do the same in both but not with the same style.

Now don't get me wrong, "flashiness" doesn't sell me so I'm not ready to switch from SageTV to MCE just yet. However that type of stuff will loosen the wallet of the average Joe.

Cheers
Lester

[Wheemer]

There are many things Sage could incorporate that add style. But I don't think they are at that stage yet. There are still functionality, stability and performance problems that need to be ironed out. Like the fact that MCE displays the mpeg2 feed flawlessly, without stutters, jerkyness or tearing. Sage still has to focus on the major core issues before adding the pizzaz. Hopefully we are in for a wonderful surprise when 3.0 comes out, however it seems some of the (slow) developement may be lost on the linux stand alone project.

[jptaz]

Lester,

I guess that is where we differ. I HATE the windows XP interface with a passion. I guess I am far to functional a person and see no reason to waste my time CPU cycles on displaying animations and pretty fades. I have XP on all my machines, but they all use the classic settings. I do agree that the eye candy does catch the eye of Joe consumer, but I do not think anything you describe is a "Usability", but more a "pretty" thing. I go to my recordings dozens of times and other menus and it just becomes an annoyance that they do the fades. When I played with MCE at the store these things annoyed me because I felt that they were taking longer to display what I wanted. Just like in XP how they have the pretty fade of the start menu and other menus. It only takes a second or two but with the classic inteface I am 3 menus deep before the fade crap is done on the start menu. It may not seem like a big deal, but why do I need a fade to launch and application? It is like working in a power point presentation all day. It is great for wowing a customer, but if it slows the actual process of getting somethng done I don't want it.

Unless there is actually a "Usability" difference. I.E. The steps involved to do common things or get information about what I want to do or response time in doing those things then I really question the statement of "Usability".

When the difference is the "flashiness" I would call it a "curb appeal" difference.

While SageTV might sell more software if they had better "curb appeal" it better not be at the expense of my usability. If I am waiting for a fade on the menus or the zooming I will be upset. So if they add this "Flashiness" it better be like Windows XP where I can chose to turn it off.

Just my opion.

John

[mlbdude]

Personally I turned off all the animation and sounds in MCE. Too annoying. Usability has nothing to do with those (those are more polish items and are very objective). It is the menu layout, navigation, and overall information presentation where MCE excels. You really begin to appreciate it the more you use it. Sage is not horrible, but to get out of the niche market of techies it is going to take a little more.

[jptaz]

mlbdude,

I agree that layout and overall information presentation are part of Usability.

So what of those things could you not achieve with your SageMC STV?

Or did you stop work because of underlying issues like VMR tearting etc.?

Thanks,
John

[mlbdude]

Originally Posted by jptaz

mlbdude,

I agree that layout and overall information presentation are part of Usability.

So what of those things could you not achieve with your SageMC STV?

Or did you stop work because of underlying issues like VMR tearting etc.?

Thanks,
John

I actually get no VMR9 issues on my system with any player with my ATI card. If I use my nVidia all is bad though.

There are too many core issues that I could not overcome with my STV to be completely happy. Some could possibly change in the future, but others I did not see happening (not playing WMV for example).

Ignoring the time constraints I have now, the biggest reason though is the lack of official support for it. At any time a new version of Sage could come out to make it unusable. After using MCE for awhile I was not willing to go back to the stock Sage interface.

However, I tend to get bored of things easily, so when I get more time and Sage has matured a bit more I am sure I will be back to it. MCE is great and just works, but I actually miss "tweaking" at times .

[jptaz]

I can see how those core features would bother some people.

I must be one the rare people who does not care about playing anything other than MPEG2 recordings from SageTV and MP3.

I also agree that the STVs being next to useless with new releases is a really bad practice on SageTVs part. Making a product extensionable without out maintaining compatibility in future releases is almost as bad as not making it extensionable in the first place. That is one of main reasons I do not use Custom STVs. I played with your first one and like it, but then it no longer worked right in the next release.

The limitations of MCE are too great for me since I have 6 Encoders and numerous clients and MediaMVPs, but I can understand the desire for a cleaner interface.

John

[Lester Jacobs]

[QUOTE=asirota]...
And I am also quite sure that the MCE05 media centres coming out are pricing many people that would consider them, right out of the market.
...QUOTE]

Check again. I have built both Sage and MCE boxes and I cannot see any significant difference in price. As mlbdude said, you don't have to buy a preconfigured MCE box. MCE 2005 software is freely available from a number of Canadian merchants (e.g. Canada Computers ).

Let's compare software from a system integrator point of view (all prices Canadian):

Sage
WinXP Home - $119
SageTV - $64 (assuming you get a distributor discount)
Remote - $30 (this is the price difference I believe between the PVR 150 with a remote vs the MCE edition without the remote)
Total - $213

MCE
WinXP Media Center - $159
Remote - $49
Total - $208

So, from a software pricing perspective they're pretty much identical. They'll both run pretty much on the same hardware so hardware cost differences is not a factor.

Support is where it gets interesting. I'm the general support person for my friends and family. Some have SageTV and some have MCE. My limited sampling suggests that SageTV is more difficult to install and requires more support than MCE.

If you are going into the business of selling PVRs. I'd say sell MCE instead of Sage if you want to reduce support headaches (given their similar pricing). Yes, Sage has more features but the people you're selling are not likely to care about those features that much. They're more likely to care that MCE looks snazzier and can be a showpiece for their friends.

If you're looking for a flexible PVR system for yourself then buy SageTV. That's why I run SageTV. It allows me to set things up exactly as I would like without having to be stuck along whatever path MS decided was "best" for me.

Once again, I'm hoping SageTV 3.0 changes all this so that I can once again start recommending it to my friends.

Cheers
Lester

[tbil99]

I just tried SageTV after having stability troubles with BeyondTV.
Here are my opinions. BeyondTV has a better UI and since I am using their remote control, it works much better. It was also a snap to install (pardon the pun). Unfortunately, there were major stability issues which make it next to useless. I will try to resolve them after I determine that it is not bad hardware related.

SageTV took me a full day to get working the way I liked it. I have had no stability issues. I wasn't sure what I was able to modify as far as directories etc., so I was forunate enough to have some very good forum support. The plug-in for the EPG seems to work great (1 tuner is all I have) but it took me a while to get it running. I found I was constantly hitting the wrong remote button (it's a firefly remote which may explain things) but I think the same thing would occur if I was using the keyboard too. I like many of the features on SageTV but I'm not sure if I will use them.

Athlon 64 3200+
Asus K8V SE Deluxe
1024M DDR400 Memory
ATI Radeon 9200SE 128M Video
160G WD SATA Hard Drive
1.44M Floppy Drive
Pioneer DVR-108 DVD burner
Firefly PC Remote
Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-150
Windows XP Pro with SP2

[Wheemer]

Have you tried any of the customizations, such as SageMC? It looks and functions much better than BTV, in my opinion.